230 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 March 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

You have blatantly ignored counter arguments by covering your ears and saying "la la la la SRM4s better pound for pound than aSRM6s"

Not impossible that i missed them if there was any. All i saw was your "nope, wrong, gitgud". But im happy you're trying this time because otherwise whats the point? You really come here for "nope gitgud"? Neither do i.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 March 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

ASRM6 spread: 2.97
SRM4 spread (pre nerf): 3.5

I agreed to this already. I don't know how this translated(it's in the past now) in to the game but i still have mechs, one loading srm4 and one asrm6 and ive always done better and been more accurate with srm4. The only thing worth nothing about my srm use is that i never use them on the clan side and i almost never play heavies(beside this league) and ive avoided noob rides like oxide or the iic. But i use them on my other lights, meds and assault. I came to the same conclusion on all pof them, unless im starving for hardpoint im not gona use asrm6 and much less srm6.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 March 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Crit space is a situational issue. Its an issue for lights trying to squeeze every last ounce and getting FF.

Crit space is an issue on all mech and it's exacerbated by hardpoint count and placement ie CT and Head.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 March 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Mediums can go slower, drop FF and bring aSRM6s if they want to for more up front damage/poke or go with aSRM4s for more DPS and even tighter spread.

I have a few low hardpoint medium with asrm6 because i need to extra missile and the count is already low enough to not counter the spread accuracy by just adding more to the side.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 March 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Worse cooldown, yep. Sometimes though, the front loaded splat is more valuable than continued DPS which makes your more susceptible to incoming fire. Its a tradeoff. Weighing the advantages and disadvantages, in the past it made std SRM4s viable options for lights that want the speed and DPS more than the enhanced precision or big alpha poke. I personally have found quad packs of aSRM4s or aSRM6s to be the way to go for larger mediums that prefer the precision. Massed SRM4s are borderline gimmicky, with ghost heat and all, and the fact that that many launchers just creates a lot of heat by themselves.

That front loaded splat bleed to the outside components like arms or the ground. Its scary and nicer for the scoreboard but not in anways a better tradeoff for me.

Ill take the option for another alpha one second sooner or take that second to cool off rather than splat more missile on the sides. Unless you have low count launcher or fight dires all day long a lot of those extra missiles afforded by the sixes are gona miss anyways. Mech that can boat large numbers of srm4 can inturn afford the heat.

You realise how ridiculous it is that we have to compare plain srm4 to Artemis'd Srm6? A Launcher that is twice as heavy, requires half as much critspace with a cooldown that puts you into defensive mode for one second longer, an eternity in a turning fight and for what? for half more missile that gets to spread more the more you add. Mech that can boat asrm6 should be clear winner versus a plain srm4, not this 4 point more damage for all that drawback.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 March 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

I'm not really a fan of this change, now I simply won't ever use SRM4s without artemis just like SRM6s except in very niche cases (kiss-of-death Jenner IIC).

I will try them first but it's fine if theres better choice than plain srm4 on more mech. Im more favorable to balance things by first lowering things rather than buffing everything. We got too much powercreep over the years. It;s fun for a while but balance change need to happen and ill take nerf in most cases and see how it goes, tweak it after.

Edited by DAYLEET, 22 March 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 22 March 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

We got too much powercreep over the years.

Because SRMs were just so dominant.......

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 March 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because SRMs were just so dominant.......

because srm4 was dominant over all the other srm, including artemis'd, yes.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 22 March 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

because srm4 was dominant over all the other srm, including artemis'd, yes.

Says you?

Comp has not reflected that position at all. SRM4s are used yes... but not as overwhelmingly as ASRM6s in usage.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 March 2017 - 12:55 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Says you?

Comp has not reflected that position at all. SRM4s are used yes... but not as overwhelmingly as ASRM6s in usage.

so because the 1% of the population, who only tend toward the top 1% of weapons, etc... says so, the other 99% is held hostage to that?

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 March 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

so because the 1% of the population, who only tend toward the top 1% of weapons, etc... says so, the other 99% is held hostage to that?

In this instance, noone is a hostage except for only PGI themselves.

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Says you?

Comp has not reflected that position at all. SRM4s are used yes... but not as overwhelmingly as ASRM6s in usage.

Lets ask PGI then Surely they have stats about weapon usage, you have a twitter account? What "comp" use srm at all beside the jr7iic? Competition is a closed environment with different need for the player than the quick play where most everyone reside.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 22 March 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Lets ask PGI then Surely they have stats about weapon usage, you have a twitter account? What "comp" use srm at all beside the jr7iic? Competition is a closed environment with different need for the player than the quick play where most everyone reside.

There's a Griffin-3M that's still popular (and the 2N option).

The thing about PGI and telemetry is that they don't know how to interpret it. That's why already underpowered things like the Scat got nerfed some months ago... because "reasons".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 22 March 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

What "comp" use srm at all beside the jr7iic?

Griffin (2N, 3M), Atlas (AS7-S, AS7-D-DC), Oxide (pre-removal from validity), Summoner, Timber Wolf, Hunchback (4SP).

Those are off the top of my head.

DAYLEET, on 22 March 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

because srm4 was dominant over all the other srm, including artemis'd, yes.

Maybe among the larger population, but that doesn't mean it is better (how many months was laser vomit unduly punished using this rationale?). Then there is the problem of making isolated changes without adjusting things for the larger picture (if SRM4s were strong but SRMs as a whole were not, then you can't just nerf SRM4s).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 March 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 March 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Maybe among the larger population, but that doesn't mean it is better (how many months was laser vomit unduly punished using this rationale?). Then there is the problem of making isolated changes without adjusting things for the larger picture (if SRM4s were strong but SRMs as a whole were not, then you can't just nerf SRM4s).

People are still asking for laservomit nerfs when that isn't even the prevailing meta.

The only time it gets really mentioned is in FW, but that's primarily due in part that having energy weapons tends to allow people to stick around longer (assuming they are good enough at using terrain and/or surviving). It's just context that people really seem to not think beyond the obvious.

[Athom83]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Comp has not reflected that position at all. SRM4s are used yes... but not as overwhelmingly as ASRM6s in usage.

Again, why keep compairing 1 SRM4 with 1 aSRM6? 2 SRM 4 = 1 aSRM6. When going on that, 2 SRM4 pre-nerf was vastly more desirable than the aSRM6 except in the cases of limited hardpoints or big mechs with lots of missile points (Atlas, Archer, that one King Crab, Catapult, etc). If I could find the values as in the game as they were, I can show you how the pre-nerf SRM4 spread values were not a step to halfway between SRM2s and SRM6s, but were a step 1/4-1/3 the way between making them the superior choice.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Athom83, on 22 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Again, why keep compairing 1 SRM4 with 1 aSRM6? 2 SRM 4 = 1 aSRM6. When going on that, 2 SRM4 pre-nerf was vastly more desirable than the aSRM6

Again, who says it was vastly more desirable? One was more accurate and heat efficient (aSRM6), the other did more damage and had a faster recycle (2 SRM4). It also isn't just limited hardpoints, but the spread of hardpoints (since aSRM6s will be more concentrated in the case of spread out hardpoints).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 March 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

There's a Griffin-3M that's still popular (and the 2N option).

The thing about PGI and telemetry is that they don't know how to interpret it. That's why already underpowered things like the Scat got nerfed some months ago... because "reasons".

Remove the ecm from the 2N and i dunno if it would have got air time in world championship. Some meta build exist to fill a role(hole even) in a strict and static environment and maybe the 2N is that mech. Not because they are the best all around. Comp have a reason to use their mech with the laodout they have in relation to the other mech in the team and what is expected from the other team. Thats another issue unrelated to general balance. Never see the 3m anywhere beside me once every six month.

Also, i never said asrm6 was bad, i said srm4 was better for the weight, crit space and dps ratio. What comp do really doesnt matter. Their limitation is something we are free off in quick play. Some meta build exist because they are superior and others simply easier to use. Thats another separate subject but a very interesting one that isnt really discussed :/ We could go philosophical on comp play versus fun play lol.

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

People are still asking for laservomit nerfs when that isn't even the prevailing meta.

The only time it gets really mentioned is in FW, but that's primarily due in part that having energy weapons tends to allow people to stick around longer (assuming they are good enough at using terrain and/or surviving). It's just context that people really seem to not think beyond the obvious.

Meta isnt the only metric. Sometimes a meta is enabled by something exterior to weaponry, like the poptart era, they nerfed weapons but really the problem was the easy of jumping and still be accurate.

Edited by DAYLEET, 22 March 2017 - 01:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

DAYLEET, on 22 March 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Remove the ecm from the 2N and i dunno if it would have got air time in world championship. Some meta build exist to fill a role(hole even) in a strict and static environment and maybe the 2N is that mech. Not because they are the best all around. Comp have a reason to use their mech with the laodout they have in relation to the other mech in the team and what is expected from the other team. Thats another issue unrelated to general balance. Never see the 3m anywhere beside me once every six month.

Also, i never said asrm6 was bad, i said srm4 was better for the weight, crit space and dps ratio. What comp do really doesnt matter. Their limitation is something we are free off in quick play. Some meta build exist because they are superior and others simply easier to use. Thats another separate subject but a very interesting one that isnt really discussed :/ We could go philosophical on comp play versus fun play lol.

I know some people need that ECM crutch with the 2N, but I need more in the realm of durability in the 3M. That's not really what's in debate though.

The SRM4 isn't really powerful enough on its own. Most consideration of just the SRM4 is totally contingent on tonnage availability (or lack thereof specifically) and it's less to do able meta than what you're thinking it is or should be.

That's why for those doing comp, this is more of a headscratcher since nothing with the SRM4 suggests it should be the goto SRM option when you have the hardpoints to do it.

[banana peel]

Athom83, on 22 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Again, why keep compairing 1 SRM4 with 1 aSRM6? 2 SRM 4 = 1 aSRM6.

I just expressed, why this comparison is incorrect in MWO. It's a pity, looks like i wasted my time involving myself into this thread.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

That's why for those doing comp, this is more of a headscratcher since nothing with the SRM4 suggests it should be the goto SRM option when you have the hardpoints to do it.

I had to explain to Mag why they nerfed SRM4s because he legitimately didn't understand why it was nerfed.

[DAYLEET]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

People are still asking for laservomit nerfs when that isn't even the prevailing meta.

The only time it gets really mentioned is in FW, but that's primarily due in part that having energy weapons tends to allow people to stick around longer (assuming they are good enough at using terrain and/or surviving). It's just context that people really seem to not think beyond the obvious.

Man last time i played fw... Well i dont remember but good group who could sync lasers together were be immensely powerful. Its easier to boat lasers and they could wreck faces it wasnt even funny. Did it mean the weapon were op? ofc not. But did the game stay fun? Open for debate maybe but we know how popular fw is.

Back to SRMs. The Nerf are done anyways, we should focus on testing what we have now and be objective about it.

Edited by DAYLEET, 22 March 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 March 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

I had to explain to Mag why they nerfed SRM4s because he legitimately didn't understand why it was nerfed.

Isn't "because PGI" enough of an answer?

[Alistair Winter]

SRM4 should definitely be nerfed to make the SRM6 more viable.

They should also nerf the AC5 to make the AC2 more viable, nerf the LRM15 to make the LRM20 more viable, nerf IS medium lasers to make IS small lasers more viable, and pre-emptively nerf the standard MG to make the upcoming light MG more viable.

"Balance".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 22 March 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Isn't "because PGI" enough of an answer?

Well I ended up just using that.