230 replies to this topic

[Skoll]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 March 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

WTH are you guys even talking about "make SRM-2s great"? You'd first have to start with "make SRM-2s exist". I don't even see them on my mechlab right now. As far as I'm concerned, SRMs start at 4, soon to be 6 with the new nerfs.

Get a Commando 2D, load it with SSRM 2s and an ECM, and go have yourself a fun time. If you do it right, you'll usually be the last one alive ( depending on how bad your team is ). For maximum effect, go hide and shut down somewhere when that happens.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

without data, it's also relatively easy, even for competitive tier players, to have confirmation bias run rampant, too. That's why I prefer raw data, when available.

And then compare the totality of variables, RoF, Heat, Spread, etc, along with comparative tonnage and crits, number of hardpoints (which the last, number of hardpoints, is probably one of the biggest difficulties to measure, since what is "fine" with say...4 hardpoints, can be OP as hell, with oh...8-9, even with the lovely GH ... since so many builds are indeed built around dumping alphas and running, instead of sustainability of fire).

*shrugs* Call me old fashioned.

Could be OP as hell with 8-9 hardpoints, but it obviously isn't because no one cares about the Archer 5W.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 21 March 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Maybe non artemis 2's 4's and 6's could have longer range? 340 meters? Just a random number and idea. Thoughts?

I actually kind of like that thought.... though probably not quite that much extra range (although with module or skill nodes in the future, (such a misnomer, skill nodes causing mechanical differences.....). Even boosting to 300 meters would be a big jump, and make the artemis cost/weight a little more palatable. Huh. Something to think on.

[Weeny Machine]

The funny things is, this nerfs the Huginn once more

[Bishop Steiner]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 March 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

WTH are you guys even talking about "make SRM-2s great"? You'd first have to start with "make SRM-2s exist". I don't even see them on my mechlab right now. As far as I'm concerned, SRMs start at 4, soon to be 6 with the new nerfs.

thank you for making our point.

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Could be OP as hell with 8-9 hardpoints, but it obviously isn't because no one cares about the Archer 5W.

El Bandito?

But then, there is also that Hunstman fella, and at...7? harpoints, the Cyclops. They do exist.

[Skoll]

Bush Hopper, on 21 March 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

The funny things is, this nerfs the Huginn once more

RIP in Piss Huginn and Oxide.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

If they really wanted SRM2s to look good, they would lower the heat profile on them significantly. Which now that I think about it, they really should've brought down the heat on SRM4s with this nerf as a small bit of compensation (since I worry this may have been an overnerf).

The only time SRM2s are "relevant" are SRM Lolcusts with super quirks... because the tonnage isn't there, and SRM2s by default would be ineffective on their own in the first place. That's it.

If the MLX had Lolcust-level SRM quirks, you'd see more of them trolling, but they don't (and for other obvious reasons).

Skoll, on 21 March 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Certain mechs can rapid fire SSRM 2s with negligible heat and they're VERY fun in groups. I imagine the only thing that saves those particular gimmick builds is the disdain the playerbase at large has for them.

They aren't very good. When we didn't have Clans, the Kintaro-Streakboat wasn't still quite the threat that a Streakcrow was by any stretch of the imagination... and the Kintaro is probably going to still be irrelevant even if we introduce IS SSRM6s.

[Skoll]

Deathlike, on 21 March 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

They aren't very good. When we didn't have Clans, the Kintaro-Streakboat wasn't still quite the threat that a Streakcrow was by any stretch of the imagination... and the Kintaro is probably going to still be irrelevant even if we introduce IS SSRM6s.

You can be good and effective, or have fun with your friends in a bad game. Pick one.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

El Bandito?

But then, there is also that Hunstman fella, and at...7? harpoints, the Cyclops. They do exist.

Right, so nobody cares about the Archer 5W.

Huntsman will run 8 with artemis, and Cyclops will typically run artemis 6s. Mine is setup with 6 6s and one 4, with artemis.

Therefore, nonA SRm4s not OP when ran in droves.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Amsro, on 21 March 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Maybe non artemis 2's 4's and 6's could have longer range? 340 meters? Just a random number and idea. Thoughts?

Range doesn't really make sense given how they are more inaccurate (thus range is much less effective on them).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 21 March 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

The only time SRM2s are "relevant" are SRM Lolcusts with super quirks... because the tonnage isn't there, and SRM2s by default would be ineffective on their own in the first place. That's it.

Well it's also because you can't dump enough damage fast enough and they are extremely hot compared to SRM6s (50% more heat per damage than SRM6s, on top of faster firing). So making it actually potentially cooler (drop the heat by 50% to have better heat per damage) and drop the cooldown a bit more (1.5s at least).

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 21 March 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

The only time SRM2s are "relevant" are SRM Lolcusts with super quirks... because the tonnage isn't there, and SRM2s by default would be ineffective on their own in the first place. That's it.

If the MLX had Lolcust-level SRM quirks, you'd see more of them trolling, but they don't (and for other obvious reasons).





They aren't very good. When we didn't have Clans, the Kintaro-Streakboat wasn't still quite the threat that a Streakcrow was by any stretch of the imagination... and the Kintaro is probably going to still be irrelevant even if we introduce IS SSRM6s.

yes the "RNG by mech bone" thing, or whatever the hell it is they are using, kind of negates a lot of the potential effectiveness. Not sure why they couldn't just home on the spot targeted at launch, but have an inferior spread to their equivalent non streak launcher.

But it's patently asinine to have a SSRM2 fire, and have one missile hit the Atlas in it's big toe, and the second in it's eyebrow. Maybe the current method would be acceptable if the SSRM could still be deadfired like a normal SRM, also (cuz, seriously...4.5 tons for IS Streak6? With current mechanics, that's a non starter). (Which, IIRC correctly one could do in TT for the Angel ECM, despite it making no sense by the basic streak description... and they are supposed to be able to target Guardian as per normal already)

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Range doesn't really make sense given how they are more inaccurate (thus range is much less effective on them).

whoops, I read that backwards... I was thinking "Artemis meant more range".... which would make some sense. DOH!

[Amsro]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Range doesn't really make sense given how they are more inaccurate (thus range is much less effective on them).

Fair point, maybe non artemis should get a missile damage bonus then?

More damage per missile the smaller the launcher is? Thoughts?

[Gas Guzzler]

Amsro, on 21 March 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Fair point, maybe non artemis should get a missile damage bonus then?

More damage per missile the smaller the launcher is? Thoughts?

I mean, honestly I don't really think spending an extra ton and slot should come with a drawback.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

yes the "RNG by mech bone" thing, or whatever the hell it is they are using, kind of negates a lot of the potential effectiveness. Not sure why they couldn't just home on the spot targeted at launch, but have an inferior spread to their equivalent non streak launcher.

That's not really "skill" either, especially on a fire and forget platform. Considering that the MW4 version had more skill (something that is pretty foreign these days) in their version of Streaks, apparently copying something that wasn't broken/OP is Lostech.

MW4's version was that you had to get the lock AND direct the Streak to its target with your reticule (you have finer control over the Streak, but you give up torso twisting to get the missiles where you wanted to).

Quote

But it's patently asinine to have a SSRM2 fire, and have one missile hit the Atlas in it's big toe, and the second in it's eyebrow. Maybe the current method would be acceptable if the SSRM could still be deadfired like a normal SRM, also (cuz, seriously...4.5 tons for IS Streak6? With current mechanics, that's a non starter). (Which, IIRC correctly one could do in TT for the Angel ECM, despite it making no sense by the basic streak description... and they are supposed to be able to target Guardian as per normal already)


whoops, I read that backwards... I was thinking "Artemis meant more range".... which would make some sense. DOH!

SSRM deadfire was available in all the other games (it's not even that hard to magically code). It's just THIS game that doesn't want to allow that. Again, Lostech. Apparently we have to hold onto pointless TT mechanics (can't lose ammo if no missile hits is translated to "must have lock on target" before firing).

Edited by Deathlike, 21 March 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Ultimax]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 March 2017 - 05:32 AM, said:

To deserve a nerf? As an IS pilot, I only use SRM 4 if I can fit at least 6 of them, and even then only if I'm taking another weapon as a finisher. The whole point of them is that they're just tight enough to not make Artemis mandatory, but not so tight as to be able to finish off a mech with SRM 4s alone. I'd almost always take 4 x ASRM 6 over 6 x SRM 4 if I could afford the weight, since 6 x ASRM 4 is way too heavy, but on some mechs that extra weight Artemis tags on to the SRM 6 pack gimps your ammo stores, hence the SRM 4 sans Artemis option. So which mechs were so OP with non-Artemis SRM 4s that caused it to get the nerf bat? Why take SRM 4 over SRM 6 + Artemis now? The spread nerf was pretty significant, so it's questionable if I can even get all missiles on target, let alone in the general area I point them at.

Like at least half the things that get nerfed in this game, it's main crime was that it was used frequently because it was well designed - specifically well designed for tonnage restricted mechs who often can't afford artemis on what is already an expensive (tonnage wise) build direction (launchers + ammo).

It's also likely it came to their attention because of how popular it was on mechs that had quirks for it, this is more of PGI creating the problem and then nerfing something other than the thing they created.

[Amsro]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

I mean, honestly I don't really think spending an extra ton and slot should come with a drawback.

Sure that is true, but I'm just trying to find a reason to NOT NEED to take that extra ton and slot.

Some reason to use non-artemis other then not enough slot space.

Not much thought going into my posts, just random idea to get the brain tingling with ideas from all.

edit, trying to see if there is a simple way to buff the SRM2 while not over buffing the entire SRM line.

Edited by Amsro, 21 March 2017 - 08:20 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

Well it's also because you can't dump enough damage fast enough and they are extremely hot compared to SRM6s (50% more heat per damage than SRM6s, on top of faster firing). So making it actually potentially cooler (drop the heat by 50% to have better heat per damage) and drop the cooldown a bit more (1.5s at least).

really need to see linear improvement, tbh. I don't really like the different cooldowns as that is one thing that seems to get exploited too easily. Really is should be more a matter of tonnage. A SRM2 should simply be half as effective as an SRM4, and 1/3 as effective as an SRM6.

Maybe slightly fudged for the the smaller racks having slight edges in efficiency. But one issue with the smaller units having such superior cooldown IS the abuse of multi hardpoint designs "machine gunning" things.

So maybe a SRM2 should be 60% as effective as a SRM4, and 40% as effective as a SRM6 (again, since efficiency tends to have diminishing returns with size/quantity), Whereas with Artemis, an SRM2 would have 80% of the effectiveness of an SRm4, and 50-60% of an SRm6. I'd rather see that achieved thru spread and heat tradeoffs than cooldown.

Amsro, on 21 March 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Fair point, maybe non artemis should get a missile damage bonus then?

More damage per missile the smaller the launcher is? Thoughts?

Gotta agree with Gas on this... especially I mean.. think a Clan SRM2... half a ton.. but Artemis for it is still 1 ton? Wtf? Perhaps Artemis should be concerted to something like the TC, where one covers everything, but the bigger the unit, the more effective it is? Or again, scale it by size of the launcher?

IDK, Artemis was always poorly implemented in TT, also.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

A SRM2 should simply be half as effective as an SRM4, and 1/3 as effective as an SRM6.

Maybe slightly fudged for the the smaller racks having slight edges in efficiency. But one issue with the smaller units having such superior cooldown IS the abuse of multi hardpoint designs "machine gunning" things.

So maybe a SRM2 should be 60% as effective as a SRM4, and 40% as effective as a SRM6 (again, since efficiency tends to have diminishing returns with size/quantity), Whereas with Artemis, an SRM2 would have 80% of the effectiveness of an SRm4, and 50-60% of an SRm6. I'd rather see that achieved thru spread and heat tradeoffs than cooldown.

Problem then becomes about hardpoints since very few mechs have enough hardpoints to bother with SRM2s in the first place. This game is designed around limiting hardpoints such that weapons that NEED to be boated to be useful often just get ignored unless they have more power to offset that hardpoint requirement. Now if mechs just had more hardpoints all around (especially lights) that would make more sense but as it stands, if that were the case the SRM2 would really just not be useful.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 21 March 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Sure that is true, but I'm just trying to find a reason to NOT NEED to take that extra ton and slot.

Some reason to use non-artemis other then not enough slot space.

Not much thought going into my posts, just random idea to get the brain tingling with ideas from all.

edit, trying to see if there is a simple way to buff the SRM2 while not over buffing the entire SRM line.

the reason is... because you are saving that ton and crit, for every launcher. So you are sloppier, but capable of carrying more ammo or total firepower. That's it's own tradeoff.

What needs doing is standardizing the effectiveness of missiles racks, and of Artemis, so that the weapons are still effective without, but gain in effectiveness with it.