55 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Let me say this without so much as a pinch of salt:

It's because they're trying to make a profit from the new content that they're delivering. They figure that this whole process of creating a skill tree has cost them x amount of dollars. They also need to sell y amount of dollars worth of premium time + c-bill boosters per month to meet their budget.

Russ was very open about this during the last NGNG podcast. PGI wants to make money off of this. They don't want to refund the players so much that nobody will buy premium time for the next 6 months.

It's not that they don't know how to refund 91 skill point per mastered mech and 72 skill points per elited mech, or whatever. They're trying to maximize their profits without upsetting too many players. Hence the past few weeks of trying to negotiate with the players about what a skill point should cost.

EDIT: Also note the lack of premium time in the new mech packs. PGI trying to rethink their business model for 2017.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 16 March 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 16 March 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

entitlement? Get of your horse. It's not like i can have a master skill on it without buying 2 more (expensive) variants.
And i am sure as [Redacted] that PGI came up with that stupid rule of 3 and not me. I do not need three direwolfs, i wanted one with master skill. In short, a [Redacted] leveling system.

You knew the system, you still bought in. Did you need to? Did you have to? No. Is it a bad system? Yup. You still had a choice. You chose poorly.

Stop with the victim bullcrap.

Alistair Winter, on 16 March 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Let me say this without so much as a pinch of salt:

It's because they're trying to make a profit from the new content that they're delivering. They figure that this whole process of creating a skill tree has cost them x amount of dollars. They also need to sell y amount of dollars worth of premium time + c-bill boosters per month to meet their budget.

Russ was very open about this during the last NGNG podcast. PGI wants to make money off of this. They don't want to refund the players so much that nobody will buy premium time for the next 6 months.

It's not that they don't know how to refund 91 skill point per mastered mech and 72 skill points per elited mech, or whatever. They're trying to maximize their profits without upsetting too many players. Hence the past few weeks of trying to negotiate with the players about what a skill point should cost.

EDIT: Also note the lack of premium time in the new mech packs. PGI trying to rethink their business model for 2017.

So let me make sure I got this this right...

A business is trying to maintain a profit? How diabolical! They should do it for the art, and just provide it for everyone to enjoy!

Edited by draiocht, 20 March 2017 - 03:15 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Alan Davion]

Michael Kail, on 16 March 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Fairness is important to people who play games. If you are not 100% fair to your customers, you won't have many customers.

Personally I think fairness of any kind went the way of the dodo the nano-second the Clans were brought into the game.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Amsro, on 16 March 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

Lets be honest happy people buy stuff, so whats a few hundred million cbills matter to PGI if I decide to buy another pack or 2 of mechs or MC or resistance hero mechs. Not that i need to spend more $$ yet.

I am not dead set on a gxp + c-bills refund. I want my progression and the stuff i invested back,
If it's in the format of c-bills (costs for nodes) it's okay, if it's voucher for nodes, still okay.

Amsro, on 16 March 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

I know we are all a little salty still, due to recent and not so recent things.

But lets try to play nice if we can.

I respectfully decline. If he's just here to bump his postcount with insults he can go back to offtopic and sh*tpost there.

For starters.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Because mastery in the old system is not equal to mastery in the new system. So why should PGI give 30ish extra nodes for free?

Compare a pleb "i dunn care i just want to play the mech" one time purchase stock DWF on basic skill level

DWF-B 17,838,493 c-bills

Basic skill level 21,500 mech XP

to a Mastered fully kitted and moded DWF-B dual guass er-Mlas build

DWF-B 17,838,493 c-bills

Basic skill level 21,500 mech XP
Elite skill level 21,500 mech XP
Master skill level 21.500 mech XP

DWF-A 17,149,906 c-bills

Basic skill level 21,500 mech XP


DWF-Prime 17,785,963 c-bills

Basic skill level 21,500 mech XP


Radardeprivation module

15.000 GXP
6,000,000 C-bills

Seismic Sensor module

17,500 GXP
6,000,000 C-bills

Gaussrifle cooldown module

3,500 GXP
3.000.000 C-bills.

C-ERM Laser range module

3,500 GXP
3.000.000 C-bills

UAV Upgrade

15.000 GXP

Coolshot Upgrade

15.000 GXP

End of the line

17,838,493 c-bills
21,500 mech XP

VS

52,774.362 c-bills (mechs)
18,000,000 c-bills (modules)

107,500 mech XP (+another 43.000 if no other assaults previously elited)
69,500 GXP (skills unlock)

...


17,838,493 c-bills
21,500 mech XP

VS

70,774.362 c-bills
107,500 - 150,500 mech XP
69,500 GXP


Not even tackled the time invested to grind the c-bills,XP and mostly GXP.

So, no sir, i don't let me get called "entitled" for pointing out the obvious. I and many more spent an aweful lot of time and ressourcen for the difference between basic and master. I sure as **** want that progression count after a skillsystem revamp and not get nerfed on the same level as someone who got stuck on basic. Simply because i invested a hell of a lot more.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 16 March 2017 - 01:27 PM.

[Amsro]

Alistair Winter, on 16 March 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Let me say this without so much as a pinch of salt:

It's because they're trying to make a profit from the new content that they're delivering. They figure that this whole process of creating a skill tree has cost them x amount of dollars. They also need to sell y amount of dollars worth of premium time + c-bill boosters per month to meet their budget.

Russ was very open about this during the last NGNG podcast. PGI wants to make money off of this. They don't want to refund the players so much that nobody will buy premium time for the next 6 months.

It's not that they don't know how to refund 91 skill point per mastered mech and 72 skill points per elited mech, or whatever. They're trying to maximize their profits without upsetting too many players. Hence the past few weeks of trying to negotiate with the players about what a skill point should cost.

EDIT: Also note the lack of premium time in the new mech packs. PGI trying to rethink their business model for 2017.

And that is where he fails as a team lead. You should NEVER monetize the core game function. The old skill tree was overdue for a change and it's not on the player base to pay for it.

What he fails to realize is by resetting his current customers progress they will no longer be buying anything.

For sure I won't be buying more premium time to "remaster" my mechs quicker. In fact by trying to make a c-bill/time sink beyond what a new player would experience (like mastering 70 mechs a second time) would finally seal my leaking wallet.

The money will come when the game is worth paying for, can't try to squeeze money from an already starved community.

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

So let me make sure I got this this right...

A business is trying to maintain a profit? How diabolical! They should do it for the art, and just provide it for everyone to enjoy!

The profits should not be made on game changing updates. Doesn't really seem like a good plan.

To me it would be a kin to car companies trying to charge customers for a warranty repair or recall.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 16 March 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

And that is where he fails as a team lead. You should NEVER monetize the core game function. The old skill tree was overdue for a change and it's not on the player base to pay for it.

What he fails to realize is by resetting his current customers progress they will no longer be buying anything.

For sure I won't be buying more premium time to "remaster" my mechs quicker. In fact by trying to make a c-bill/time sink beyond what a new player would experience (like mastering 70 mechs a second time) would finally seal my leaking wallet.

The money will come when the game is worth paying for, can't try to squeeze money from an already starved community.


The profits should not be made on game changing updates. Doesn't really seem like a good plan.

To me it would be a kin to car companies trying to charge customers for a warranty repair or recall.

Or one could flip your script and say..looks like a lot of people decided to be *ahem* "cheapskates", and skip the extended warranty.... and are expecting freebie service after the base warranty expired. As the old, dead, Jedi said... "from a certain point of view".

[MikeBend]

So when do we get monetized logon to game servers? OP has a very good point.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Sure as sh.. not buying any premium time.. why should i? Just learned that all the double earning i stuck into unlocking mods, buying mechs to master ain't worth jacksh.. soon.

That's one way to sell premium time, very appealing i must say.

[Blackfire1]

Careful, actual logic doesn't stand well here.

[Cementi]

Actually Amsro I do not have that many modules. I had enough for two drop decks and then a few others scattered around. I absolutely hate the UI for finding modules and the bonus for most were so minute that I really did not care enough to find them or buy them.

So no I do not have a ton of modules I will be getting refunded for and I am still for the skill tree.

I do not understand why people like you feel that they are taking anything away because you chose not to invest in modules. Not to be rude but that is your problem.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

You knew the system, you still bought in. Did you need to? Did you have to? No. Is it a bad system? Yup. You still had a choice. You chose poorly.

Stop with the victim bullcrap.

Are you trolling or are you just challenged?

I played PGI's game and i used the featured it provided. How is playing their game, as they promoted and intended a poor choice.. seriously now?

[Alistair Winter]

Amsro, on 16 March 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

And that is where he fails as a team lead. You should NEVER monetize the core game function. The old skill tree was overdue for a change and it's not on the player base to pay for it.
What he fails to realize is by resetting his current customers progress they will no longer be buying anything.
For sure I won't be buying more premium time to "remaster" my mechs quicker. In fact by trying to make a c-bill/time sink beyond what a new player would experience (like mastering 70 mechs a second time) would finally seal my leaking wallet.
The money will come when the game is worth paying for, can't try to squeeze money from an already starved community.

At this point, I really don't know how I would ensure profits if I was in PGI's shoes. They've got by on selling mech packs and premium time for so long, and now most of the veterans have 100+ mastered mechs. Where do you go from there? MWO is in a weird position, because it's not like most F2P games that target players who are willing to spend 10-100 dollars. MWO is whale hunting. And yet, it's not doing it like blatant P2W games, and it's not doing it like Star Citizen, which is the ultimate whale hunter, but tries to promise insane amounts of future content as a carrot. MWO is basically just selling expensive mech packs with different hardpoint configurations. They've been doing that for 5 years, basically. Where do you go from there? I have no idea.

I'm not really interested in thinking about what they should do, at this point. But I'll just point out what they're doing, when I am able to. From my perspective, it seems quite risky to do what they're currently doing. It's not like an MMORPG where you can raise the level cap from 60 to 100, and then veterans who are still stuck at level 60 will keep playing each other. In MWO, a player with a fresh mech with 0 skill points will regularly face enemy mechs with full upgrades and 91 skill points.

Whatever. I've played this game for 4 years now. If it's no longer fun, I'll just move on. Star Citizen is looking better and better with each passing week.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 16 March 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

At this point, I really don't know how I would ensure profits if I was in PGI's shoes. They've got by on selling mech packs and premium time for so long, and now most of the veterans have 100+ mastered mechs. Where do you go from there? MWO is in a weird position, because it's not like most F2P games that target players who are willing to spend 10-100 dollars. MWO is whale hunting. And yet, it's not doing it like blatant P2W games, and it's not doing it like Star Citizen, which is the ultimate whale hunter, but tries to promise insane amounts of future content as a carrot. MWO is basically just selling expensive mech packs with different hardpoint configurations. They've been doing that for 5 years, basically. Where do you go from there? I have no idea.

For starters, I imagine that a lot of people would pay for being able to customize the costume of their pilot sitting in the cockpit.

Those new cockpit items (Civil War ultimate pack bonuses) that boost your income seem like something that would be easy for them to sell as well.

Alternate mech geometry is another thing, like different skulls for your Atlas. Obviously the overall hitboxes need to stay approximately the same so it isn't Pay2Win or Pay2Lose. Something like the special edition Urbie custom geo is a good example of this.

Edited by FupDup, 16 March 2017 - 01:58 PM.

[Amsro]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

Or one could flip your script and say..looks like a lot of people decided to be *ahem* "cheapskates", and skip the extended warranty.... and are expecting freebie service after the base warranty expired. As the old, dead, Jedi said... "from a certain point of view".

Again, yes and no. In this case there was no extended warranty offered. The original contract was we have modules and the skill tree will be modified soon as the current one is a placeholder ( since beta )

So in reality the onus is on PGI for waiting 5 years to change a temporary setup. Not on those who were playing the game withing the very rules PGI set up.

The "cheapskates" (i'm assuming referring to those that didn't buy modules for every mech) aren't actually cheapskates, because if any of them are like me, we are broke, less then 1 million cbills broke, from buying and kitting out battlemechs, which until this past month was a legitimate way to play the game.

Not to mention those with lots of mechs likely spent lots MC to get lots mechbays, so this is also another point that further invalidates the "cheapskate" term that has be flung around like dung lately.

[Alan Davion]

Alistair Winter, on 16 March 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Whatever. I've played this game for 4 years now. If it's no longer fun, I'll just move on. Star Citizen is looking better and better with each passing week.

Don't forget HBS' Battletech and Mass Effect Andromeda coming soon.

[Amsro]

Cementi, on 16 March 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Actually Amsro I do not have that many modules. I had enough for two drop decks and then a few others scattered around. I absolutely hate the UI for finding modules and the bonus for most were so minute that I really did not care enough to find them or buy them.

So no I do not have a ton of modules I will be getting refunded for and I am still for the skill tree.

I do not understand why people like you feel that they are taking anything away because you chose not to invest in modules. Not to be rude but that is your problem.

But that isn't my problem, I bought mechs instead of modules.

Why?

Because I have all the modules I need, and then I move them around. That is a perfectly acceptable way to play the game. Even recommended to do so by PGI in the game.

And in this way EVERY mech I play that has been mastered I play with full modules and am not at ANY disadvantage in game to anyone else.

But if I get NO refund to my mastered status of my mechs then I will have ZERO mastered mechs with ZERO skill nodes with ZERO cbills to respec them.

So in essence I am being patched out of the game.

Not to be rude, but how does that seem like good business?

As a side note, I am all for the new skill tree.

And also, please use "reply with quote", I almost missed our conversations both times.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 16 March 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Again, yes and no. In this case there was no extended warranty offered. The original contract was we have modules and the skill tree will be modified soon as the current one is a placeholder ( since beta )

So in reality the onus is on PGI for waiting 5 years to change a temporary setup. Not on those who were playing the game withing the very rules PGI set up.

The "cheapskates" (i'm assuming referring to those that didn't buy modules for every mech) aren't actually cheapskates, because if any of them are like me, we are broke, less then 1 million cbills broke, from buying and kitting out battlemechs, which until this past month was a legitimate way to play the game.

Not to mention those with lots of mechs likely spent lots MC to get lots mechbays, so this is also another point that further invalidates the "cheapskate" term that has be flung around like dung lately.

So you chose to buy more mechs, instead of fully kitting out what you had. So did I. Guess what? I'm a cheapskate too. But I don't expect someone else to make "right" my choice. I knew the whole time that PGI meant for us to buy modules, but implemented them poorly to force that. And so, I skipped buying them.

I did.

[Bud Crue]

Alistair Winter, on 16 March 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

At this point, I really don't know how I would ensure profits if I was in PGI's shoes.

I do! I do!

1 - Create a good product.
2 - Level with and engage your customers consistently and often.
3 - Don't create, or allow to be created, a perception that you are screwing your customers in any way shape or form (see 2).
4 - Don't break what you sold your customers.
5 - Where and when possible create future good will with your customers by making things better and leveling with them when you can't (see 2).

Its easy. PGI even has a leg up on most companies in that their exclusive license to this IP gives them a built in, fairly fanatical customer base who's members, as history shows, will buy just about any thing related to that IP and will put up with a lot of fail.

They are pretty good at 1. Getting better at 2, but not good enough. Atm doing horrible at 3, 4; and 5 is a crap shoot historically.

Due to a lack of effort at 2, they are allowing these forums and reddit to control their narrative regarding the current situation. Letting Russ inject himself into that effort via the NGNG stream made matters worse. They need to do whatever it takes to make their customers happy now that they have created the mess and made fairly outlandish promises in public. There is no choice here. If they want to go forward with the hopes of getting people to buy their product or their message they need to suck it up and do what needs to be done even if that means giving some folks massive cbill surpluses or whatever it is that they are trying to avoid.

For me their effort at ignoring #4 makes refunds (or not) meaningless. So I don't really care, but what I described above is what they need to do.

Edited by Bud Crue, 16 March 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Alan Davion, on 16 March 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Don't forget HBS' Battletech and Mass Effect Andromeda coming soon.

You know, I kind of feel that the Mass Effect games have run their course. I saw an interesting video about RPGs on YouTube the other day, where someone claimed that Witcher 3 was basically the pinnacle of RPGs right now, and while you could still make games with better stories, more sidequests and more content in general, you won't really see RPGs that make a quantum leap for a while. He was basically saying that the next gen RPG will be when they have some actual AI, and until then, all RPGs are just going to be different spins of the Witcher, Mass Effect, Fallout, Skyrim, etc.

And personally, even though the Fallout games and KotoR games and those top level RPGs are among the best games I've ever played, I feel like I'm kind of done with them. They don't feel as immersive anymore, because I feel like I'm still just following the same formula.
"Commander, we need your help. What do you say?"
A: "I will help you, for great justice!" (+10 Jesus points)
B: "No, I am inexplicably evil and I hate you! Ha-haa!" (+10 baddie points)
C: "What will you pay me?"
D: "I need to know more. Please give me another long monologue about this game's lore before I make my decision."

Not to mention "Ermagerd, I have to save my Vault / the galaxy / my lost father / Skyrim / find my son! But first... let me decorate my home and help that old woman who is sending her family heirloom quilt to her niece on the far side of the world."

I'm not sure AI is what's needed to make RPGs fun for me again, but... I'm not sure the old Baldur's Gate / Fallout / KotoR formula is enough for me anymore.

I am excited about the Battletech game though. I feel like it's going to be a better experience by having more emphasis on the action and the story, and less on the sandbox stuff or the "bad guy vs good guy alternate endings" that are so common these days.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 16 March 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

For starters, I imagine that a lot of people would pay for being able to customize the costume of their pilot sitting in the cockpit.
Those new cockpit items (Civil War ultimate pack bonuses) that boost your income seem like something that would be easy for them to sell as well.
Alternate mech geometry is another thing, like different skulls for your Atlas. Obviously the overall hitboxes need to stay approximately the same so it isn't Pay2Win or Pay2Lose. Something like the special edition Urbie custom geo is a good example of this.

I was at least thinking that custom mech geometry would become a thing. I can only assume that PGI decided it was either virtually impossible or just not as cost effective as mech packs.

There's definitely more money to be made in cosmetics. Pilot skin texture, custom unit decals, avatars, etc.