49 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Only those who were to derp to make IS laservomit work properly would consider clan Laservomit too powerful. if I could get a copy of some mech chassis for IS tehc and rules I totally would paly some "IS mechs" But i liek chicken legs and real arms, but the IS has not many mechs with these characteristics. So atm from this point, I wait still for the Black Hawk KU .

[Livaria]

I think it's important to consider what makes ANY type of laser vomit powerful in the first place. I want to know where your frustrations come from. This could come from ANY facet of gameplay. People need to answer these questions with a thoughtful response:

- Does it cause too much damage all at once?

- Is it too powerful when compared to other weapon types?

- Are there too few ways of having counter tactics to laser vomit?

- Are there tactical situations where it is considered to be too advantageous?

In fact, I'm going to add these questions to the original post.

Edited by Livaria, 17 May 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[Excalibaard]

Energy rebalance =/= Energy Damage nerf.

I mostly want the Clan LPL to have reduced range, leaving more space for the ERLL and making it more similar to IS LPL. Damage is pretty decent, due to the longer duration it's not going to be as focused as some IS pulse laser builds. When vomiting with multiple mechs that matters less, but then their team is at a huge heat disadvantage. Flamers have been pretty effective for me lately due to everyone running hotter.

Edited by Excalibaard, 18 May 2017 - 05:47 AM.

[Livaria]

Excalibaard, on 18 May 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Energy rebalance =/= Energy Damage nerf.

I mostly want the Clan LPL to have reduced range, leaving more space for the ERLL and making it more similar to IS LPL. Damage is pretty decent, due to the longer duration it's not going to be as focused as some IS pulse laser builds. When vomiting with multiple mechs that matters less, but then their team is at a huge heat disadvantage. Flamers have been pretty effective for me lately due to everyone running hotter.

What about fighting from a distance? Flamers would be out of the question then. Clearly the Clans would have a significant advantage against the larger and slower mechs when fighting from a distance. Slower torso twisting and cover is a less valuable option for those kinds of 'mechs.

Why? Because if a mech torso twists, they have to re-align a shot. By the time a shot is re-aligned. The mech is back into cover. They dealt no damage, and received a lot.

Their best option is to return fire most of the time, and in that one instance where shots are being traded. Clans will deal more damage in one location. Heat and duration may not even matter as much either, having extra heat usually means is that a clan player will have to hide in cover for a longer period of time.

Edited by Livaria, 19 May 2017 - 02:19 AM.

[Humpday]

Err have you seen the MAD IIC with the friggin 2 cLPLs and 7 cMLs with 25 heatsinks? That thing is absurd. Thats a 75 point alpha at 400m away, full damage. Thats nuts, now add the fact that it dissipates heat stupidly fast + skill tree quirking and that mech is OP AF.

I'm not sure how to balance that out, but man, nothing, i mean nothing on the IS side can come anywhere near that damage potential and heat dissipation rate, at that range.

I'll leave that to you forum experts...

Edited by Humpday, 31 May 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[Trenchbird]

Except for when I get LOLalpha'd by a MAD-IIC, I tend to find lasers to be more of an annoyance anyways, regardless of tech base.

Let 'em be.

[Livaria]

Catten Hart. Do you usually play a light/medium mech? If lasers are only a mere annoyance then I'll have you know that mobility is probably the best defense against them.

Edited by Livaria, 04 June 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Arugela]

The only reason anyone would consider any laser vomit powerful is because they do not twist and spread the damage around correctly and know how to mitigate damage. Lasers are the weakest damage type to defensive twisting... It is always going to hurt if you just stand their and let them put lasers into a single portion of the mech. If you don't then you will not have as much of a problem because everything else is more heat efficient and you can outdo the enemy...

Lasers worst enemy are time and heat... Time because you have less of it until you overheat. Everything is better than lasers.

as to the considerations...


Lasers never do damage at once. That is their weakness.

And laser are a weakness. They are forced on builds because of their time to fire as it gives the enemy a chance to return fire without being able to wiggle and spread damage without sacrificing his own said damage.(you should still use them though as they help get proper volley damage and multiple firing times and more damage than otherwise.)

If you are having problems with lasers you are the problem...

And flamers are not a counter to lasers. They are a gap filler. Making the enemy not hit any one spot on the tank and getting to structure(movement and wiggling/twisting to spread damage) are the counters to lasers.

And, BTW, every mech can twist and has tanking capabilities. Every mech should always this as a general priority to fireing the weapons. What people stupidly do is fire, wait for the next shots, and fire again. They should be actively maneuvering and tanking and considering other things in the match. Then fire when appropriate. This allow more intelligent play and fireing between enemy fire and groupwork. It also keeps you a live longer to fire back. Firing should be the thing you do as a result of the other things. Not your main focus... focus on defense and strategy before weapons fire. One is made to serve the other. A well timed/coordinated shot is better than an endless spam. It also tends to relieve heating issues.

Edited by Arugela, 04 June 2017 - 10:00 AM.

[Livaria]

Yes, that is true. But I've already discussed the flaws of torso twisting. It's best used when brawling. It's much less of an effective tactic when fighting from a distance; which Clan lasers are very good at.

The fact is, players can't torso twist forever, they have to sacrifice their ability to fire back. Reacquiring a target is much more difficult when an enemy mech is not within brawling distance. Clan Medium and large lasers have enough range on them to make target re-acquisition very difficult. And as such it could be seen as imbalanced against assault and some heavies.

Edited by Livaria, 04 June 2017 - 10:01 AM.

[Arugela]

There is something people miss about torso twisting. You do not have to twist all the way to the arms. Each mech as twising/spreading tactics appropriate to the mech. There are other ways to twist like frontal twisting where you simply twist a little in each direction ans spread along frontal armor pieces. This form reduces return fire. This is what I mean by people now knowing how to. There are several forms and each mech is designed to use the type specific to it's characteristics. many with unique forms of doing it.

And no, you specifically want to torso twist at a distance. It's more affective. Mechs with long rangeed weapons setups often have conic noses. This is for frontal torso twisting. In fact most connic nosed mechs are designed for front facing twisting as they cannot move fast enough to get their arms to the side. IN fact the arms will be killed fast and you want to specifically avoid doing this unless a mech is designed to do both like the awesome.

The most effective tanking method for each mech is designed around their yaw speed and other characteristics. It always lets you return fire. And specifically designed for them to get shots in between other mech firing pauses. That is why they all have different geometry.

FYI, frontal tanking/twisting is designed to limit the time to get crosshairs back on the enemy after tanking. Many mechs are designed for this type like the Direwolf and Supernova. It is very common on mechs with slow yaw speed or the potential for heavy weapons in the arms.

Edited by Arugela, 04 June 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Excalibaard]

Not damage reduction, I want a Range reduction on the c-LPL and a Duration increase on the IS LPL.

[Arugela]

Why would you want a range reduction in the LPL. It already had one and is very short range..

[Livaria]

What about the current skill tree? Any player can reduce laser duration now. All clan laser boats may as well, have a 15% less duration. What are your guy's thoughts on that? Whatever the case, this may call for some actual testing to be done in-game.

Edited by Livaria, 10 June 2017 - 11:06 PM.

[Kaptain]

How did the clan small pulse laser not make your list. The damn thing does double its BT spec damage.

See the link in my sig for what I would like to see happen.

Edited by Kaptain, 11 June 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Livaria]

Primarily because pulse lasers have to maintain their ability to deal more damage over their standard laser counterpart. And this is mostly because of their heavier weight. If the entire function of pulse lasers were to be changed, however, I will gladly include it in the topic.

Meanwhile, I will take some time to think about the topic you've suggested.

Edited by Livaria, 11 June 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[Elizander]

I'm not really sure. Would the ER Medium Lasers for IS have 6 damage and 5 or less heat? Will the IS ER Small Laser be upgraded to higher damage? Is it gonna be ****** 3 heat for 3 damage? Are the IS UACs going to be single shells or like clans?

I won't compare things to a vacuum. I think that Clan lasers are okay pending the results of what the IS get in the tech upgrade. If PGI is gonna balance these I prefer it be done after new tech, not before.

[Excalibaard]

Arugela, on 08 June 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Why would you want a range reduction in the LPL. It already had one and is very short range..

On the clan LPL. Reading is hard.

[The Basilisk]

Livaria, on 19 March 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

I'm asking this question because there's still a fairly straightforward fix. Believe it or not; Clan lasers aren't originally supposed to be dealing the amount of damage that they do now. If PGI wanted too; they could literally reduce the damage by 1 for the following lasers, and MWO would be slightly more closer to the lore abiding spectrum.

Here's a list of clan lasers that is likely able to have reduced damage:

- C-ER Large Laser

- C-Large Pulse Laser

- C-ER Medium Laser

- C-Medium Pulse Laser

That's pretty much the whole story. I just thought you should know since people have been complaining about laser vomit in the past. But they seemed to have forgotten about this important detail. Personally, I don't have strong feelings either way. This just seems like a remarkably good solution.

EDIT:

Here is a list of questions for you to consider when voting and commenting on laser vomit...

- Does it cause too much damage all at once?

- Is too powerful when comparing to other playstyles?

- Are there too few ways towards countering laser vomit?

- Are there tactical situations where it is considered to be too advantageous?

Laser vomit in general is something that shouldn't be in game and is caused by the shooterlike transition/implementation of the weapons in MWO.

In short...Lasers are to easy to use when compared with other weapons.

It's not the damage or the heat or the dps...it is simply the point and click style the weapon works.

Mechweapons shouldn't work like that. There should be some kind of focusing or target aquisition process befor beeing able to fire. (such mechanics have been tryed to implement but the twitch shooter crowd yowled so heartwrenchingly that the devs insta scraped the idea)

Edited by The Basilisk, 14 June 2017 - 05:26 AM.

[Livaria]

The Basilisk, on 14 June 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Laser vomit in general is something that shouldn't be in game and is caused by the shooterlike transition/implementation of the weapons in MWO.

In short...Lasers are to easy to use when compared with other weapons.

It's not the damage or the heat or the dps...it is simply the point and click style the weapon works.

Mechweapons shouldn't work like that. There should be some kind of focusing or target aquisition process befor beeing able to fire. (such mechanics have been tryed to implement but the twitch shooter crowd yowled so heartwrenchingly that the devs insta scraped the idea)

Are you going to use the same reasoning for LRMS and Streak SRMS which are also in the game? Those are arguably even easier to use, even if LRM's can be considered unreliable at times it doesn't take much to use them to at their best damage potential. My point is that other weapons can be thought of as easy to use. Especially if they are short-ranged like an AC/20.

I think it's worth considering the effectiveness of a weapon, things like damage, heat and whatever else. Those things are important after all.

Edited by Livaria, 14 June 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[Kaptain]

I got most of what I want in the upcoming patch notes.

A reduction of clan small pulse laser damage.
A reduction of heat on IS medium lasers
Both clan and IS LPS have a damage reduction.

Good stuff.