49 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

I was watching Kanajashi's video about light ferro not being the answer to balance issues and it seems clear to me the IS stuff needs buffed.


- Clan FF: 20% more armor per ton & only 7 slots. Saves 2.41 tons on a 75t mech

- IS reg FF: 12% more armor per ton & 14 slots. Saves 1.55 tons

- IS Light FF: 6% more armor per ton & 7 slots. Saves 0.82 tons

Something needs to change to make the IS stuff worth taking. 14 or 7 slots is a huge investment for the pitiful return you get on the IS side.

I propose that Reg IS FF get buffed to 20% and Light FF to 10% (At least) Kana talks about reducing the slot reqs but idk. What do you guys think?

[FupDup]

For better or for worse, PGI is very adamant about not touching tonnage or critical slots.

All we have left to work with is maybe small armor quirks when you equip the items. Probably still a long shot though.

[Hit the Deck]

I view things like Light Ferro and LFE are just stuff which help the IS optimize their builds and not to make them equal to Clan.

The philosophy of balance that I propose is not making a single IS 'Mech equal to a single Clan one because that requires slapping additional values to IS equipment and 'Mechs, nerfing the Clan ones, or both.

Rather, the focus should be on giving the IS more options, some of which are unique, probably game-changing, equipment so they can defeat the Clan in certain circumstances and in number if they can plan and coordinate their attack well enough. The upcoming Stealth Armor or maybe Reflective/Reactive armor is a good example of this, so is the Heavy Gauss Rifle which potentially can do 25 PPFLD (I know that it only happens at 120-180m per TRO). Their worth and potential success depends on the implementation of course - I'm wondering what would happen if Stealth Armor can make your 'Mech invisible (practically giving it the Chameleon LPS function).

Why do I like this way? Mainly so that the two sides can have different flavor.

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 17 March 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

I view things like Light Ferro and LFE are just stuff which help the IS optimize their builds and not to make them equal to Clan.

The philosophy of balance that I propose is not making a single IS 'Mech equal to a single Clan one because that requires slapping additional values to IS equipment and 'Mechs, nerfing the Clan ones, or both.

Rather, the focus should be on giving the IS more options, some of which are unique, probably game-changing, equipment so they can defeat the Clan in certain circumstances and in number if they can plan and coordinate their attack well enough. The upcoming Stealth Armor or maybe Reflective/Reactive armor is a good example of this, so is the Heavy Gauss Rifle which potentially can do 25 PPFLD (I know that it only happens at 120-180m per TRO). Their worth and potential success depends on the implementation of course - I'm wondering what would happen if Stealth Armor can make your 'Mech invisible (practically giving it the Chameleon LPS function).

Why do I like this way? Mainly so that the two sides can have different flavor.

Except the majority of the players play in QP where the tech is mixed. Which means PGI should keep both sides equal in power. Trusting pugs to follow directions and coordinate, just so IS mechs can have a fighting chance against their Clan counterparts is folly.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 March 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[WolvesX]

Its really sad how much people DISLIKE Kanajashis analysis...

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 17 March 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

Except the majority of the players play in QP where the tech is mixed. Which means PGI should keep both sides equal in power. Trusting pugs to follow directions and coordinate, just so IS mechs can have a fighting chance against their Clan counterparts is folly.

You are of course right.

All is not lost though, because in the chaos of QP anything could happen so my proposal could still stand. Although it's not balanced around QP, FP pug drops could see parity. Playing as IS would indeed require a bit more thought.

[Mcgral18]

More like 40% isFF and 20% LFF

Or 30/15


Is there any reason The Sphere can never ever have something better than the Clams?

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

More like 40% isFF and 20% LFF

Or 30/15


Is there any reason The Sphere can never ever have something better than the Clams?

Lore. Neckbeards.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

...
Is there any reason The Sphere can never ever have something better than the Clams?

A weapon which might do 25 PPFLD. It does have major drawbacks.

Clan doesn't even have 20 PPFLD weapon. AC/20 GH needs to be raised to 2.

Give Stealh Armor the Chameleon LPS function, now that would be interesting (someone else also made a thread about it).

They shouldn't be better in every way, just unique enough to give the IS an edge.

[Rakshasa]

Ferro has always been the poor man's Endo. Lore says Endo skeletons are harder to fix, but it's never stopped a bunch of canon designs from using it in spades.

It would be great to see IS FF provide bonuses other than weight reduction - better tonnage saved, maybe a small damage resistance buff, something. Anything to make it so it's not just "Endo but worse" for that 14-slot layout. Same for Light FF, but less, as people have already mentioned.

Edited by Rakshasa, 17 March 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Hit the Deck, on 17 March 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

I view things like Light Ferro and LFE are just stuff which help the IS optimize their builds and not to make them equal to Clan.

The philosophy of balance that I propose is not making a single IS 'Mech equal to a single Clan one because that requires slapping additional values to IS equipment and 'Mechs, nerfing the Clan ones, or both.

Rather, the focus should be on giving the IS more options, some of which are unique, probably game-changing, equipment so they can defeat the Clan in certain circumstances and in number if they can plan and coordinate their attack well enough. The upcoming Stealth Armor or maybe Reflective/Reactive armor is a good example of this, so is the Heavy Gauss Rifle which potentially can do 25 PPFLD (I know that it only happens at 120-180m per TRO). Their worth and potential success depends on the implementation of course - I'm wondering what would happen if Stealth Armor can make your 'Mech invisible (practically giving it the Chameleon LPS function).

Why do I like this way? Mainly so that the two sides can have different flavor.

I'm all for different flavor and variety, but Ferro as it is, is not so much as an option for optimizing a build but a base necessity whenever possible so that I have room to put a viable tonnage of weapons or armor or engine or heat sinks (notice the "or"). I can't imagine that without a boost in stats many folks are going to use light ferro. It is in fact pointless as currently presented. Great you gain crits, but not enough weight to even plop in another 1 ton heat sink...on a 75 ton mech. Sorry, but those stats have to change, or they may as well just skip it.

Edited by Bud Crue, 17 March 2017 - 04:34 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Bud Crue, on 17 March 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

I'm all for different flavor and variety, but Ferro as it is, is not so much as an option for optimizing a build but a base necessity whenever possible so that I have room to put a viable tonnage of weapons or armor or engine or heat sinks (notice the "or"). I can't imagine that without a boost in stats many folks are going to use light ferro. It is in fact pointless as currently presented. Great you gain crits, but not enough weight to even plop in another 1 ton heat sink...on a 75 ton mech. Sorry, but those stats have to change, or they may as well just skip it.

I'm not opposed to buffing (potentially) rubbish equipment.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 17 March 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

Lore. Neckbeards.

For Balance, CoreRule Ignore





Have we lost Mr. Science Man?

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

For Balance, CoreRule Ignore


Have we lost Mr. Science Man?

Unfortunately it seems that way, until new changes in this game might bring him back. His spirit lives on, meanwhile.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 March 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[Kuaron]

Ah, missed this thread and made a similar one:

https://mwomercs.com...n-lff-and-ours/

Proposal included.

[Y E O N N E]

Having spent considerable time building in RemLab, LFF does what it needs to do. What are missing are the XL Gyro and Small Cockpit. I really think we ought to lobby PGI to put those in as upgrades, they are the key to making LFEs really work.

[1453 R]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Having spent considerable time building in RemLab, LFF does what it needs to do. What are missing are the XL Gyro and Small Cockpit. I really think we ought to lobby PGI to put those in as upgrades, they are the key to making LFEs really work.

Question: why force the Sphere to pay a tax of C-Bills and chassis space to, effectively, gain the equivalent of the cXL?

Let the LFE come into the game completely free of ST blowout penalties, like the launch cXL. Yes, that almost completely obsoletes the STD engine, but the LFE was going to do that anyways. Letting the LFE keep its full performance on shoulder blowout is its payout for being 33% heavier than an equivalent cXL. The STD issue is solved some other way later on, but one shouldn't need to pay a ton of money, give up extra space in their STs, and suffer whatever penalty the Small Cockpit inflicts to almost-match the cXL spec for spec.

Different But Equal is still the goal - letting the LFE outperform the cXL strongly after shoulder blowout is one way to start.

As for Ferro/Light Ferro...I dunno. Resistance buffs seems weird when the armor is supposed to be a weight-saving measure, not a protection-increasing measure, but Light Ferro is really, really bad, and standard iFF isn't much better. I'd prefer to see STD structure buffed, actually, making Endo a superior weight savings but at the cost of the STD durability* bonus, while Ferro is a weight savings with only slot cost, but that doesn't solve the fact that iFF/LFF is still bunk compared to cFF. I don't know what the optimal solution is, but I don't think XL Gyros and Small Cockpits taking the place of cXL/cFF weight savings is it.

[Pyed]

I play just about exclusively IS and I don't really care.
I have plenty of mechs with armor shaved on a full build-out and >6 but <14 slots open.
They're all gonna get LFF and a bit of armor back.

Give IS advantages over clam elsewhere (the rest of the new tech).

[Y E O N N E]

1453 R, on 17 March 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Question: why force the Sphere to pay a tax of C-Bills and chassis space to, effectively, gain the equivalent of the cXL?

Let the LFE come into the game completely free of ST blowout penalties, like the launch cXL. Yes, that almost completely obsoletes the STD engine, but the LFE was going to do that anyways. Letting the LFE keep its full performance on shoulder blowout is its payout for being 33% heavier than an equivalent cXL. The STD issue is solved some other way later on, but one shouldn't need to pay a ton of money, give up extra space in their STs, and suffer whatever penalty the Small Cockpit inflicts to almost-match the cXL spec for spec.

Different But Equal is still the goal - letting the LFE outperform the cXL strongly after shoulder blowout is one way to start.

As for Ferro/Light Ferro...I dunno. Resistance buffs seems weird when the armor is supposed to be a weight-saving measure, not a protection-increasing measure, but Light Ferro is really, really bad, and standard iFF isn't much better. I'd prefer to see STD structure buffed, actually, making Endo a superior weight savings but at the cost of the STD durability* bonus, while Ferro is a weight savings with only slot cost, but that doesn't solve the fact that iFF/LFF is still bunk compared to cFF. I don't know what the optimal solution is, but I don't think XL Gyros and Small Cockpits taking the place of cXL/cFF weight savings is it.

You are making much ado about nothing.

1.) There is already a tax in the game for having to literally buy and fit more guns to do the same thing, so principle violated there.

2.) The LFE is already less expensive than the XL, and those two items I mentioned allow you to now build certain IS 'Mechs to 1:1 parity in all ways that matter to the same weight cXL Clan 'Mech, so it is a justified expenditure

3.) C-bills are transitory.

[1453 R]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

You are making much ado about nothing. 1.) There is already a tax in the game for having to literally buy and fit more guns to do the same thing, so principle violated there. 2.) The LFE is already less expensive than the XL, and those two items I mentioned allow you to now build certain IS 'Mechs to 1:1 parity in all ways that matter to the same weight cXL Clan 'Mech, so it is a justified expenditure 3.) C-bills are transitory.

All potentially true, but it still means that LFE/XLG/SC basically turns into a mock cXL. No difference in playstyle, no flavor, no coolness. Kinda boring, really. Yeah, you can also theoretically pull XLG and SC on an iXL machine and basically have an XXL engine, but nobody's going to do that because people are already het up over the iXL anyways. I figure giving the LFE more of a unique functionality, i.e. the retention of full performance on ST blowout, is a more interesting path. Not necessarily fully ideal, but if XLGs and SCs were introduced, what sort of issues would they come with? Does losing an ST on an LFE/XLG 'Mech end up the same as losing an ST on an iXL 'Mech? What does losing a portion of gyro do to your machine? How do they simulate a small, cramped cockpit in this game without just crunching the existing cockpits down to half-size and making you fight through a periscope?

Small Cockpits especially are just weird in MWO. XLG is more reasonable, but comes with its own potential issues and muddies the waters between factions even more - especially when Clan BattleMechs start XLG-ing themselves on cXLs and being even more ridiculous than people are putting up with now.