37 replies to this topic

[Abisha]

the update tomorrow leaves me bit in a worry.
the components nerf looks like a massive nerf to clans.
sure some clan mechs are really over the top "timber" for instance tanks like assault mech.

but their are clan mechs really weak example Ebony feels like a paper mech
same go's for the super nova it might look really tanky but it's not the internal components already fall off easy when being fired on that will be even worse tomorrow.
they should nerf clan mechs individual not general.

[Mcgral18]

This changes nothing

By the time your structure is open, you are very near death anyhow
But now, you won't lose two of your big guns when a Gauss Rifle hits 14 armor. Probably


The Crit HP (cHP) is entirely different to REAL HP (Internal Structure and Armor, IS&A)
You'll take the same 15% CritDam into real Dam, and you have the same amount of IS&A
The only thing which might happen is losing more items to Crits, because all your free Crit Padding items were reduced in HP

[Snazzy Dragon]

doesn't matter for the most part

the component is gone long before the internals on most clan mechs

really, the only big offenders you'll see hit are mist lynx (those arm weapons will disappear as soon as the armor is gone, structure quirks won't matter-- kind of sad), mad IIC (warranted a nerf like this anyway), dire wolf, and kodiak 3 (well deserved)

Everything else you'll probably never notice a real difference

[Khobai]

stormcrow needs to be allowed back in scout mode though with component nerf

[Felicitatem Parco]

Khobai, on 20 March 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

stormcrow needs to be allowed back in scout mode though with component nerf

Then IS should bring 60 tonners. There is a weight gap between factions for a reason. When the new tech drops, that would be a good time to consider treating them as equals.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Prosperity Park, on 20 March 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Then IS should bring 60 tonners. There is a weight gap between factions for a reason. When the new tech drops, that would be a good time to consider treating them as equals.

Stormcrow is on equal grounds with the IS Griffin 2N when built properly. The *only* reason people took the stormcrow out of the equation is because many IS potatoes whined about streakcrows tearing apart their unoptimized light mechs and under armored mediums.

When new tech drops IS will absolutely decimate the Clans. The Stormcrow's 12 SPL build will likely still be the best the Clans can field at that weight, maybe ATMs will be of some use if their targeting isn't setup to be like streaks. Meanwhile for IS LFE will place IS far in the lead in terms of durability and the MRMs will boost their alpha potentials through the roof, not to mention UAC20s with the potential of frontloaded damage.

Griffin 2N could pack in 2 MRM40s, LFE 275, 4 tons of ammo, and ECM without even stripping the arms, allowing for an 80 damage front loaded alpha at mid range while the Stormcrow is left with its 72 damage short range laser alpha that it is forced to split into two salvos to avoid ghost heat.

Yeah, totally equal.

Please do remember that the official reason PGI gave for the weight imbalance was that there were more higher tiered teams with merc contracts with the Clans than there were in the IS, not that there was a tech imbalance. Expect many teams to swap to IS when they see how little new stuff the Clans got compared to the IS.

[Andi Nagasia]

will not matter much, but will be testing it when Live(probably with McGral)
to see if it will really matter, their is a chance it will on Heavy/Assault mechs(with lots of Structure)
not so much with Lighter Mechs unless you get really unlucky with Crits,

IS MGs may see great Promose with this,
(will test how fast a SDR eats all 6 lasers on a NVA arm)

[R Valentine]

Dakota1000, on 20 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Stormcrow is on equal grounds with the IS Griffin 2N when built properly. The *only* reason people took the stormcrow out of the equation is because many IS potatoes whined about streakcrows tearing apart their unoptimized light mechs and under armored mediums.

When new tech drops IS will absolutely decimate the Clans. The Stormcrow's 12 SPL build will likely still be the best the Clans can field at that weight, maybe ATMs will be of some use if their targeting isn't setup to be like streaks. Meanwhile for IS LFE will place IS far in the lead in terms of durability and the MRMs will boost their alpha potentials through the roof, not to mention UAC20s with the potential of frontloaded damage.

Griffin 2N could pack in 2 MRM40s, LFE 275, 4 tons of ammo, and ECM without even stripping the arms, allowing for an 80 damage front loaded alpha at mid range while the Stormcrow is left with its 72 damage short range laser alpha that it is forced to split into two salvos to avoid ghost heat.

Yeah, totally equal.

Please do remember that the official reason PGI gave for the weight imbalance was that there were more higher tiered teams with merc contracts with the Clans than there were in the IS, not that there was a tech imbalance. Expect many teams to swap to IS when they see how little new stuff the Clans got compared to the IS.

Clan salt is best salt.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kiran Yagami, on 20 March 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

Clan salt is best salt.

You're implying I'm a clanner there mate.

I'm a merc, I go where the money is and I enjoy the benefits of being able to swap between factions and play whatever mechs I want. I own a pretty equal number of IS and Clan mechs and will have fun crushing clan mechs under my mech's heels. Still, I can see when something's going to be horribly unbalanced. It helps to be able to see that when you're picking out your contracts so that you're on the side stomping, and making those easy cbills.

[Mcgral18]

Dakota1000, on 20 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Stormcrow is on equal grounds with the IS Griffin 2N when built properly. The *only* reason people took the stormcrow out of the equation is because many IS potatoes whined about streakcrows tearing apart their unoptimized light mechs and under armored mediums.

When new tech drops IS will absolutely decimate the Clans. The Stormcrow's 12 SPL build will likely still be the best the Clans can field at that weight, maybe ATMs will be of some use if their targeting isn't setup to be like streaks. Meanwhile for IS LFE will place IS far in the lead in terms of durability and the MRMs will boost their alpha potentials through the roof, not to mention UAC20s with the potential of frontloaded damage.

Griffin 2N could pack in 2 MRM40s, LFE 275, 4 tons of ammo, and ECM without even stripping the arms, allowing for an 80 damage front loaded alpha at mid range while the Stormcrow is left with its 72 damage short range laser alpha that it is forced to split into two salvos to avoid ghost heat.

Yeah, totally equal.

Please do remember that the official reason PGI gave for the weight imbalance was that there were more higher tiered teams with merc contracts with the Clans than there were in the IS, not that there was a tech imbalance. Expect many teams to swap to IS when they see how little new stuff the Clans got compared to the IS.

...seriously?

LFE more durable than Clam XL? I guess those quirks might be staying for a cycle or two. The whine will bring them down

More seriously: HOW do you fit 2 MRM40s on it?
It has 23 tons with Endo, LFE 275, and stripped arms
Each MRM40 weights 12 tons
If you remove your Jesus Box, that nets you 1.5 tons, or 0.5 tons of ammo

At best, MRM60 with 40+20, 4 tons of ammo. That's with 1 HoverJet+Jesus Box, and LFF


Clams will reign superior, because that 60 LOLpha of yours is neither pinpoint, and not likely to be frontloaded either. Streaming (or volleys) will be all but required to prevent the massive Shitreg of that many simultaneous explosions.

[Abisha]

Mcgral18, on 20 March 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

...seriously?

LFE more durable than Clam XL? I guess those quirks might be staying for a cycle or two. The whine will bring them down

More seriously: HOW do you fit 2 MRM40s on it?
It has 23 tons with Endo, LFE 275, and stripped arms
Each MRM40 weights 12 tons
If you remove your Jesus Box, that nets you 1.5 tons, or 0.5 tons of ammo

At best, MRM60 with 40+20, 4 tons of ammo. That's with 1 HoverJet+Jesus Box, and LFF


Clams will reign superior, because that 60 LOLpha of yours is neither pinpoint, and not likely to be frontloaded either. Streaming (or volleys) will be all but required to prevent the massive Shitreg of that many simultaneous explosions.

ho ho guys this is about armor, not weapons systems alpha strikes (which should not exist in MWO) or LFE which barely know nothing about.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Dakota1000, on 20 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Stormcrow is on equal grounds with the IS Griffin 2N when built properly. The *only* reason people took the stormcrow out of the equation is because many IS potatoes whined about streakcrows tearing apart their unoptimized light mechs and under armored mediums.

When new tech drops IS will absolutely decimate the Clans. The Stormcrow's 12 SPL build will likely still be the best the Clans can field at that weight, maybe ATMs will be of some use if their targeting isn't setup to be like streaks. Meanwhile for IS LFE will place IS far in the lead in terms of durability and the MRMs will boost their alpha potentials through the roof, not to mention UAC20s with the potential of frontloaded damage.

Griffin 2N could pack in 2 MRM40s, LFE 275, 4 tons of ammo, and ECM without even stripping the arms, allowing for an 80 damage front loaded alpha at mid range while the Stormcrow is left with its 72 damage short range laser alpha that it is forced to split into two salvos to avoid ghost heat.

Yeah, totally equal.

Please do remember that the official reason PGI gave for the weight imbalance was that there were more higher tiered teams with merc contracts with the Clans than there were in the IS, not that there was a tech imbalance. Expect many teams to swap to IS when they see how little new stuff the Clans got compared to the IS.

2xMRM40 won't happen, 2xMRM20, 1xSnub Nose PPC, ECM, XL275, 4 tons of ammo likely will happen. 2xMRM40 is just way too heavy. Could also run 4xMRM10, 1xSNPPC, ECM, XL275, and 4 tons of ammo, 4 JJ's, stripping the left arm armor. Sure you could go with more MRM with losing the PPC, but, the PPC is going to help a lot. As for IS suddenly becoming far more powerful than clan with civil war tech. I really doubt it, double damage lasers for more crit slots for clan is going to slice and dice IS just fine, 2xHLL or 2xHML with SPL as back up will be murderous.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Abisha, on 20 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

the update tomorrow leaves me bit in a worry.
the components nerf looks like a massive nerf to clans.
sure some clan mechs are really over the top "timber" for instance tanks like assault mech.

but their are clan mechs really weak example Ebony feels like a paper mech
same go's for the super nova it might look really tanky but it's not the internal components already fall off easy when being fired on that will be even worse tomorrow.
they should nerf clan mechs individual not general.

Smaller IS components are getting an HP nerf as well, so it's not just clanners getting hit by this. It'll hit clanners harder because all their tech is smaller, but smaller Clan everything is a big contributor to the IS v Clan imbalance.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 20 March 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mcgral18, on 20 March 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

...seriously?

LFE more durable than Clam XL? I guess those quirks might be staying for a cycle or two. The whine will bring them down

More seriously: HOW do you fit 2 MRM40s on it?
It has 23 tons with Endo, LFE 275, and stripped arms
Each MRM40 weights 12 tons
If you remove your Jesus Box, that nets you 1.5 tons, or 0.5 tons of ammo

At best, MRM60 with 40+20, 4 tons of ammo. That's with 1 HoverJet+Jesus Box, and LFF


Clams will reign superior, because that 60 LOLpha of yours is neither pinpoint, and not likely to be frontloaded either. Streaming (or volleys) will be all but required to prevent the massive Shitreg of that many simultaneous explosions.

I calculated MRM40 at 10 tons instead of 12. Though its still possible to put two of them onto your mech with 2.5 tons of ammo and no ECM if you don't also have FF or LFF, which is good enough to get you through a scouting match. Here's my calculations, 43 tons free space with stripped arms and some stripped head or leg armor with endo steel, 16.5 tons for LFE275, 24 tons for MRM80, 2.5 tons of ammo. Players could just lower the engine to somewhere between LFE250 and LFE275 for the extra ammo at the cost of a couple kph if the ammo boost PGI gives over table top isn't high enough and if the skill tree ammo boosts don't come in.

If the MRMs end up stream fired and spread like SRMs then I think it'll be pretty equal, because IS still has the heavy range advantage in this case and more durability unless their structure gets nerfed or LFEs end up with penalties like a CXL for losing a side. I'm still doubting it'll end up so equal though. Especially if we consider combinations setup just for scouting, such as something like adding in those RL20s, using light or snub nose PPCs up close, and their pairings with MRMs.

Really it all depends on just how good or bad the new weapons end up and if PGI is going to have them be underpowered or if its going to be like Clan Wave I all over again. Still, the LFEs alone push the balance to IS side's favor in my opinion.

[Mcgral18]

Abisha, on 20 March 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

ho ho guys this is about armor, not weapons systems alpha strikes (which should not exist in MWO) or LFE which barely know nothing about.

I'm not sure you understand what you're trying to say


What do we not know about the LFE? We know the weight, the slots, and it will take 2 STs to die

What we don't know are the penalties, ideally none (and buffed STDs+isXLs)
More than likely, same penalties as Clam XLs, because PGI

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 20 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Stormcrow is on equal grounds with the IS Griffin 2N when built properly. The *only* reason people took the stormcrow out of the equation is because many IS potatoes whined about streakcrows tearing apart their unoptimized light mechs and under armored mediums.

When new tech drops IS will absolutely decimate the Clans. The Stormcrow's 12 SPL build will likely still be the best the Clans can field at that weight, maybe ATMs will be of some use if their targeting isn't setup to be like streaks. Meanwhile for IS LFE will place IS far in the lead in terms of durability and the MRMs will boost their alpha potentials through the roof, not to mention UAC20s with the potential of frontloaded damage.

Griffin 2N could pack in 2 MRM40s, LFE 275, 4 tons of ammo, and ECM without even stripping the arms, allowing for an 80 damage front loaded alpha at mid range while the Stormcrow is left with its 72 damage short range laser alpha that it is forced to split into two salvos to avoid ghost heat.

Yeah, totally equal.

Please do remember that the official reason PGI gave for the weight imbalance was that there were more higher tiered teams with merc contracts with the Clans than there were in the IS, not that there was a tech imbalance. Expect many teams to swap to IS when they see how little new stuff the Clans got compared to the IS.

You really think that the new tech like the LFE is going to place the I.S. "far in the lead" for durability?

the LFE is half the weight savings of the Clan XL. So what will a previously XL equiped mech give up to fit the heavier LFE?

Speed? because a smaller engine needed to be used. The now slower mech is more easily out manuvered.

Maybe give up armor? well that's directly impacting durability negativley.

Fewer weapons? well now you will be severely out gunned and not likely to make efficent trades in exchanges of fire.

Lighter weapons? usually means less range and that means fewer opertunities to engage or overall less damage but mostly it's BOTH.

So a Griffin 2N with a LFE will either drop to a smaller rated LFE or reduce weapon payload and the ECM making it an oversized slow light mech in terms of firepower.

As for the new I.S. tech the majority of it will be simply heavier bulkier versions of clan tech. Combine the this with I.S. endo steel and the I.S. mechs are starved for both tonage and space. It will be give and take unlike clan tech that frequently allows you to fill a mech to weapon capacity and still have unused tonnage.

I wouldn't worry about the I.S. UACs it is highly unlikely that an Inner Sphere UAC20 with fire two 20 point slugs. It is more likely that I.S. UACs will use 5 point submunitions so a UAC20 will probably fire 4 slugs per 20 damage.

As for the clans having better pilots as reflected by Tiers...well this is a direct result of clan equipment granting better performance. I always go noticably better when using clan mechs.

The clan tech advantages provide to boost in performance it's not neccissarily just the innate tallent of the pilots.

[Abisha]

Mcgral18, on 20 March 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

I'm not sure you understand what you're trying to say


What do we not know about the LFE? We know the weight, the slots, and it will take 2 STs to die

What we don't know are the penalties, ideally none (and buffed STDs+isXLs)
More than likely, same penalties as Clam XLs, because PGI

basic you know nothing about LFE other that they bring in MWO universe.
how they gonna work it out in MWO is still unknown and still can be altered see EULA for examples.

also it's very unlikely they add new engine without serious drawbacks they already balanced most Clan/is mechs add new engine to IS without drawback is like adding Xx tonnage to IS mech which they get freely which is very unlikely.

Edited by Abisha, 20 March 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Abisha, on 20 March 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

basic you know nothing about LFE other that they bring in MWO universe.
how they gonna work it out in MWO is still unknown and still can be altered see EULA for examples.

also it's very unlikely they add new engine without serious drawbacks they already balanced most Clan/is mechs add new engine to IS without drawback is like adding Xx tonnage to IS mech which they get freely which is very unlikely.

They will likely take the same slots and have the same tonnage as on tabletop, with the +5/+6 tons that PGI does to all engines for rolling in cockpit and gyro weights into engines. So really we know exactly how much they weigh, how much slots (and where said slots go) they will take up, and we know they will not die on losing a side torso as PGI is still running off of 3 engine crits = dead mech (hence why an IS XL with 3 engine crits in each side torso dies when it loses a side torso). The main difference at this point is if PGI rounds up or down to the nearest .5 tons, likely up instead of down. In which case people have already done the math for how much each engine will weigh.

[Mcgral18]

Abisha, on 20 March 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

basic you know nothing about LFE other that they bring in MWO universe.
how they gonna work it out in MWO is still unknown and still can be altered see EULA for examples.

also it's very unlikely they add new engine without serious drawbacks they already balanced most Clan/is mechs add new engine to IS without drawback is like adding Xx tonnage to IS mech which they get freely which is very unlikely.

lol

[Revis Volek]

Abisha, on 20 March 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

basic you know nothing about LFE other that they bring in MWO universe.
how they gonna work it out in MWO is still unknown and still can be altered see EULA for examples.

also it's very unlikely they add new engine without serious drawbacks they already balanced most Clan/is mechs add new engine to IS without drawback is like adding Xx tonnage to IS mech which they get freely which is very unlikely.

lol


wut?