49 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Clans don't get XLG or SC. That's IS tech. The only Clan 'Mechs that had it were IS-built mix-tech machines.

I will reply to the rest later, nit from the phone. Too clumsy.

[SmoothCriminal]

Still not sure why FF weight savings do not match ES when they can be used interchangeably. IS FF should match C FF (7 crits is already burden enough). I guess Lore?

[0bsidion]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

More like 40% isFF and 20% LFF

Or 30/15


Is there any reason The Sphere can never ever have something better than the Clams?

IS RACs are better than Clan RACs, at least on TT, and depending on how they are handled in MWO they have the potential to be better than anything Clans have. Like miles better.

We still don't know how IS Ultras are being handled either, but if they're all solid slug, I'd say they're easily better. Hell, I'd take the current IS UAC/5 over the clan version any day. But I guess if you want to cherry pick what qualifies as better, sure, everything Clans have is better

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

More like 40% isFF and 20% LFF

Or 30/15

Is there any reason The Sphere can never ever have something better than the Clams?

Quote

While the Inner Sphere was mired in the destructive Succession Wars, the Clans experienced a technological renaissance. When they returned to the Inner Sphere, 250 years after their ancestors' departure, the Great Houses were mostly powerless to stop the massive Clan Invasion.

Reason enough?

[1453 R]

0bsidion, on 17 March 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

IS RACs are better than Clan RACs, at least on TT, and depending on how they are handled in MWO they have the potential to be better than anything Clans have. Like miles better.

We still don't know how IS Ultras are being handled either, but if they're all solid slug, I'd say they're easily better. Hell, I'd take the current IS UAC/5 over the clan version any day. But I guess if you want to cherry pick what qualifies as better, sure, everything Clans have is better

Ideally MWO never sees Clan RACs. The RAC is a very distinctly Sphere weapon and goes heavily against the Clan taboo against waste. Miniguns are inherently tremendously wasteful weapons; no right-thinking Clan warrior would ever resort to using one by first preference.

Admittedly, the same logic means HAGs should never have been invented in the first place...but we didn't get HAGs so I suppose we're good?

[Almond Brown]

Hit the Deck, on 17 March 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

A weapon which might do 25 PPFLD. It does have major drawbacks.

Clan doesn't even have 20 PPFLD weapon. AC/20 GH needs to be raised to 2.

Give Stealh Armor the Chameleon LPS function, now that would be interesting (someone else also made a thread about it).

They shouldn't be better in every way, just unique enough to give the IS an edge.

Really? Make "Stealth Armor" operate like they made ECM operate? Some bastardized version??? Well, given how that one went over with the "community", I would have to just say NO!.

[1453 R]

Almond Brown, on 17 March 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Really? Make "Stealth Armor" operate like they made ECM operate? Some bastardized version??? Well, given how that one went over with the "community", I would have to just say NO!.

Stealth Armor is easy. While the armor is on, the 'Mech in it is untargetable. No dorito, no 'R' key. You can see it, you can shoot it, but it Morgan Kell's right off your scopes when you try and grab a lock. The drawback, of course, is that it's bulky, it stops working when the ECM it's tied to is shot out, and it inflicts a pretty stiff heat penalty while in use so it severely limits dissipation during a firefight. Nothing with Stealth Armor active is going to outbrawl something without Stealth Armor active, so you end up using it to position yourself, perhaps make a sneaky ghillie-suit sniper out of yourself if the machine allows for it, but you're easy to outfight if someone catches you out unless you turn off your armor and go back to being regularly targetable.

That would be an awesome new addition to the game and a very, very significant edge for the Inner Sphere.

[Hit the Deck]

BTW, the Chameleon LPS function that I mentioned earlier is invisibility.

http://www.sarna.net...rization_Shield

[0bsidion]

1453 R, on 17 March 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Ideally MWO never sees Clan RACs. The RAC is a very distinctly Sphere weapon and goes heavily against the Clan taboo against waste. Miniguns are inherently tremendously wasteful weapons; no right-thinking Clan warrior would ever resort to using one by first preference.

Admittedly, the same logic means HAGs should never have been invented in the first place...but we didn't get HAGs so I suppose we're good?

HAGs were 3068, just one year away from the cut off date, and Clan RACs were 3069, so Clans aren't getting either of those toys unless PGI decides to bump the date a few years further up.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mcgral18, on 17 March 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

More like 40% isFF and 20% LFF

Or 30/15


Is there any reason The Sphere can never ever have something better than the Clams?

But IS ACs are OP!!
IS Lasers are too cool!!
Omnis can't change their engines and overheat too fast with an XL!!
Clans are *supposed* to be better!!

(Did I miss anything?)

[Jay Leon Hart]

0bsidion, on 17 March 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

IS RACs are better than Clan RACs, at least on TT, and depending on how they are handled in MWO they have the potential to be better than anything Clans have. Like miles better.

We still don't know how IS Ultras are being handled either, but if they're all solid slug, I'd say they're easily better. Hell, I'd take the current IS UAC/5 over the clan version any day. But I guess if you want to cherry pick what qualifies as better, sure, everything Clans have is better

Not everything, just most things

[VanillaG]

TheArisen, on 17 March 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

- Clan FF: 20% more armor per ton & only 7 slots. Saves 2.41 tons on a 75t mech

- IS reg FF: 12% more armor per ton & 14 slots. Saves 1.55 tons

- IS Light FF: 6% more armor per ton & 7 slots. Saves 0.82 tons

Something needs to change to make the IS stuff worth taking. 14 or 7 slots is a huge investment for the pitiful return you get on the IS side.

I propose that Reg IS FF get buffed to 20% and Light FF to 10% (At least) Kana talks about reducing the slot reqs but idk. What do you guys think?

IS and Clan should both give 20% but the IS still takes up 14 crits. Light FF goes to 10% and stays at 7 crits. They could also introduce Endo Composite internal structure that weighs 75% of structure but only take 7 crits. So between LFF, LFE, and ECIS you start making ghetto clan mechs out of your IS mechs.

[ShaneoftheDead]

Quote

Light Ferro-Fibrous.... the weight savings is not as good as regular Ferro-Fibrous

So... Light Ferro weighs more than regular Ferro?

Shouldn't it be called Heavy Ferro-Fibrous instead?

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Personal take on this, agree with Kanajashi on this one. Buff IS Ferro to be worth taking as equal to Clan Ferro for 20%, then make Light Ferro be 12%. Why? Makes IS ferro actually worthwhile on mechs to some degree and makes Light Ferro do what it should do, be a niche build to squeeze out a bit more armor and a bit more tonnage. On average most of my builds see from Light Ferro a usable return of .5 tons which for some is good as I can upgrade half a ton of ammo to a full ton, some very select situations I can go up an engine size. Most of the time? It is just so I can fully armor my legs and I had 7 slots left over after all the guns and heat sinks. So, making Light Ferro more worth while and IS Ferro actually do something would be ideal.

I mean, hey IS ferro being 20% weight saving but 14 slots is still inferior to Clan, but, it makes Clan feel like they figured out how to do Light Ferro right while the IS comes up with a half measure. Yeah sure not 100% balance fix, but, it is something that feels right in my mind and fair.

[FupDup]

ShaneoftheDead, on 17 March 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

So... Light Ferro weighs more than regular Ferro?

Shouldn't it be called Heavy Ferro-Fibrous instead?

Yes, it's very counter-intuitive.

Battletech already has a different armor called Heavy Ferro-Fibrous, which weighs less than regular IS Ferro and the same as Clan Ferro (for a whopping 21 critslots consumed).

I guess it would be easier to think of them as Compact (Light) FF and Bulky (Heavy) FF.

[TheArisen]

It looks like we can all agree that something needs to be done

[Kin3ticX]

Do nothing

Light ferro is most likely there to support a future stock mech from a mechpack and not something you will actually want to use save for edge cases

Edited by Kin3ticX, 17 March 2017 - 10:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

1453 R, on 17 March 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

All potentially true, but it still means that LFE/XLG/SC basically turns into a mock cXL. No difference in playstyle, no flavor, no coolness. Kinda boring, really.

Not entirely true, because the builds where what I said happens is laser boats, which are going to play the same anyway because there's no functional difference among lasers except some can shoot further than others. At that, it's not so cut and dry, either, you still need to get creative with which chassis you pick and how you arrange it because you are going to use all of the slots so LAAs and such matter. IMHO, the differences in 'Mech construction between Clans and IS is a huge part of the game's fun.

That said, the entire purpose of the LFE is to be more like a cXL, so I don't take offense if it ends up doing that in application. The isXLFE and the SFE still provide their own unique flavors.

Quote

Yeah, you can also theoretically pull XLG and SC on an iXL machine and basically have an XXL engine, but nobody's going to do that because people are already het up over the iXL anyways.

I would certainly put a small cockpit on, since that actually frees up a slot and 1 ton of weight while also letting me put something bigger than a medium-class laser in the head.

For tradeoffs, I'd probably saddle the SC with a -5% turn rate quirk since the TT penalty is a harder piloting proficiency check. For the XLG, it has its own penalty by denying you the torso slots. That could get tricky with ammo-centric builds and make it useless on 'Mechs that need their CT guns. It's not a free buff.

I think the LFE should come with less severe penalties on ST loss than the cXL, but otherwise similar in nature.

I would not allow crits. Crits are bad because they provide a disproportionately great reward for weak weapons. I don't like that PGI is trying to emphasize crits even more, and I will not abide adding them to engines and gyros

Quote

Small Cockpits especially are just weird in MWO. XLG is more reasonable, but comes with its own potential issues and muddies the waters between factions even more - especially when Clan BattleMechs start XLG-ing themselves on cXLs and being even more ridiculous than people are putting up with now.

As I said before, Clans don't get XL Gyros and Small Cockpits. That's IS gear.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 March 2017 - 11:01 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Instead of looking it like IS vs Clan as if Faction Play matters somehow I would look at the big picture in balancing. Light engines will be a major increase in IS survivability and depending on if quirks stay or go I'm pretty sure IS will be better. Depending on couple of things IS mechs already are superior at 400 meter range and closer.

[TheArisen]

Kin3ticX, on 17 March 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

Do nothing

Light ferro is most likely there to support a future stock mech from a mechpack and not something you will actually want to use save for edge cases

So the Clans get to have substantially better stuff as ever cuz reasons...