85 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 23 March 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

More importantly, will the IS LBX20 gonna be implemented with the cost of ELEVEN frigging slots? Cause that's just dumb as hell. The weapon is already weak enough, and at this rate it can't be equipped in the arms or even with LFE torsi.

PGI never changes critslots or tonnage on anything ever, so we can already bet on it being worthless.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 24 March 2017 - 03:09 AM, said:

PGI never changes critslots or tonnage on anything ever, so we can already bet on it being worthless.

Sent tweet to Russ already. Let's hope his brain is not equally worthless.

[Widowmaker1981]

IS UACs are kinda huge and really hard to boat, i honestly think the IS-UAC20 and UAC10 should fire single projectiles, for balance with the Clan versions being so much smaller and lighter. I mean the C-UAC10 is literally half the size (and 75% of the weight)

Maybe the IS-UAC20 should be two shells per trigger pull, but i think the 10 definitely needs to be single slug.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 March 2017 - 03:58 AM.

[Baulven]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 March 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

IS UACs are kinda huge and really hard to boat, i honestly think the IS-UAC20 and UAC10 should fire single projectiles, for balance with the Clan versions being so much smaller and lighter. I mean the C-UAC10 is literally half the size (and 75% of the weight)

Maybe the IS-UAC20 should be two shells per trigger pull, but i think the 10 definitely needs to be single slug.

Even with the extra size a single slug is probably far too problematic. Boating ballistics that you can nearly pinpoint for large amounts will be just like the KDK 3 except clans don't have structure bonuses to mitigate that sort of alpha. Two shells is far more survivable since you actually have a chance at spreading it. The 20 being pinpoint would be asking to reverse the KDK3 issue to being an IS side issue with any chassis that can boat the option. As it is the KDK3 needs to be toned down still, and we don't need to bring more things up to that power level creep plateau.

[Lehmund]

Personally, it always annoyed me that isAC's in general do single shots. Their rate of fire doesn't make them Autocannons at all. They are currently Semi-automatic slug throwers. cAC's working with bursts are not autocannons either, they are burst semi-automatics. UltraACs are even worse because they are burst semis that can jam. We're not playing tabletop here.

LbX weapons are shotguns and properly represented in the game IMO.

What I'd like to see for all ACs is multiple projectiles for all of them spread over the cooldown period i.e. instead of isAC 20 shooting a single 20 dmg slug every 4 secs or so, it should shoot say 10 x 2 dmg slugs over that duration as we press the fire button (and stop when we stop pressing). It gives the AC20 it's 5 dps. Basically, the AC20 qualifier just means to me that it delivers large slugs than the other sizes.

cAC20 would do exactly the same IMO.
cULTRAAC20 would be doing the same but with a higher rate, like 20 x 2 dmg slugs in 4 secs but with a chance of jamming (giving the same issue as the double tap, but you don't double-tap).

In comparison, other calibers like the cAC2 which currently delivers what 2 slugs every 0.72 secs (2.78 dps) would deliver then 11.12 damage every 4 secs. Let's say 11 dmg every 4 secs for this exercise. So it would say throw out 11 x 1 dmg slugs per sec. Smaller slugs.

Of course, instead of 10 or 11 slugs, it could be half that amount with more damage per slug. The point is, it should be a continuous stream of fire as they are autocannons.

To me, that would feel way more interesting and they would feel like autocannons finally.

As far as RACs coming out, those would dish out more slugs per second than ACs with the windup and wind down mechanic.

MWO is a game that sits between tabletop and video game right now. It is trying to use tabletop mechanics and translating some of them to non-turn-based video game.

PGI should move away from the tabletop rules. There is a Turn-based mechwarrior game coming out isn't there? Keep TT rules to that game and give us real time vid game mechanics!

Cabusha, on 24 March 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

I would guess that UAC5 and UAC2 will remain single projectile, with UAC10 being a two round burst and the UAC20 a three round burst. They're bigger and heavier than clan, so would get a slightly better damage grouping. Entirely unconfirmed of course.

[Reno Blade]

I guess it will be unlikely, but I would hope to have weapon rebalance also for the new AC variants.
Thinking about possible implementation of uACs and RACs was part of my 3060 tech balance post here: https://mwomercs.com...g-3060-weapons/
(also in the signature)

Quote

Changes:
B-1) All ACs fire in streams (LBX excluded)
B-2) UACs gain 1x extra projectile per volley instead of Double-Tap ability
B-3) Rotary ACs use more projectiles for a volley and increase the ROF over time

AC2 1+1 = 2dmg
AC5 1.66+1.66+1.66 = 5dmg
AC10 2+2+2+2+2 = 10dmg
AC20 4+4+4+4+4 = 20dmg

cUAC2 1+1 +1extra = 3dmg
cUAC5 1.66+1.66+1.66 +1.66extra = 6.66dmg
cUAC10 2+2+2+2+2 +2extra = 12dmg
cUAC20 4+4+4+4+4 +4extra = 24dmg

RAC2 0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5 cd/2
-> 0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5 cd/3
-> 0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5 cd/4
-> 0.5+0.5+0.5+0.5 cd/6
pausing the fire will slow down to standard cd again after 2x CD time

RAC5 1+1+1+1+1 cd/2
-> 1+1+1+1+1 cd/3
-> 1+1+1+1+1 cd/4
-> 1+1+1+1+1 cd/6
pausing the fire will slow down to standard cd again after 2x CD time


Gauss 2.5s cd, 2.0s charge, 2.0s charge hold
Light Gauss 2.0s cd, 1.5s charge, 1.5s charge hold
Heavy Gauss 3.0s cd, 2.5s charge, 2.5s charge hold

[Pyed]

Lehmund, on 24 March 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

Personally, it always annoyed me that isAC's in general do single shots. Their rate of fire doesn't make them Autocannons at all. They are currently Semi-automatic slug throwers. cAC's working with bursts are not autocannons either, they are burst semi-automatics. UltraACs are even worse because they are burst semis that can jam. We're not playing tabletop here.

What I'd like to see for all ACs is multiple projectiles for all of them spread over the cooldown period i.e. instead of isAC 20 shooting a single 20 dmg slug every 4 secs or so, it should shoot say 10 x 2 dmg slugs over that duration as we press the fire button (and stop when we stop pressing). It gives the AC20 it's 5 dps. Basically, the AC20 qualifier just means to me that it delivers large slugs than the other sizes.

The point is, it should be a continuous stream of fire as they are autocannons.

PGI should move away from the tabletop rules. There is a Turn-based mechwarrior game coming out isn't there? Keep TT rules to that game and give us real time vid game mechanics!

The logic isn't wrong, but the gameplay implications of this would be just be RIP autocannons except boating assaults who can handle the facetime.

People would just go moar lazors if autocannons have (basically) duration too.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lehmund, on 24 March 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

What I'd like to see for all ACs is multiple projectiles for all of them spread over the cooldown period i.e. instead of isAC 20 shooting a single 20 dmg slug every 4 secs or so, it should shoot say 10 x 2 dmg slugs over that duration as we press the fire button (and stop when we stop pressing). It gives the AC20 it's 5 dps. Basically, the AC20 qualifier just means to me that it delivers large slugs than the other sizes.

That would turn the AC20 into an AC2 that weighs 2.5 as much, takes up 10 times the space and has 1/4 the range. Please explain how you think that might be a good idea?

I understand your logic, but it would completely ruin large caliber ACs, because standing around facetanking things isnt really a good idea most of the time.

[Stonefalcon]

Xetelian, on 23 March 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

If it does everyone will switch to using it over KDK-3. suddenly the ANH will be the go to mech.

FTFY

[Athom83]

Lehmund, on 24 March 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

Personally, it always annoyed me that isAC's in general do single shots. Their rate of fire doesn't make them Autocannons at all.

Lol. Seems like someone doesn't know what an autocannon is. An autocannon is a large, fully automatic projectile weapon system that fires shells instead of bullets. While its true they are generally "rapid fire", there are those with slower rates of fire. However, the AC as in AutoCannon may be a misnomer, and should be AC as in AutoloadingCannon.

Wikipedia said:

An autocannon or automatic cannon is a large, fully automatic, rapid-fire projectile weapon that fires armour-piercing or explosive shells, as opposed to the bullet fired by a machine gun.

Quote

An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist.

Edited by Athom83, 24 March 2017 - 06:39 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarogato, on 24 March 2017 - 02:55 AM, said:

Don't forgot, the cACs are not real weapons. They don't exist; they're not supposed to exist.

People need to stop saying this because it doesn't quite make sense.

For example if ATMs were separated into 3 different weapon classes like they were in mektek's mod of MW4. Would the ATMHE not be a real weapon? I don't think so, it is an ATM with only HE ammo, just like the cACs are cLBX with only slug ammo. Who cares about what PGI actually called it, they just wanted the difference to be easily known.

Placeholder, yes.
Made up (like Railguns from MC1 and mekteks mod), no.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 March 2017 - 06:52 AM.

[Graugger]

Figure with IS ACs you miss you just lost all of your damage potential... Not so with Clan Acs, you can still adjust mid fire for sudden direction changes to get some damage on the target...

Oh well with all the whining I guess they may as well force the IS ACs to shoot twice as many shells as the Clan ACs to do the same damage.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 23 March 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

More importantly, will the IS LBX20 gonna be implemented with the cost of ELEVEN frigging slots? Cause that's just dumb as hell. The weapon is already weak enough, and at this rate it can't be equipped in the arms or even with LFE torsi.

The is LB-2 takes up an additional 300% more crit space, for an ability it will not have in MWO, the ability to have dual fire modes... The AC/2 is 1 crit space, the LB-2X is 4! The LB-5 takes up more crit space for the ability to dual fire, that it is not going to have in MWO...

IS LB's are so boned, if PGI doesn't do something about crit space requirements for these weapons, even if it steeps away from TT...

As for IS UAC/s I'm very interested to see what PGI will do, as they is precedent for them to go either way on it...

[Metus regem]

Lehmund, on 24 March 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

LbX weapons are shotguns and properly represented in the game IMO.

Yes and no... they are in some publications called "mech shot guns", but when you get into the nuts and bolts of how they are described as working, they are most diffidently not shot guns.

The work more along the lines of a Flak round, as in until they reach a point predetermined by the targeting software they are a solid canister, at a set point it bursts into sub munitions pelting the target.

LB's should be working more like this:

[Pyed]

Metus regem, on 24 March 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

LBX nomenclature

K.
I'll just leave this here.

[Tordin]

Cabusha, on 24 March 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

I would guess that UAC5 and UAC2 will remain single projectile, with UAC10 being a two round burst and the UAC20 a three round burst. They're bigger and heavier than clan, so would get a slightly better damage grouping. Entirely unconfirmed of course.

I do hope PGI will make IS UACS 2, 10 and 20 fire like the UAC 5. Single slug. Let the clans have the burst uacs. Even if its in lore that ac, uacs whatever fire in bursts even on the IS tech side. In-game It makes sense to make the difference so that IS get single slugs, clan burst fire for their autocannons. Just to make it cleaner to differenciate between the two tech sides.

And yes PGI needs serious help to figure out ammo switching soon, so that lorists and such can rest their shoulders. Also for gameplay reasons. Clan ATM should be next on the list after the Clan AC get ammo switching capabilities.

[Widowmaker1981]

Graugger, on 24 March 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Figure with IS ACs you miss you just lost all of your damage potential... Not so with Clan Acs, you can still adjust mid fire for sudden direction changes to get some damage on the target...

Are you seriously trying to claim that burst fire is a GOOD thing? I guess youll be saying that long laser durations are good too, because more time to correct aim?

[CDLord HHGD]

It better shoot 1 20-shot.....

[Snowbluff]

Metus regem, on 24 March 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

Yes and no... they are in some publications called "mech shot guns", but when you get into the nuts and bolts of how they are described as working, they are most diffidently not shot guns.

The work more along the lines of a Flak round, as in until they reach a point predetermined by the targeting software they are a solid canister, at a set point it bursts into sub munitions pelting the target.

LB's should be working more like this:

Kind of like a mech sized M25? Computerized munitions with set detonation ranges? I might go as far as to say a LB series autocannon would have shells that use IR imaging to determine the optimal detonation range independently.

[Jackal Noble]

El Bandito, on 23 March 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

Which is why CUACs got the nerfbat. Again, we should compare CACs to IS ACs and see why they shoot in burst.

Ya and ISACs, despite the extra 2 tons and slots, are better hands down. Cooldoown quirks and ballistic velocity quirks like tune of what 40% on the roflman don't hurt either. When paired together they are better.