48 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Anjian, on 16 March 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

I say just give it heat, and the hotter it gets, the higher the jam factor. There is also giving it less damage per round so it needs to fire more rounds for the equivalent damage.

I don't think it needs a spool --- it should already have steady though low damage right from the start but requires you need to spool up to get massive burst damage by pressing down the firing trigger in a prolonged fashion.

During burst mode, the barrels heat up with a red glow, which also a tell indicator sign that the weapon may also have an increased jamming rate. The mech should also heat up as well so there is inherent heat penalties.

They could use the same system and code as the masc heat. Just put it on the other side and once you hit red you risk jamming.

I like that idea

[Scout Derek]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

They could use the same system and code as the masc heat. Just put it on the other side and once you hit red you risk jamming.

I like that idea

That's actually a good idea. Not much work to do on their part...

pgi pls.

[Anjian]

The heat factor is scaled directly with the rate of fire.

So you go

daka daka daka then ratatatatatatat like a zipper.

The heat is low while on steady fire but bursts when during the massed burst fire.

At this point you risk increased jamming and the mech is also enduring increased heat which may also penalize the way you use other weapons like lasers. This is so because the weapons needs to share the same single heat pool with all the other weapons, and not a separate heat pool alone for the jamming chances which is also harder to track and requires a separate UI element.

With the increased heat comes with increased jamming chances.

If the mech is already hot from firing other weapons like lasers, that also increases your jamming chances.

Of course you can counter this by using Coolants, Heat Sinks, and having cooler maps that are more favorable.

Edited by Anjian, 16 March 2017 - 06:48 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

They could use the same system and code as the masc heat. Just put it on the other side and once you hit red you risk jamming.

I like that idea

How would it work with multiple weapons?

They should just make it like that average machine gun trope that overheats and stalls. Like Flamer, but instead of incurring heat after the gauge is full, it stalls and enters cooldown mode.

[LordNothing]

almost every video game gets gatling guns wrong. feed and gun rotation are mechanically synchronized, thats how you get such insane rates of fire. if they were desynced you would get frequent jams and there is really no reason to do that. another thing is that in games that actually get this function right, the spinup time is so slow it has a charging feel to it. in reality it doesn't take much time to spin up the gun. while the barrel assembly is heavy its still pretty tight about its axis. you know how its easier to rotate a 2x4 around its long axis than to spin it on its short axis (because moment of inertia), its sort of like that. so while those barrels weigh several hundred pounds, it doesn't take much torque to spin it up.

games like to use a charging mechanic because it looks cool and adds a little bit of extra difficulty to what would otherwise be an op weapon. games have to nerf gatling guns many times below reality just to make them fair. so long as its a finger down weapon and i dont have to tap the living crap out of my mouse button to make it fire fast it will be ok. im kind of worried that they will just recycle uac mechanics into it, and that would just be lame. i have a feeling we will be seeing 'WEAPON JAMMED' a lot. it should let you control your burst length to prevent jams.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2017 - 09:14 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

almost every video game gets gatling guns wrong. feed and gun rotation are mechanically synchronized, thats how you get such insane rates of fire. if they were desynced you would get frequent jams and there is really no reason to do that. another thing is that in games that actually get this function right, the spinup time is so slow it has a charging feel to it. in reality it doesn't take much time to spin up the gun. while the barrel assembly is heavy its still pretty tight about its axis. you know how its easier to rotate a 2x4 around its long axis than to spin it on its short axis (because moment of inertia), its sort of like that. so while those barrels weigh several hundred pounds, it doesn't take much torque to spin it up.

games like to use a charging mechanic because it looks cool and adds a little bit of extra difficulty to what would otherwise be an op weapon. games have to nerf gatling guns many times below reality just to make them fair. so long as its a finger down weapon and i dont have to tap the living crap out of my mouse button to make it fire fast it will be ok. im kind of worried that they will just recycle uac mechanics into it, and that would just be lame. i have a feeling we will be seeing 'WEAPON JAMMED' a lot. it should let you control your burst length to prevent jams.

I've yet to get your argument as to why we should heavily base RAC into real life Gatling Guns at all.

[Zergling]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

almost every video game gets gatling guns wrong. feed and gun rotation are mechanically synchronized, thats how you get such insane rates of fire. if they were desynced you would get frequent jams and there is really no reason to do that. another thing is that in games that actually get this function right, the spinup time is so slow it has a charging feel to it. in reality it doesn't take much time to spin up the gun. while the barrel assembly is heavy its still pretty tight about its axis. you know how its easier to rotate a 2x4 around its long axis than to spin it on its short axis (because moment of inertia), its sort of like that. so while those barrels weigh several hundred pounds, it doesn't take much torque to spin it up.

games like to use a charging mechanic because it looks cool and adds a little bit of extra difficulty to what would otherwise be an op weapon. games have to nerf gatling guns many times below reality just to make them fair. so long as its a finger down weapon and i dont have to tap the living crap out of my mouse button to make it fire fast it will be ok. im kind of worried that they will just recycle uac mechanics into it, and that would just be lame. i have a feeling we will be seeing 'WEAPON JAMMED' a lot. it should let you control your burst length to prevent jams.

It depends on if the gun is powered by its own action or if it is externally powered.

If the gatling gun is self-powered, it does take time to reach its maximum rate of fire. Eg, take the 20mm M61A1 Vulcan; in the first 0.5 seconds of firing, the gun fires 18 rounds, but in the next 0.5 seconds it fires 50 rounds.

Having to spin up before firing is unrealistic, but it is realistic for the rate of fire to be slower at the start of a burst, until the gun reaches its maximum rate of fire.

Edited by Zergling, 16 March 2017 - 09:24 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Prosperity Park, on 16 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Jamming will kill this as a viable weapon.

"Shoots 6x faster than a standard AC... For 2 shots, then jams for half an hour" because you need it to jam 3x longer than a UAC to be balanced, right?

We need to make a strong deviation from TT rules to make it viable, and it would be super easy.

Make the RACs act as gattling guns that deliver large numbers of small rounds with a Cone of Fire, but NOWHERE NEAR 6x damage output of normal AC. Make the overall DPS higher than a AC, but pay for that in terms on inaccuracy and lack of front-loaded damage of large slugs

Prosperity Park, on 16 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Jamming will kill this as a viable weapon.

"Shoots 6x faster than a standard AC... For 2 shots, then jams for half an hour" because you need it to jam 3x longer than a UAC to be balanced, right?

We need to make a strong deviation from TT rules to make it viable, and it would be super easy.

Make the RACs act as gattling guns that deliver large numbers of small rounds with a Cone of Fire, but NOWHERE NEAR 6x damage output of normal AC. Make the overall DPS higher than a AC, but pay for that in terms on inaccuracy and lack of front-loaded damage of large slugs

Since the ENTIRE point of what made them so strong in the TT is BECAUSE they could unjam in combat... it is one of the many factors of what PGI has f*cked up in the translations for the TT in making UACs unjam in combat, therefore becoming a huge buff for Clan because they have way more calibers and can carry more guns. Another example of failure that results in all the broken meta in this game can always be directly traced back to PGI not following the rules the game was designed under... so I have faith that PGI will screw this implementation up as well by not following th erules which will make it NERFED as f*ck since PGI nerfs IS and buffs Clan.

[Dino Might]

I don't think there should be a noticeable spooling time. It's a stupid gimmick that always bothers me in games with multi-barrel cannons. Watch a GAU-8 fire. You won't even notice the time it takes to get the barrels rotating to operational speed.

All they need to do with RACs is make the damage per shell in conjunction with rounds per minute give a reasonably equivalent DPS to normal autocannons. Don't make heat scale with some kind of multiplier. Make it a straight linear progression. Again, modern weapons of same type do not overheat like crazy specifically because of the use of multiple barrels and convection cooling.

[LordNothing]

Zergling, on 16 March 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

It depends on if the gun is powered by its own action or if it is externally powered.

If the gatling gun is self-powered, it does take time to reach its maximum rate of fire. Eg, take the 20mm M61A1 Vulcan; in the first 0.5 seconds of firing, the gun fires 18 rounds, but in the next 0.5 seconds it fires 50 rounds.

Having to spin up before firing is unrealistic, but it is realistic for the rate of fire to be slower at the start of a burst, until the gun reaches its maximum rate of fire.

i like the GSh-6-23. gas powered monstrosity. requires cocking charges to initiate firing, so you only get 10 trigger pulls. but it can also dump all its ammo in 2 seconds. i figure it needs breaks of some sort to stop it before it melts/eats all its ammo. fire control systems for these kind of things probibly have a lockout feature to keep trigger happy pilots from ruining their weapons.

some guns spin up more aggressively than others, but my point was that the time involved is grossly exaggerated. real guns fire when as they spin up so there is no delay. it actually works out because you need to see where your tracers are going in order to adjust your aim. so by the time the gun is going full bore, you have those tracers where you want em. you use them at sniper ranges, not mwo ranges.

The6thMessenger, on 16 March 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

I've yet to get your argument as to why we should heavily base RAC into real life Gatling Guns at all.

thats because there isnt one. i thought i made it clear if any game represented gatling guns properly, it would be a very dull game (everything would be dead).

Edited by LordNothing, 16 March 2017 - 10:36 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I think Rotary AC's should basically work like machine guns, but with higher damage, same cooldown time, + spin up/spin down, and jam chance..

Definitely if they had the cannon 6 x AC damage, that would be game breaking.. Witch means they should work similar to clan UAC's..

Keep in mind that they will spread damage (or at least should), and are ammo dependent.. So they will probably chew through ammo quickly.. (any vulcan/gattling/rotating multi-barreled weapon does that).

Generally speaking, such weapons use lots of smaller slugs and "spray fire" tactics.. compared to an Autocannon that uses one big slug like a tank cannon..

So in conclusion..

The RAC should be like a super-heavy version of a machine gun, with damage potential nuch higher than a convetional Autocannon, and only slightly higher than a UAC, but both only after sustained fire, not per shot.

And IS mechs will probably still prefer a str8-up AC20, for it's one-slug pinpoint damage..

Edited by Vellron2005, 17 March 2017 - 03:44 AM.

[Zergling]

LordNothing, on 16 March 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

i figure it needs breaks of some sort to stop it before it melts/eats all its ammo. fire control systems for these kind of things probibly have a lockout feature to keep trigger happy pilots from ruining their weapons.

IIRC, many gatling guns on tactical aircraft fire in fixed time bursts, typically with burst settings varying between 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds depending on the specific gun.

Eg, I think the A-10 can fire its gun in 1 and 2 second bursts.

Edited by Zergling, 17 March 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Dino Might, on 16 March 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:

I don't think there should be a noticeable spooling time. It's a stupid gimmick that always bothers me in games with multi-barrel cannons. Watch a GAU-8 fire. You won't even notice the time it takes to get the barrels rotating to operational speed.

All they need to do with RACs is make the damage per shell in conjunction with rounds per minute give a reasonably equivalent DPS to normal autocannons. Don't make heat scale with some kind of multiplier. Make it a straight linear progression. Again, modern weapons of same type do not overheat like crazy specifically because of the use of multiple barrels and convection cooling.

Then what would be best is you fire the first shot just like a normal AC and as you hold the button it just keeps firing. Make it a flat stream weapon that unlike lasers you can stop firing when you want. Have a jam bar like the flamer heat bar which forces it to stop at a certain point because RAC's do jam on TT and need to have some kind of trade off in MWO. Give it only a spool down animation which sticks with the 'cooldown' of the weapon as the system finishes reloading it or something. IDK, but, still I am for half damage shots just to prevent too much damage up front, and 2xammo per ton to make up for it. Allows you to tap it like a regular AC or UAC, no random chance of jamming, release trigger to stop firing and let the "jam"/"weapon heat" bar decrease.

[Metus regem]

Zergling, on 17 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

IIRC, many gatling guns on tactical aircraft fire in fixed time bursts, typically with burst settings varying between 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds depending on the specific gun.

Eg, I think the A-10 can fire its gun in 1 and 2 second bursts.

That's due to heat mainly... the barrels start to warp after about 3-4 seconds of solid firing with the GAU-8.... They are also not hard limited, rather pilot training.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

They could use the same system and code as the masc heat. Just put it on the other side and once you hit red you risk jamming.

I like that idea

I like it, but I dislike RNG in this sort of game, So, I say just give it exponential heat (multiplied per RAC) once the bar is full. Like running Flamers too long, but a lot worse.

Say no to jam chance!

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 17 March 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[LordNothing]

Zergling, on 17 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

IIRC, many gatling guns on tactical aircraft fire in fixed time bursts, typically with burst settings varying between 0.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds depending on the specific gun.

Eg, I think the A-10 can fire its gun in 1 and 2 second bursts.

the gau-8 has a magazine large enough where you can do that. drum holds 1150 rounds. at 3900 rounds a minute it can only fire for 18 seconds. of course the a10 is meant to be used for ground support so that large magazine is warranted. the gsh-6-23 fires at 10k rounds/minute but only has a 260 round magazine (mig-31). i guess when you use it in a fighter the gun is mr backup, if you get close enough to use it youve already screwed up.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 March 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Morgawr]

Ok guys, I've been reading all this and you are making WAY to much out of it. The RAC will work very well with a simple limiting mechanic, one that can easily be implemented. For every cannon past 2 (without quirks) that a chassis is loaded with the jam chance is exponentially higher. Also, the longer you hold the trigger once firing the greater the jam chance. So people will use the weapon like its meant to be, burst fire. And since it can be lighter than a regular AC we can equip it on smaller mechs. Forget the HMG thing, its to clunky to be useful. Trade the HMG with the RAC limited by number carried and duration of fire. Allow it to use standard AC2 ammo, or AC 5 (with lowered fire rate due to weight), but not UAC of any type, and it will make medium mechs a force to respect again when brawling, but will encourage pilots to respect their potential loss of firepower due to impatience.

Now, spin up and spin down. This one is harder, but for different reasons. RAC's that are just spinning should contribute slower torso twist and reduced arm mobility because of the impact of the barrels corkscrewing away would have in real life. There would be torque force to overcome in that case, and it SHOULD reflect that. I know that's not a mechanic currently in game, but it WOULD give them a cost to the benefit. And if a pilot doesn't keep the weapon spun up than the warm up time should be .8 seconds. Wind down is near instant, due to internal brakes. The benefit to being wound is that you can fire right away, the drawback is poorer mobility and chassis torque effects. The trade off is wait to fire until the weapon winds up, but make it long enough that popping and sniping is not really practical.
And some chassis variants could support a form of ballistic affinity that encourages mixed ballistic load outs.

Thats how it should be done.

[Scout Derek]

Morgawr, on 23 June 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

Ok guys, I've been reading all this and you are making WAY to much out of it. The RAC will work very well with a simple limiting mechanic, one that can easily be implemented. For every cannon past 2 (without quirks) that a chassis is loaded with the jam chance is exponentially higher. Also, the longer you hold the trigger once firing the greater the jam chance. So people will use the weapon like its meant to be, burst fire. And since it can be lighter than a regular AC we can equip it on smaller mechs. Forget the HMG thing, its to clunky to be useful. Trade the HMG with the RAC limited by number carried and duration of fire. Allow it to use standard AC2 ammo, or AC 5 (with lowered fire rate due to weight), but not UAC of any type, and it will make medium mechs a force to respect again when brawling, but will encourage pilots to respect their potential loss of firepower due to impatience.

Now, spin up and spin down. This one is harder, but for different reasons. RAC's that are just spinning should contribute slower torso twist and reduced arm mobility because of the impact of the barrels corkscrewing away would have in real life. There would be torque force to overcome in that case, and it SHOULD reflect that. I know that's not a mechanic currently in game, but it WOULD give them a cost to the benefit. And if a pilot doesn't keep the weapon spun up than the warm up time should be .8 seconds. Wind down is near instant, due to internal brakes. The benefit to being wound is that you can fire right away, the drawback is poorer mobility and chassis torque effects. The trade off is wait to fire until the weapon winds up, but make it long enough that popping and sniping is not really practical.
And some chassis variants could support a form of ballistic affinity that encourages mixed ballistic load outs.

Thats how it should be done.

do you even look at date and time-

*looks at join year and posts*

holy ****, we got a time traveler over here.

[charliedelta76]

Epilogue Post:
3060 dropped along with the RAC-2s and Rac-5s
While I am happy with this new weapon it's jam bar is actually sufficient balance.
Surprisingly the Light Machine gun is the perfect partner to this weapon.
It serves as a spotting machine gun to the RAC.

We'll see if the game changes in faction play.

[Crux7]

Just tried it. it's pretty crap.
just wasted stats in two games and the cost of buying two.
meh!