409 replies to this topic

[Lichtsteiner]

The bias argument is a laugh. Loyalist play is dead, so why argue.
Go merc like everyone else and PGI will get twice as much of your money.

At the same time though, the clan nerfs, patch after patch are getting old.
No worries here, I will just stop buying clan tech.

[Racerxintegra2k]

The new crit system is dumb. Every time i lose armor i lose all my weapons on that component. Marauder with 2 LBX10's immediately lose it once the armor was gone ... Catapult with SRM4's .. lost half of them as soon as armor was gone. Every time PGI tries to fix something that isn't broken .... this becomes less fun.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Edward Hazen, on 21 March 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

I said to remove lostech as well and yes, Clans were in before CW, but they could just as easily remove them, especially since they are unwilling to make Clan Mechs actual Clan Mechs.

Oh yes, yes, that is a capital idea!

Strip out the weapons and tech that have been in the game since Day 1 Beta! Remove stupid amounts of content that people paid *real* money for! Yes, that is absolutely-frikkin' BRILLIANT!

Now, for a nice, healthy dose of reality for you: that ship has sailed and there's no going back. That ship left the docks full steam ahead long before I started playing back in 2013.

There is no reasonable way to implement lopsided technology in a real-time PvP game where that game's source material had tech differences balanced by points/model count and rules-of-engagement. The fact that tech updates and more mechs were added to BattleTech over time as well as the need for timeline shifts was for the express purpose of selling more models and rulebooks.
...that stuff doesn't translate to a 12v12 TDM game at all. Period. End of story. Full stop.

The *best* way make the most people happy and piss off the fewest is to find some semblance of a happy middle ground between people wanting this mech or that mech, this tech or that tech, keeping it all (reasonably) viable so one thing is not strictly objectively better than another thing (or if something is objectively better than another thing, the poorer option is, at least 'good enough' until the player can afford an upgrade).

In the case of Clans, this means that they will become Glass Cannons. Their advantage is that they hit like a freight train, but they can't take what they dish out and they are, generally speaking, fast/maneuverable for their size/weight...and of course the added versatility of OmniPods on most chassis means for greater customization so that you can build the mech that suits your play-style best.
For the Inner Sphere, this means that they will be tanky specialists; they don't hit as hard, but they can take a beating. They lack a lot of customization elements, which means that it's harder to tailor a mech to you and you must adjust to the mech (or find a mech that fits you).

This means that there will be things that are great and awesome about Clans and stuff that sucks...but there will be things that are great an awesome (but things that also suck) about IS too. One should not, objectively be better than the other and to ask for anything other than that is an exercise in insanity based on ignorance at best.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

FTFY and also made it easier to read than that atrocious wall of text

...yeah, I tend to do Great Walls of Text when dealing with those who are willingly ignorant because I just don't like ignorance (willful or otherwise).

As far as your edit goes, that's what they're doing with MW5 (at least to my understanding at any rate). Sadly, that's not here yet and rather than complain about what should have been or worry about what may be, I prefer to concern myself with the present... and at present, we have a 12v12 TDM FPS Shooter, and folks need to understand and accept that.

[D V Devnull]

Okay, PGI, you blew it on the LRM5 Spread as well. Jumping from '3' to '4.2'? Should have been '3.8', which is most of the way toward where you put it, but without overkill that makes your change bad. Personally, I think it should be '3.6', but I'm siding on "shadow of a doubt" mentality. Here's a thread to read...

-> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/247588-lrm5-spread/

...and I'll catch you again later. Oh, by the way, people are getting cranky about your failing on keeping the Pre-FW-Match Chats functional. Here's two more links in that regard...

-> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/247584-enter-key-in-pre-game-scouting-chat-not-working/
-> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/247618-text-chat-in-faction-play-problem/

...and I've been had by this bug as well. Looking forward to a fix on these things... And that's let alone the lack of fix for the Tutorial/Academy BattleGrid Map Bug...

~Mr. D. V. "Something NOT a 'happy camper'..." Devnull

[AnimeFreak40K]

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yes, it's bad to "balance" this.

That is a terrible example for arguing against balance.

You are looking at real-world war and equipment and trying to apply it to a video game...based on a nonsensical fictional technology base that had factors of balance for the turn-based tabletop game that described/utilized that technology.

This is a video game, a PvP video game at that... and the fact of the matter is that these sorts of video games *MUST* have some sort of balance applied to them that make them objectively balanced with and against each other.

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

I sympathize with your altruism concerning the ignorant. At one point I would have been overwhelmingly delighted about MW5M but after seeing how PGI treats Clan and Inner Sphere tech bases (with disrespect and disregard) I have already decided I will not be buying it.

If a friend downloads a pirated version I may try it out though

...and this is where there is a disconnect...

People get so wrapped up in the Lore of BattleTech and how they think things "should be" in a real-time FPS PvP video game are, to be quite blunt, idiots. Not just any idiots, but the sort of idiots that really should not breed. Ever.
Yes, that is a harsh and probably more than a little unfair, but these are the same people that fail to understand or realize that changes *must* be made to the various components of the game to find a happy medium where the spirit of something is maintained without being objectively better.

If this weren't a PvP game, things like adhering to a tech-base's lore and balance really wasn't as much of an issue other than to ensure the fun-and-replayability factor wouldn't matter.

[D V Devnull]

Okay, yet ANOTHER UPDATE --

PGI has blown it. The Tutorial/Academy is NON-FUNCTIONAL with Patch 1.4.107, as I've come to find. I've started Bug Report threads...

-> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/247641-critical-failure-tutorialacademy-non-functional-patch-14107/
-> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/247643-critical-failure-tutorialacademy-non-functional-patch-14107/

~Mr. D. V. "Worse than irate..." Devnull

---

UPDATE: Maybe not so much... Last two things before I tried accessing were Scouting and looking in the In-Game Store. Then my client crashed and now I'm able to get in. Heading to update the Bug Reports now, as weird as this is...

~Mr. D. V. "Shocking myself today?" Devnull

Edited by D V Devnull, 22 March 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[ALEXANDER CARLYLE]

D V Devnull, on 22 March 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Did you have enough Free Disk Space BEFORE you ever tried to patch? If not, and the patch cycle blew up, then you're going to need about 40 GB to 50 GB open for a Full Reinstall. You may even have to run an Uninstall (but WITHOUT wiping your Saved Data) and then start reinstalling from the Installer Package that you first started with. PGI's Patcher can't determine where the problem initially happened, and has to start completely over again. After that's done, make sure whichever drive that MWO is installed on happens to have at least 35 GB free minimum constantly, or your problems will happen again.

Bonus Tip: Create an Install Directory for MWO that happens to only have the permission "Everyone: Full Control" and nothing else. It takes care of a lot of Install-related and Multi-User problems.

Also, if you've already done all of this, post back with information on everything you've done so far. Or get in contact with MWO Support, which might help more.

~Mr. D. V. "Got Problems? Don't give yourself a bad situation to start with..." Devnull

Yes. I appreciate the help but I did all this. I don't know what is going on but I will figure it out. I have the same issues some others have on the patch.

Edited by ALEXANDER CARLYLE, 22 March 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[ALEXANDER CARLYLE]

ALEXANDER CARLYLE, on 22 March 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yes. I appreciate the help but I did all this. I don't know what is going on but I will figure it out. I have the same issues some others have on the patch.

HEY.. just fixed it. Uninstall, reinstall and run the patcher. Something is going right.

[HUNTERS MOON]

ALEXANDER CARLYLE, on 22 March 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

HEY.. just fixed it. Uninstall, reinstall and run the patcher. Something is going right.

OK thanks...will keep trying.

Edited by HUNTERS MOON, 22 March 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Yes, it's bad to "balance" this.

Are we comparing the Clans to the US? That's real life. This is a game. A game that needs balance. Not a decided advantage to one side.

Edited by MechaBattler, 22 March 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[Zergling]

Schrollski, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

And what if it's a Hellbringer with an asymmetrical laser build?

Which is why asymmetrical builds aren't favored on Clan mechs anymore.

The penalties are worse than they used to be, but it still doesn't offset all the other advantages of using a Clan XL over a standard engine.
See the Clan battlemechs that do have the option to run standard engines; they are almost exclusively run with XLs, because the supposed 'zombie' capabilities of standard engines just aren't worth the weight.

Schrollski, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

There are more mechs in this game than just the Ebon Jag and the Thunderbolt.

See my early comparison of Black Knight versus Timber Wolf, similar conclusion to Thunderbolt vs Ebon Jaguar.

Clans are just better at high-heat laser vomit builds, while also being better at ballistic sustained DPS and PPFLD alpha.

Schrollski, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Apparently you're unaware of the existence of CT weapon hardpoints which could mean the difference between victory or defeat when you've lost your torso mounted weapons.

FYI, Thunderbolt doesn't have any of those CT hardpoints.

And with those mechs that do have them, the times they are reduced to just those CT weapons is very rare, as mechs are almost always CT cored before losing both side torsos.

Schrollski, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Also, a mech without weapons can still share armor, spot targets, throw up UAV's, and lay down an airstrike/artillery.

There's a reason people call out 'sticks' when they occur and ignore them; those roles are so minor as to be ignored.

Schrollski, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

All this proves is one build is better than the other in certain ways.

Uh no, it proves that even when identical in (negligible) engine disadvantages, the Clan mech is still superior.

But please, keep arguing about how a standard engine somehow makes up for all the massive disadvantages IS mechs have, which directly contradicts the collective wisdom of the experienced and skilled playerbase.

Edited by Zergling, 22 March 2017 - 04:17 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

But what it REALLY needs is to be a MechWarrior game at all. MWO wouldn't even be here now if it weren't for the foundation layed by past MechWarrior games and the BT novels.
Something so many of you have forgotten or choose to ignore.

Just like pathetic games incorporated.

You're being childish. This isn't the same as those past games. This is an online competitive game. We can't have one side stomping the other. Just so people can feel better about the lore or themselves.

[MovinTarget]

MechaBattler, on 22 March 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

This is a game. A game that needs balance.

If the clans have such a decided advantage, why are there so many threads from clanners whining about how good IS has it?

Before you say "if they can't win with superior tech, then its their fault", consider, they can say the same from their perspective about you.

I have played 800+ "siege" games and countless more in the new tug of war on QP maps. I play both sides and I can do 2k dmg either way or 800 dmg. To me that is a personal "balance" and I don't expect more from the game since PGI can't control the try-hards and the potatoes.

I am still curious what this mythical "balance" is that people demand... If we give everyone the exact same tech options, and they still lose, what will they blame?

[MechaBattler]

MovinTarget, on 22 March 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

If the clans have such a decided advantage, why are there so many threads from clanners whining about how good IS has it?

Before you say "if they can't win with superior tech, then its their fault", consider, they can say the same from their perspective about you.

I have played 800+ "siege" games and countless more in the new tug of war on QP maps. I play both sides and I can do 2k dmg either way or 800 dmg. To me that is a personal "balance" and I don't expect more from the game since PGI can't control the try-hards and the potatoes.

I am still curious what this mythical "balance" is that people demand... If we give everyone the exact same tech options, and they still lose, what will they blame?

"When it came to the Critical Hit system for Clans, we've identified that this was a fundamental point of imbalance. Due to the fact that Inner Sphere Components are larger and heavier, Inner Sphere Components were much more prone to being critted out directly because they had less overall Component Health to 'pad' the crit damage in comparison to their Clan counterparts.
This resulted in Inner Sphere 'Mechs suffering much more from Critical hits than the Clans, who can pack their 'Mechs with more Components of equal health."

Well that **** isn't balanced. And that's why they're changing it. Because IS equipment got critted more often due the larger size of equipment. The Clans were simply better able to crit pad their mechs. Go look at the comparisons they show.

This isn't some blanket attempt at nerfing the Clans. It's a fix to address an imbalance in the two factions. It's not like ages ago when they applied negative nerfs to Timber Wolves. This is a fundamental flaw in the crit system. But people are acting like this is coming from nowhere.

Edited by MechaBattler, 22 March 2017 - 04:36 PM.

[Zergling]

MovinTarget, on 22 March 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

If the clans have such a decided advantage, why are there so many threads from clanners whining about how good IS has it?

I highly recommend filtering whines by skill level.

When low skill level players are whining about balance, then their whines can be ignored.
When high skill level players are whining about balance, there is probably something to be concerned about.

[The6thMessenger]

I don't like the SRM4 and LRM5 changes. The SRM4 stood on where it's good without artemis, and it's better with Artemis but not garbage.

LRM5 is usually only used precisely because there's not enough slots and tonnage. LRM5 is the economical choice, but not the superior one if LRMs is the primary damage dealer. While you can mount 3 as a pseudo LRM15A, when you have enough slots and tonnage you can have 3x LRM10As or LRM15As that would have significant DPS.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

You fail to realize, or choose not to, that the reason there even is a game called MWO at all is because of the hard-core Lore fans such as myself and my teammates.

No, I realize this quite well. I just don't care. And neither does the lowest-common denominator. PGI doesn't care either; they care about making a video game that people like to play and they like being paid for making said video game.

You know who else doesn't care? Microsoft, the people that own the property and have leased it to PGI so that they can make a video game.

As a point of clarity, I know and understand that lore has a place in any franchise, whether it's a tabletop RPG or a long-standing video game. I also realize that the people who are going to get things started in any franchise are those that are fans of the lore.

But what *you* fail to realize, or choose not to, is the reality that people like you get things started, but it's people like me that keep it going. People like me who want a game that is fun, enjoyable and balanced.

Star Commander Horse, on 22 March 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Making a "but this is PvP" argument is lame. PGI could balance with implementation of a Clan Tradition Penalty System but they are lazy and just tweak the weapons instead. They are LAZY ********, and those that support their policies and decisions most likely are as well. Did you even graduate from college?

It may be lame, but it is reality.

The fact of the matter is that PGI could have done a LOT of things. However, they chose a path that made the most sense from the perspective of game-design and implementation. You don't have massive imbalances in a game where one side is objectively stronger/more powerful than another in a video game that pits players against each other. It doesn't work. You also don't actively *punish* players for playing the game in a way that they find fun and/or fulfilling. Both of those are the best and quickest ways to lose players. Period.

I will be quite clear, I understand that Lore is a thing in video games, and to some folks, being true to that lore is important. I accept this. But I also accept the harsh realities of the way people behave and some of the fundamental aspects of game-design. To understand what I am talking about, you do not really need to go too much farther than any other PvP game out there; especially those that have been around for a long time and are free-to-play.

In all seriousness, take a good hard look at how those games function on a mechanical level.

Oh, and to answer your question, yes, I did graduate from college; I have a BA in Graphic Communication and a CC in Web Design both from UMUC and, not that it matters, I completed that 4-year degree and certificate in less than 3, with a 3.6 GPA as a full-time student and working full-time as well. I've also been around the world. Twice.
I don't take pride in much, but I do take pride in that.

[Cpt Contego]

AnimeFreak40K, on 22 March 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

No, I realize this quite well. I just don't care. And neither does the lowest-common denominator. PGI doesn't care either; they care about making a video game that people like to play and they like being paid for making said video game.

You know who else doesn't care? Microsoft, the people that own the property and have leased it to PGI so that they can make a video game.

As a point of clarity, I know and understand that lore has a place in any franchise, whether it's a tabletop RPG or a long-standing video game. I also realize that the people who are going to get things started in any franchise are those that are fans of the lore.

But what *you* fail to realize, or choose not to, is the reality that people like you get things started, but it's people like me that keep it going. People like me who want a game that is fun, enjoyable and balanced.


It may be lame, but it is reality.

The fact of the matter is that PGI could have done a LOT of things. However, they chose a path that made the most sense from the perspective of game-design and implementation. You don't have massive imbalances in a game where one side is objectively stronger/more powerful than another in a video game that pits players against each other. It doesn't work. You also don't actively *punish* players for playing the game in a way that they find fun and/or fulfilling. Both of those are the best and quickest ways to lose players. Period.

I will be quite clear, I understand that Lore is a thing in video games, and to some folks, being true to that lore is important. I accept this. But I also accept the harsh realities of the way people behave and some of the fundamental aspects of game-design. To understand what I am talking about, you do not really need to go too much farther than any other PvP game out there; especially those that have been around for a long time and are free-to-play.

In all seriousness, take a good hard look at how those games function on a mechanical level.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[tayhimself]

Racerxintegra2k, on 22 March 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

The new crit system is dumb. Every time i lose armor i lose all my weapons on that component. Marauder with 2 LBX10's immediately lose it once the armor was gone ... Catapult with SRM4's .. lost half of them as soon as armor was gone. Every time PGI tries to fix something that isn't broken .... this becomes less fun.

I thought the new system was supposed to increase TTK. I've had the exact same experience as you. Weapons go as soon as armor is gone.