339 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

cant we just test them with a GH limit of 3?
Quick Change, test live, if its too strong or too week then change it back,
also like SRM/LRMs you can have ERLL set to 3GH and LPL set to 2GH and have both attached to each other,

Because you can mount 6 for 24 tons and 6 slots for 33 + 33 at 740m, vs 5 is erlls at 25 tons and 10 slots for 28 + 16 at 675m.

What you're talking about is a 50% increase in damage/tic per burn. Plus 5x CERLL on the high mounted HBK IIC would be superior than the 70 ton GHR with 5x is erlls.

[Andi Nagasia]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Because you can mount 6 for 24 tons and 6 slots for 33 + 33 at 740m, vs 5 is erlls at 25 tons and 10 slots for 28 + 16 at 675m.

What you're talking about is a 50% increase in damage/tic per burn. Plus 5x CERLL on the high mounted HBK IIC would be superior than the 70 ton GHR with 5x is erlls.

they do the same(almost) Damage/Tick, increasing GH to 3(Tonnage/Cits Aside(3 of Each)
would give you the same Viability, the difrence is the Clan ERLL can fire for longer,
but if both hold for 1.25 then they will do almost the same damage,

a MAD with 15DHS +3ERLL, has 51% cooling Efficiency,
a TBR with 19DHS +3ERLL, has 51% cooling Efficiency(+4DHS mean 4Tons/8Crits)
so you need 1more Ton & 5more Crits just to match Cooling efficiency,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 March 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Okay. So how about this -

drop CERLL damage to 10, increase heat by 1, drop duration to 1.3 and increase GH to 4. However make GH penalty double the IS GH penalty. This requires more DHS, which offsets the smaller size and prevents moving viable alphas up to 5 or 6 at once.

Reduce IS ERLL to 1.15 burn. Heat bump of 0.25 and increase ghost heat penalties slightly.

Reduce cycle time on IS LL and CLPL by .25 to increase DPS (without promoting boating cuz heat), reduce heat in IS and Clan MPLs slightly and IS spl significantly.

That keeps erlls more viable for long range like for both while leaving them clearly inferior in mid and brawl to pulse and regual lasers.

Rough numbers because I'm at work on my phone but has the potential to work. The gateway for PPCs is that velocity is low enough that good players are needs to be accurate at range. I'm of the opinion that PPCs should usually beat lasers in skilled hands for trades and this keeps with that as well. It edges the LL closer to the IS LPL for brawling while keeping it inferior cuz 2 tons lighter.

Possibly raise GH on IS LL to 5, or have IS LL have a very gentle GH curve.

CMPLs are in a good space with small recycle buff. Cooler, good brawling range. Just that SPLs are so amazing. However with better DPS the MPL would have a better brawl profile.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Okay. So how about this -

drop CERLL damage to 10, increase heat by 1, drop duration to 1.3 and increase GH to 4. However make GH penalty double the IS GH penalty. This requires more DHS, which offsets the smaller size and prevents moving viable alphas up to 5 or 6 at once.

Why a Spooky Heat limit of 4? I'd rather have it at 3 and keep the heat as-is.

[MischiefSC]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

they do the same(almost) Damage/Tick, increasing GH to 3(Tonnage/Cits Aside(3 of Each)
would give you the same Viability, the difrence is the Clan ERLL can fire for longer,
but if both hold for 1.25 then they will do almost the same damage,

a MAD with 15DHS +3ERLL, has 51% cooling Efficiency,
a TBR with 18DHS +3ERLL, has 51% cooling Efficiency(+4DHS mean 4Tons/8Crits)
so you need 1more Ton & 5more Crits just to match Cooling efficiency,

Except, again, 3 tons, 3 slots, more damage for that cooling efficiency, better range and doesn't address the concern of the long burn time. While in Div A championship 0.25 burn time is relevant for the other 99.99% of the games population it isn't.

[Andi Nagasia]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

Except, again, 3 tons, 3 slots, more damage for that cooling efficiency, better range and doesn't address the concern of the long burn time. While in Div A championship 0.25 burn time is relevant for the other 99.99% of the games population it isn't.

ok longer range? well IS ERLL has 675m where as Clan has 740, a Difference of 65m, so not much,
most IS mechs get +10% Energy range(675 +10% = 742) so they kinda have the same Range,
-
both weapons have the same Damage Per Tick, so if held for 1.25sec they will do the same damage 9,
but Clan hold for longer, but they pay for it in Cooling in this case 1Ton & 5Crits worth of Cooling,
-
is the Ability to hold your Laser for 0.25Sec longer for 2Damage worth 1Ton & 5Crits?

[InspectorG]

EZ Fix:

C-ERLL, Damage 5(Yes, i said 5), same range, 1 sec duration.

IS-LL, as is.

IS-ERLL, as is, but maybe raise heat.

Why 5 damage on C-ER-LL?
Cuz they are 4 tons, 1 slot, and can usually be boated.

[Andi Nagasia]

InspectorG, on 18 March 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

EZ Fix:

C-ERLL, Damage 5(Yes, i said 5), same range, 1 sec duration.

IS-LL, as is.

IS-ERLL, as is, but maybe raise heat.

Why 5 damage on C-ER-LL?
Cuz they are 4 tons, 1 slot, and can usually be boated.

read above to why i would say this is a very bad idea,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 March 2017 - 03:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

If you want to see what I have in mind for lasers, you can take a peak here. Note, everything but lasers and PPCs is still a work-in-progress, and even then I'm still tweaking things as new considerations come to light.

Repost.

[MischiefSC]

I don't mind leaving it as it is and bumping GH by 1 but leaving GH penalty where it is for 4th or higher laser.

[InspectorG]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

read above to why i would say this is a very bad idea,

Well.

I was thinking in cases of boating.

C-ERLL and IS-ERLL have similar range and damage per tick you say.

But what happens when comparing more than one?

4 C-ERLL
16 tons, 4 slots, 20 damage... Maybe i thought to equalize it with ERML, 7 damage? Total of 28? (Cant remember its an old idea)

4 IS-ERLL
20 tons, 8 slots, 32 damage

In context of C-DHS getting more slot value.

Anyhow, maybe 7 damage for C-ERLL. Idea being dropping C-ERLL duration and damage with mindset of how much easier it can be boated(Gigadrill).
Could, also factor in TC(Range / Crit) but i guess those are getting nerfed soon...

[MischiefSC]

Also keep in mind that Clans get 7 free slots from Endo out of the gate and all weapons are smaller, meaning a small cost in tonnage and spaces is irrelevant if they get better potential performance.

[Andi Nagasia]

MischiefSC, on 18 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Also keep in mind that Clans get 7 free slots from Endo out of the gate and all weapons are smaller, meaning a small cost in tonnage and spaces is irrelevant if they get better potential performance.

are we balancing CERLLs now or everything,
i agree you cant balance CERLL in a Vacuum, you need to look at everything,
but their are other things to consider in that case, you cant just look at Endo vs CEndo or Ferro vs CFerro,
they arnt balanced to each other, they are balanced by being a single system as part of the whole,

[InspectorG]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

are we balancing CERLLs now or everything,
i agree you cant balance CERLL in a Vacuum, you need to look at everything,
but their are other things to consider in that case, you cant just look at Endo vs CEndo or Ferro vs CFerro,
they arnt balanced to each other, they are balanced by being a single system as part of the whole,

Honestly, this late in the game, why not just equalize all the damage between IS/C, equalize most ranges? Give IS a slight duration/heat advantage.

Clan superiority would be expressed via weight savings and slot savings.

Equalize XL engines, Clans save a slot per ST.

SL/SPL/MG/Flamer type weaons have 200m optimal with a very sharp drop to zero damage at 250m.

LRMs have a 10sec cooldown, amongst other things that allow them to be backup weapons instead of boated.

Other boating of weapons can be resolved on the Weapon Groups by limiting what can be grouped and a hard 1sec cooldown between group firings(re-tard Macros). Certain chassis/Variants would be allowed bigger Groupings, others kept to a smaller standard.

Edited by InspectorG, 18 March 2017 - 03:50 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

are we balancing CERLLs now or everything,
i agree you cant balance CERLL in a Vacuum, you need to look at everything,
but their are other things to consider in that case, you cant just look at Endo vs CEndo or Ferro vs CFerro,
they arnt balanced to each other, they are balanced by being a single system as part of the whole,

Except that whole isn't balanced save by quirks adding structure and weapon buffs to some mech but not others. IS erlls aren't really that viable outside of 2 heavily quirked chassis. You can't balance cerlls to how is erlls work on the BLR and GHR because the other advantages (more tonnage/slots available, cxl) would invalidate even those two variants and widen the balance gap vs every other mech.

Is the solution to quirk up 2 Clan mech for erlls?

I'd rather try to rebalance lasers overall, shortening burn time a bit (the original complaint) while raising heat/ghost heat and reducing damage.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

FFS, what is it with thickheaded people today, it doesn't mattter how much its used, no one is saying it shouldn't be buffed, what they are arguing about is the best way to do it. Sure you could buff duration, but that is a weird scenario for a couple of reasons:

• All the other Clan lasers have a decently longer duration than their IS counterparts.
  
• Trying to balance them at both ends of the spectrum ends up being difficult (basically 2x2 setups could end up being too powerful while 2x2x2 ends up still being weak).

Thus, the easiest scenario is to start by bumping the ghost heat limit FIRST, and continuing from there.

Insult me if you wish, but I finally got a coherent answer from you which I mostly actually agree with. The exceptions being, I think the duration should be reduced first. And there are people, in this thread if you so choose to go back and read, that dont believe the weapon should be buffed and its fine as is or needs a nerf!

Edited by SilentWolff, 18 March 2017 - 04:32 PM.

[I R O N]

gay!

[Tarogato]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

And as I said, its not used in any COMP matchs. Theres a reason for that.

You keep saying this, but there haven't been very many opportunities to actually use cERLL. It's good in 8v8 or larger in high tonnage drops on large open maps like Frozen City, Polar, and Alpine. Almost every other map in the game is more of a mid-range or brawl map. I don't think the problem is the weapon system, I think the problem is the lack of maps that allow you to leverage its niche.

[Phoolan Devi]

MischiefSC, on 16 March 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

That's been the case since TT. Clans attract a certain kind of player - the kind who literally don't want balance, they want a game as broken in their favor as a single player game is but have actual people to play against who are compelled to show up. Then they complain when nobody wants to play against them, saying 'but that's just how the game is'.

That's just BS and you know it! As you certainly know as well is, that being a clan warrior involved certain rules that weren't and wouldn't be broken. This was the way of balance in TT. To simply state that in TT and BT lore balance was broken makes me wonder if those ppl stating this even know either one!

Quote

Some people want challenging environments that involve skill vs skill being the deciding factor. Some people want the pretext of that, but slanted strongly in their favor, so they can pretend they have skills that they lack the will, effort or competency to actually acquire for themselves. One thing you'll never see is a top tier player asking for lore balance. They have too much self respect.

Wow.....that really made me giggle now what you have written about top tier players! That's then the reason why so called comp teams stream to the side which has the disadvantages, right? Thanks for the laugh!

[Phoolan Devi]

Kaeb Odellas, on 15 March 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

Battletech lore has never made a lick of sense and is straight up bad in many places. Let's not treat it like some sacred inviolable religious text when it was heavily flawed to begin with.

Just because you don't understand it or haven't read the books doesn't mean it's bad, broken or lacks of sense!