409 replies to this topic

[ThatGuy539]

The game will always be unbalanced.

Even if every mech was exactly the same, there'd still be the player skill and experience. Even the match maker can't balance that out very good without making some people wait long periods of time for (equal) players to become available.

There are hundreds of mechs to choose from. With a wide range of weapons, weapon placements, armor, speed, etc. etc. Some mechs and loadouts will just be better, and some will suck. Some mechs are easy mode, and some are hard. For the most part I know what I'm getting into when I jump into a mech.

So the game will never be balanced, and that's a good thing. Keeps it challenging and fun.
Winning all the time, or loosing all the time are boring. But I find its rather balanced as far as this. At least in the PUGs and most of the time in Group play. FW is a whole other kettle of fish due to their being no matchmaker, so uber teams can end up fighting total noobs consistently which isn't really fun for either side.

All things considered, it's not a bad game. It keeps bringing me back for more.

Some extra maps would be nice though. (Like maybe adding back the old ones...or some smaller maps anyway.)

[Zergling]

Wendigo Waltz, on 27 March 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

Do you happen to know where that is in the rule books? I have only found the repair rules and repair omni mechs is faster but not by that much. The local group has an ever stuck in planning stage clan campaign in the works and that will be really relevent info.

I think it is 15 minutes to remove/replace a single weapon/item, but I'll go have a look to make sure.

EDIT: most recent rules appear to be in Strategic Operations: it says Omnipod replacement, per location, is 30 minutes.
If the technician fails the dice roll, the time is doubled to 60 minutes.

So all the weapons/equipment in the left arm of an Omnimech would only take 30 minutes to replace, unless the tech derps up, in which case it'll take 1 hour.

So with weapons/equipment in all locations of an Omnimech (8 in total), and an utterly fail technician, it'd take a maximum of 8 hours to reconfigure an Omnimech between different configurations.

Edited by Zergling, 27 March 2017 - 06:35 AM.

[Edward Hazen]

ThatGuy539, on 27 March 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

The game will always be unbalanced.

Even if every mech was exactly the same, there'd still be the player skill and experience. Even the match maker can't balance that out very good without making some people wait long periods of time for (equal) players to become available.

There are hundreds of mechs to choose from. With a wide range of weapons, weapon placements, armor, speed, etc. etc. Some mechs and loadouts will just be better, and some will suck. Some mechs are easy mode, and some are hard. For the most part I know what I'm getting into when I jump into a mech.

So the game will never be balanced, and that's a good thing. Keeps it challenging and fun.
Winning all the time, or loosing all the time are boring. But I find its rather balanced as far as this. At least in the PUGs and most of the time in Group play. FW is a whole other kettle of fish due to their being no matchmaker, so uber teams can end up fighting total noobs consistently which isn't really fun for either side.

All things considered, it's not a bad game. It keeps bringing me back for more.

Some extra maps would be nice though. (Like maybe adding back the old ones...or some smaller maps anyway.)

Exactly, there are 100s of Mechs / variants, so instead of sticking with a mech that you do badly in and whining to have it buffed and other Mechs nerfed, you should just find a Mech that you are good with. Maybe PGI could have a "trade-in" option, if you can prove that your stats are consistently bad in a specific Mech after a certain amount of games?

[Mcgral18]

Schrollski, on 22 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

And what if it's a Hellbringer with an asymmetrical laser build?


Apparently you're unaware of the existence of CT weapon hardpoints which could mean the difference between victory or defeat when you've lost your torso mounted weapons. Also, a mech without weapons can still share armor, spot targets, throw up UAV's, and lay down an airstrike/artillery.

Name me a useful Zombie
Now name me a Clam mech which is superior to it (I'm sure there are many)

Clam mechs who could remove both STs before losing 1 to the Zombie, because of superior firepower, or weapon mounts.


As for the Loki, Shall we assume 6 ERML, 29 DHS build?
Something like this HBR-29 DHS

Assume he loses his Shield side, with 6 PoorDubs and his 10 TrueDubs+3 Engine Mounted to 60% effectiveness
Stock dissipation being
2+19(0.15)
*1.15
=5.5775 H/s dissipation

Remove six, and adjust the 3+10
2(.6)+3(.15)(.6)+10(.15)
*1.15
=3.2085

A hefty reduction

The example Spheroid mech with 18 DHS cools at
2+8(.15)
*1.15
=3.68 H/s

So, barely better than the already damaged Clam mech (who took a 43% total cooling loss)
Let me tell you, that is plenty to fight with. The 29 DHS loadout is a surprisingly effective, as sustainable as it is (for a Laser boat).
It's a good PUG farmer, most of my (very few) Heavy leaderboard matches being it (and a few Gyr, I think)

Zergling, on 24 March 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

Yeah, I've had enough.

I think I'll take my own advice from before:


When I see high skill level players saying IS are overpowered/Clans underpowered, that's when I'll bother paying attention.

He is pretty Potato. At least 1 K/d ratio, which is good for Potatos, but the sub 200 AMS seals the deal. He changed his name, so you'd need that to see his previous seasons (unless you'd actually want to check several of the previous seasons, and cross reference the pilot names, and single out the repeats....but ain't nobody got time fo dat)

You could compare his score, and his position, to my score, and my position:
Clam mechs are superior
Not overwhelmingly, but the range and the cXL offers excellent opportunities to murder mechs before they can meaningfully damage you, or go full brawl, and do that CONSIDERABLY better than any Spheroid mech
They need heavy quirks to compete in any role
Griffin brawls alright, with his massive Structure quirks, and decent mounts
But the unquirked Timby or slightly quirked Nova? They are burst damage monsters, with SPLs and cSRM6+A (not the Nova, obviously, but as a weapon system on other good Clam robots)

Odanan, on 24 March 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

I agree Clan ACs needed to be like IS ACs (single round) - that would certainly make me use Clan ACs. And to be fair, IS UACs should be burst fire like the Clan ones (especially those incoming IS UAC/10 and UAC/20).

The biggest problem is not the Clan weapons (which are lighter, smaller, do more damage and have much better range) - this is compensated with longer burn times and - especially - a lot of heat. The problem is the Clan equipment: FF (half the size, greater bonus), ES (half the size), omni tech (which yes, in this game has it's own disadvantages) and last but not least, Clan XL Engines.

I'll agree that Clam weapons are not outrageously superior. A factor, but not the largest.
The fact they can take many more, while moving faster, and cooling better, all combine for an overall superior robot

I do not agree with single shot cACs for that reason
They can be buffed, but in other ways. With isUACs coming into the game, normal isACs will also need buffs. Might as well give them the same, to make a niche for the normal AC family: Accuracy
Or, consistency at long range
Up their velocity a fair amount, 30-50% faster. If the AC20 travelled over 1 KM/s, to the 630M/s Bowling Ball of the UACs, they may be considered for certain robots.

Keep the UACs has the burst damage hose (and ideally RACs as the DPS option)



But, you cannot go and make the cACs single shot without either nerfing them significantly in other ways (cooldown, potentially) or buffing the isACs significantly. They fact they're significantly lighter and often times smaller means it's a poor option.

Edward Hazen, on 27 March 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

Exactly, there are 100s of Mechs / variants, so instead of sticking with a mech that you do badly in and whining to have it buffed and other Mechs nerfed, you should just find a Mech that you are good with. Maybe PGI could have a "trade-in" option, if you can prove that your stats are consistently bad in a specific Mech after a certain amount of games?

Unacceptable

No robot should be left purposely useless (which PGI has shown to be fine...I don't like that)


Not all will be competitive, but when half decent Clam mechs (Ice Fridge) have better quirks than Trash Tier Spheroid, there's an issue.
Fridge does need some quirks, and they make him competitive
That is good


Do that for more Spheroid robots.

[Weepy Wanebow]

Edward Hazen, on 27 March 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

Exactly, there are 100s of Mechs / variants, so instead of sticking with a mech that you do badly in and whining to have it buffed and other Mechs nerfed, you should just find a Mech that you are good with. Maybe PGI could have a "trade-in" option, if you can prove that your stats are consistently bad in a specific Mech after a certain amount of games?

Just finding a better mech wouldnt be that bad of an option if they kept coming out with new stuff that changed the meta like new weapons and not just new mechs. Thats why a lot of people are excited for the tech jump. If everything had base stats and the approach was "just play good stuff" it would alienate a lot of IS players with the current "stay in 3053 forever" approach. IS players have the right to enjoy their toys just as mi5ch as clan players. They should have been advancing the timeline all along instead of trying a bunch of different systems and approachs. If they had at least given each side the same weapons (name wise) then it would have been a much smaller issue i think. By not doing that...that's why we have all these weird and half broken ideas for "fixing balance"

[Weepy Wanebow]

Zergling, on 27 March 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

I think it is 15 minutes to remove/replace a single weapon/item, but I'll go have a look to make sure.

EDIT: most recent rules appear to be in Strategic Operations: it says Omnipod replacement, per location, is 30 minutes.
If the technician fails the dice roll, the time is doubled to 60 minutes.

So all the weapons/equipment in the left arm of an Omnimech would only take 30 minutes to replace, unless the tech derps up, in which case it'll take 1 hour.

So with weapons/equipment in all locations of an Omnimech (8 in total), and an utterly fail technician, it'd take a maximum of 8 hours to reconfigure an Omnimech between different configurations.

Thanks. I had a feeling it was in strat ops but its the book im least familiar with and probably just over looked it.

[Zergling]

Wendigo Waltz, on 27 March 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Thanks. I had a feeling it was in strat ops but its the book im least familiar with and probably just over looked it.

I think earlier iterations of the rules appeared in books like Maximum Tech and others previously, but I can't be buggered digging through them right now to make sure.

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

He is pretty Potato. At least 1 K/d ratio, which is good for Potatos, but the sub 200 AMS seals the deal. He changed his name, so you'd need that to see his previous seasons (unless you'd actually want to check several of the previous seasons, and cross reference the pilot names, and single out the repeats....but ain't nobody got time fo dat)

Only took me about 2 minutes to work out he'd changed his name, and work out what the previous name was.


And it only took me a few minutes more to total up the stats across all seasons, for overall and each weight class:
Overall stats = 0.97 W/L, 1.19 K/D, 0.78 K/B, 190 avg MS
Light mech stats = N/A, doesn't play light mechs
Medium mech stats = 1.07 W/L, 0.90 K/D, 0.58 K/B, 151 avg MS (barely plays mediums either, just 60 battles total)
Heavy mech stats = 0.89 W/L, 1.17 K/D, 0.72 K/B, 176 avg MS
Assault mech stats = 1.04 W/L, 1.27 K/D, 0.88 K/B, 215 avg MS

tl:dr his stats are fairly starchy

EDIT: I also have too much time on my hands.

Edited by Zergling, 27 March 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[MovinTarget]

I own most all variants, and while there were some i did not care much for, I would only term them "useless" if they are un-levelable...

Some are exceptionally niche (Vindicator comes to mind), but often it is the skills and imagination of the pilot that make a mech shine...

[Edward Hazen]

There are IS Mechs that are better than other IS Mechs and there are Clan Mechs that are better than other Clan Mechs, it is supposed to be like this and you have the choice to buy a top-tier Mech, or to buy a Mech because you like it for whatever other reason. Also, you can buff / nerf and quirk Mechs until the end of time, but when do we stop and realize that the problem is the pilot and not the Mech? I mostly play my Summoner, it is in a good place at the moment, but it has never been considered a top-tier Clan Mech. I continue to play the Summoner because I have always like the Mech and I do not cry to PGI to nerf Timber Wolves, because they are better in many ways.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 27 March 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Edward Hazen, on 27 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

There are IS Mechs that are better than other IS Mechs and there are Clan Mechs that are better than other Clan Mechs, it is supposed to be like this and you have the choice to buy a top-tier Mech, or to buy a Mech because you like it for whatever other reason. Also, you can buff / nerf and quirk Mechs until the end of time, but when do we stop and realize that the problem is the pilot and not the Mech? I mostly play my Summoner, it is in a good place at the moment, but it has never been considered a top-tier Clan Mech. I continue to play the Summoner because I have always like the Mech and I do not cry to PGI to nerf Timber Wolves, because they are better in many ways.

False

Summoner is among the top rated Clams, in the form of a brawler, with massive Structure quirks
Just like the Griffin, with an added SRM6+A and even more durability

Used to be the best poptart too, but nerfed. Dem nipple mounts+massive quirks



A good pilot in a good robot does better than a good pilot in a mediocre robot, so that argument is null.
Timber Wolf has succumbed to Power Creep. It's no longer the best, but it can stay where it is.

[Edward Hazen]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

False

Summoner is among the top rated Clams, in the form of a brawler, with massive Structure quirks
Just like the Griffin, with an added SRM6+A and even more durability

Used to be the best poptart too, but nerfed. Dem nipple mounts+massive quirks



A good pilot in a good robot does better than a good pilot in a mediocre robot, so that argument is null.
Timber Wolf has succumbed to Power Creep. It's no longer the best, but it can stay where it is.

Since the last patch, the Summoner does not brawl as well, since you can not afford to have your armor stripped off quickly or you will easily lose weapons, heatsinks, engine. Also, I have piloted Summoners since they came out, even before they were quirked. Your argument about better pilots in better Mechs is flawed, because "better" is very subjective and there are many factors that add to a Mech's viability. Your argument that there should not be "useless" Mechs is personal opinion. Try playing any MOBA where there are many different characters and you will find that there will always be some that are better than others and some that are rarely taken and, or very situational. There will always be "good" and "bad" Mechs and "good" and "bad" Mechwarriors, there is no way to fix that unless you make all Mechs the same and then the game is no longer a "BattleTech" or "MechWarrior" game.

So, I will say it again, buy a top-tier Mech if you are concerned about having the best stats, or. Buy another Mech because you like it for any other reason.

FYI - Mechs are not "robots" since they require a pilot and are not autonomous.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 27 March 2017 - 12:36 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Edward Hazen, on 27 March 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Since the last patch, the Summoner does not brawl as well, since you can not afford to have your armor stripped off quickly or you will easily lose weapons, heatsinks, engine. Also, I have piloted Summoners since they came out, even before they were quirked. Your argument about better pilots in better Mechs is flawed, because "better" is very subjective and there are many factors that add to a Mech's viability. Your argument that there should not be "useless" Mechs is personal opinion. Try playing any MOBA where there are many different characters and you will find that there will always be some that are better than others and some that are rarely taken and, or very situational. There will always be "good" and "bad" Mechs and "good" and "bad" Mechwarriors, there is no way to fix that unless you make all Mechs the same and then the game is no longer a "BattleTech" or "MechWarrior" game.

So, I will say it again, buy a top-tier Mech if you are concerned about having the best stats, or. Buy another Mech because you like it for any other reason.

FYI - Mechs are not "robots" since they require a pilot and are not autonomous.

No, roles in MWO are not that diverse

Perhaps on opposite ends of the spectrum, of Assault VS Light, but I can competently pilot most Gundams
As long as they offer half decent loadouts (and ideally, not Trash Tier)


I'm good in a Viper and a KDK3, as well as a Loki. A Hunch 2C is my second fun pick, although the Viper is a Pseudo Light, not a Medium.


Your Crit padded SRM6+As should do fine, annihilating the Spheroid scum before you lose armor. He does have them spread out, unlike the Griffin.



As for Robots, there's one role in MWO: Shoot robots.
It's Shooty Stompy Robots, after all. The Vindi has no role. It does not to anything well. It poptarts worse than the H2C, it isn't as fast as the Fridge, it doesn't poke as well as a BJ
It it had 3 missiles, it could at least have something (better concentration than the BJ, and non-arm mounted)
But, it doesn't. It's a bad robot.


You, as the Leaderboard show, are not a terrible good pilot. Your opinion on the state of Gundams is likely bias
I can make both Spheroid and Clam robots work considerably better than you've shown.
My opinion is that Clams are better, and the evidence generally points towards that. I can show you the numbers, if you want.

Good robots perform better than Bad robots (including most Lights) and the good Clams perform above the good Spheroid robots.

[Edward Hazen]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

No, roles in MWO are not that diverse

Perhaps on opposite ends of the spectrum, of Assault VS Light, but I can competently pilot most Gundams
As long as they offer half decent loadouts (and ideally, not Trash Tier)


I'm good in a Viper and a KDK3, as well as a Loki. A Hunch 2C is my second fun pick, although the Viper is a Pseudo Light, not a Medium.


Your Crit padded SRM6+As should do fine, annihilating the Spheroid scum before you lose armor. He does have them spread out, unlike the Griffin.



As for Robots, there's one role in MWO: Shoot robots.
It's Shooty Stompy Robots, after all. The Vindi has no role. It does not to anything well. It poptarts worse than the H2C, it isn't as fast as the Fridge, it doesn't poke as well as a BJ
It it had 3 missiles, it could at least have something (better concentration than the BJ, and non-arm mounted)
But, it doesn't. It's a bad robot.


You, as the Leaderboard show, are not a terrible good pilot. Your opinion on the state of Gundams is likely bias
I can make both Spheroid and Clam robots work considerably better than you've shown.
My opinion is that Clams are better, and the evidence generally points towards that. I can show you the numbers, if you want.

Good robots perform better than Bad robots (including most Lights) and the good Clams perform above the good Spheroid robots.

I never claim to be good or even decent, also, this account is still relatively new, so my stats are skewed because I am still mastering Mechs and having to play variants that I am not comfortable with. My stats for the Summoner Prime should be fairly accurate now, since I have played it for a good number of games since I mastered it and bought a couple modules. Currently, I am levelling my ShadowCat and have played it for two games and currently have a 4.00 k/d ratio with it because I was lucky and got 4 kills in one match. I do not expect to be able to maintain a 4.00 k/d with my ShadowCat Prime (stock). Anyway, that is irrelevant to my argument.

[Zergling]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

False

Summoner is among the top rated Clams, in the form of a brawler, with massive Structure quirks
Just like the Griffin, with an added SRM6+A and even more durability

Used to be the best poptart too, but nerfed. Dem nipple mounts+massive quirks

Can confirm that Summoner was a ridiculously good poptart before nerfs.

Since some people require proof, here's the stats I pulled while mastering the F and M:



Then when I played another 42 battles in them, bringing them both up to 50 each:


For those 42 battles played while mastered, I hit 2.50 W/L, 5.06 K/D, 1.93 K/B, 739 damage/battle and 451 average match score.
For a mediocre player like me, that is insanely good; the mech was just OP as ****balls.

I haven't played it since the nerfs, but other decent players say it is still good, just not as stupidly OP.

Edited by Zergling, 27 March 2017 - 06:40 PM.

[ThatGuy539]

Personally I don't mind the fact that there are a very diverse collection of mechs in the game. Usually I run middle of the road mechs (when I'm not leveling up new ones), but sometimes I'll take out a meta mech, or a crap mech.

Although the crap mechs can be rather frustrating at times. The Vindicator jumps to mind....no matter how well Flyby215 can do in that crap St.Ives. That mech in particular annoys me. You would think that they could at least give it flashing police lights to make it suck a tiny bit less....although that would make it a bigger target. (I hear that the new hero urbie might have working police lights. Hope they can be turned on and off.)
Realistically though, the ability to put a bigger engine in this mech would go a long way towards helping it. The urbies got the ability to put bigger engines in, so why not this one.

Maybe PGI's objective should be to bump up the super crap mechs to a point where they are on or just below average. Just to get them back in the game. There are mechs that you just never see, or very rarely. No mech should be so bad that no one ever uses it, or what's the point of even having it in the game. There should be a base line that all mechs should at least meet.

I have to admit that some of the quirks are fun though. Like the old Hugin and Oxide. Once really fun, now kinda bland.

If nothing else, I suppose all the nerfs and quirks have made me change my go-to mechs from time to time. So it keeps it kinda fresh that way.

I imagine that the new skill tree will mix things up quite a bit too. Should be interesting.

Ya, I'm a bit all over the place with this. I'm tired and hungry...I need a nap.

[Aramuside]

James Wirth, on 23 March 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

Any calling legitimately torqued-off Clan players "whiners," and demanding that we shut up and go away, doesn't undermine your arguments?

And making up things or just confusing players....????? (I never said that at all but I doubt you're the sort to apologise)

I said I play both sides so I'm interested to see how things go as the ATM's look great if just 1 ammo type etc etc.

[Grus]

Aramuside, on 28 March 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

And making up things or just confusing players....????? (I never said that at all but I doubt you're the sort to apologise)

I said I play both sides so I'm interested to see how things go as the ATM's look great if just 1 ammo type etc etc.

oh God yes. I can't wait to try them on my maddog and Huntsman.sadly they are the only real interesting wepons clanners are getting. I forsee the heavy lasers just being too hot.

[Carl Vickers]

Grus, on 03 April 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

oh God yes. I can't wait to try them on my maddog and Huntsman.sadly they are the only real interesting wepons clanners are getting. I forsee the heavy lasers just being too hot.

Well in your case if they are too hot you are going to be a



Please try not to comment till you know some real facts.

[Edward Hazen]

Carl Vickers, on 03 April 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Well in your case if they are too hot you are going to be a



Please try not to comment till you know some real facts.

I believe that we need further moderation for you "pro" players. Also, the trend has been for Clan lasers to have their heat increased from TT, so Heavy Lasers will be no different, these are facts.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 03 April 2017 - 10:34 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Edward Hazen, on 03 April 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

I believe that we need further moderation for you "pro" players. Also, the trend has been for Clan lasers to have their heat increased from TT, so Heavy Lasers will be no different, these are facts.

Good thing this is not TT then. Both sides get around 2 alphas off before heat capping on lazor boats so it is working fine. The only difference is the Ebon Jag 2 large pulse 6 ermids, but that mech is all about the peek and poke game.