49 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

I've worked up a table of battltech laser heat and range and I think damage values and compared them to MWO.


https://docs.google....gPZg/edit#gid=0

this compares lore values (As posted by Sarna.net) to posted values of MWO last time I played (pre-civil war)

so i have not added the current micro and heavy lasers to the MWO Field.

Edited by KursedVixen, 20 July 2017 - 12:49 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

KursedVixen, on 20 July 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

I've worked up a table of battltech laser heat and range and I think damage values and compared them to MWO.


https://docs.google....gPZg/edit#gid=0

this compares lore values (As posted by Sarna.net) to posted values of MWO last time I played (pre-civil war)

so i have not added the current micro and heavy lasers to the MWO Field.

Oh are you sure the sheet is finished... i have serious issues in understanding or finding the "comparison"

I also don't understand the goal of your comparison.

TT Values suck in a FPS - and the reason is simple
in TT 2 weapons of a kind behave like two weapons . in MWO they start to become one. So 2 Medium Laser in TT are 2 Medium Laser each with 5 damage in MWO its a single laser with 10damage.... this is imbalance at its finest.

So to the OP yes I think any vomit of any kind is completely off balance

[The Basilisk]

Yea the old prejudice that MWOs TT heritage is what effs up the balancing.

Actually its just the other way round as has been shown over and over again.
If they just had implemented the same balancing as TT very little would be wrong.

Only problem is that most shooter crowdies are completely unable to grasp the very simple fact that both the computer game as well as the board game are balanced around the same two factors:

-- 1st damage and heat output versus time. (in TT dmg/10second intervals...if that had been implemented correctly no inflationary armor quirks and doubled armor and structure would be nessecary...some weapons in mwo do even more than 10times their dps than in TT completely distorting their function and place in game.)

-- 2nd required tonnage and space versus weapon performance.
This has been translated pretty exactly...lowering the use and power of mainweapon builds and overpowering boating strategies since smal weapons got their dps multiple times more increased than big weapons, WHEN THEY ARE BOATED.

f.e. 2 rating lbx and ACs would have a max dps of 2.78 in MWO in TT they had a dps of 0.2.
An LB20X or AC 20 has a dps of 5 in MWO and 2 in TT....thats a harsh difference isn't it ?

If you now take all the smal weapons you can fire at once and compare this to the large weapons of the same family the differences go completely off the board because the balancing between large and smal weapon is completely lost in the horrible misstranslation from TT to MWO.

Edited by The Basilisk, 29 August 2017 - 05:58 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

DoT would be a start - but it would not change that two medium laser fired in unison would deal more damage than they should.
the burn duration obfuscate this but because the large laser uses the same burn duration the argument stays valid.

btw - why have those lasors so horrendous long burn durations? Because they are newb weapons and should be dropped by more advanced players?

[The Basilisk]

Karl Streiger, on 29 August 2017 - 06:04 AM, said:

DoT would be a start - but it would not change that two medium laser fired in unison would deal more damage than they should.
the burn duration obfuscate this but because the large laser uses the same burn duration the argument stays valid.

btw - why have those lasors so horrendous long burn durations? Because they are newb weapons and should be dropped by more advanced players?

Its like in so many other games that suffer from low population that newb mechanics get abused by minmax abusing metagamers.
This isn't realy fault of the players it is a simple fact.

Normaly you would put new players in an environment where they are slowly accustomed to the games mechanics. No need for easymode mechanics that always work. LRMs f.e. at first they seem op to new players. Later on they are circumstancial at best.

Lasers do not have this skilllevel degradation. In contrary due to meta game knowledge about how many can be fired at once, how burntimes and ranges mix best they get from "always be able to do at least a little thing" to most effective weaponsystem possible.

There needs to be some mechanic that makes Lasers more circumstantial.
Targeting and focusing behavior would be a possibility.
The more lasers you boat the longer the sync duration.
Skilled sensor/counter sensor nodes could serve as soft counter to lasers, as radardep and AMS skills do to counter LURMs.

Edited by The Basilisk, 29 August 2017 - 08:57 AM.

[Bigbacon]

load up like 6 or 7 CMPLs on a timber and yolo bomb and see how powerful it is. you can pull off 300+ dmg before you get melted for not even trying.

[Livaria]

Well, I'm back. And I didn't quite plan for this topic to still be relevant today. So I might update the poll to be a bit more recent with the new laser classes... I'll think about it. But it seems that the original set of clan lasers is still the most talked about.

Edited by Livaria, 30 September 2017 - 08:31 PM.

[Gasoline]

Well to be honest, it's not the damage that's the real problem. The true problem of MWO dates back to the closed beta. This story might get a little longer, but bear with me.

In Battletech every mech has a fixed maximum heat of 20. Every heatsink added didn't actually increase the heat cap, but the heat dissipation. So you could fire more frequently, but not more at the same time.

Short disclaimer: I don't want to translate the Battletech heat system to MWO, because that would benefit clans as well as lore wise their weapons were just lighter and more powerful with the same heat.

Now MWO. In MWO every mech has a base heat threshold of 30! The hardwired engine heatsinks count as true heatsinks, so DHS count twice. So 10 DHS in the engine increase the threshold to 50 already!.

I'll compare two different energy based loadouts here. The SNV-1 with 6 ER Large Lasers and the Battlemaster 1G with 3 Large Pulse Lasers and 3 ER Medium Lasers.

SNV:
6 cERLL, cXL 325, standard armor, standard structure, 10 internal engine DHS, 20 external DHS. Maximum heat threshold of 80(!), heat dissipation of 5 per second.

BLR:
3 LPL, 3 ERML, LFE 350, standard armor, endo-steel structure, 10 internal engine DHS, 10 external DHS. Maximum heat threshold of 65, heat dissipation of 3.5 per second.

Now if you add the "fixed" heat containment nodes, that gets even more stupid. The SNV with full heat containment has a heat threshold of 92. The BLR would've 74,75. So the fix has even more benefit for clan tech.

The ever so popular meta Hellbringer is even more ridiculous. Max. heat capacity of 72.5, with heat containment 83.375 and no ghost heat. Take a look back at the 20t heavier BLR. Even with a smaller engine and less heavy weapons, you just cannot fit any more heatsinks.

It's never been the damage that is the problem. It's the heat threshold. Clan mechs can carry so many freaking heat sinks and can alpha strike all day long while totally ignoring ghost heat.

Solution? Difficult at best...

Might evaluate a slightly nerfed version of the Double-Strength Heat Sinks. Those are basically upgraded SHS with the efficiency of DHS but no drawback.

Maybe lower the maximum heat threshold for clans?

I think a whole revamp of the current heat system is in order. With the Nova Cat hitting this month I fear the laser vomit is only getting worse.

Edited by Gasoline, 05 October 2017 - 10:38 PM.

[General Solo]

Laser vomits ok but not so powerfull dat I feel I need to use it to have a chance.
Laser Vomit, ballistics, missiles,ppc are all seen on the field, so seems balanced to me.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 06 October 2017 - 01:00 AM.

[Liveish]

If you can pin point aim a high % of your beam - YES

If you can not - NO