271 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

Dee Eight, on 26 March 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

The LRM5 spread change hasn't decreased the effectiveness. My ARC-5W just got a 4 kill 7 assist 707 damage 9 components destroyed polar domination win chain firing its 5 LRM5s. Didn't even need to expend any of the SRM ammo.

It hasn't increased it either. It is the worst way to run lrms because it relies too heavily on DPS which is easy to avoid with lurms.

[Dee Eight]

MacClearly, on 26 March 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

It hasn't increased it either. It is the worst way to run lrms because it relies too heavily on DPS which is easy to avoid with lurms.

you lurm your way, i'll lurm my way, and let's just leave it at that.

[MacClearly]

Dee Eight, on 26 March 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

you lurm your way, i'll lurm my way, and let's just leave it at that.

I guess you enjoy it. Just frustrating to see so many people doing it thinking it is a good build.

[SQW]

MacClearly, on 26 March 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

I guess you enjoy it. Just frustrating to see so many people doing it thinking it is a good build.

I don't think in a normal game, even on Polar, his LRM5 boat will get anywhere near that score. Some people are just really bad at dealing with LRMs.

If LRM is consistently killing you, then get AMS and boost module along with radar dep or even ECM. If people can't handle shakes, get the stability module. Most people just cram every tonnage full of offensive gear because they see how some good players roll without knowing how to actively protect themselves. When they inevitably die to a hailstorm of LRMs while walking the open, they blame LRMs for doing what LRMs do best.

Also, it's a team game. The best player wouldn't survive if he gets flanked and radar locked (goes both ways). Be credit to team! Lastly, if your team is full of Catapult, MDD and STKs, don't play the match like your team is full of KDK-3s. Adapt and use your team asset to the best of its ability instead of dying like a one-trick-meta-pony and then blame your team for lack of brawling ability.

[MacClearly]

SQW, on 26 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

I don't think in a normal game, even on Polar, his LRM5 boat will get anywhere near that score. Some people are just really bad at dealing with LRMs.

If LRM is consistently killing you, then get AMS and boost module along with radar dep or even ECM. If people can't handle shakes, get the stability module. Most people just cram every tonnage full of offensive gear because they see how some good players roll without knowing how to actively protect themselves. When they inevitably die to a hailstorm of LRMs while walking the open, they blame LRMs for doing what LRMs do best.

Also, it's a team game. The best player wouldn't survive if he gets flanked and radar locked (goes both ways). Be credit to team! Lastly, if your team is full of Catapult, MDD and STKs, don't play the match like your team is full of KDK-3s. Adapt and use your team asset to the best of its ability instead of dying like a one-trick-meta-pony and then blame your team for lack of brawling ability.

?....

I said it was a bad build. Dying to lurms should be rare except for someone very new or if you are the last alive and can't avoid it.

[SQW]

MacClearly, on 26 March 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

?....

I said it was a bad build. Dying to lurms should be rare except for someone very new or if you are the last alive and can't avoid it.

Sorry, I was too lazy to split my post. Only the first part was directed at you about that LRM5 boat; the rest were for the thread in general.

[PhoenixFire55]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Do you want to go to a lobby and stand in the open on Polar at 800m, me with ERLLs/ERPPCs/whatever and you with LRMs and see who wins? You can even pick the tonnage.

Sure, why not. I don't have a premium but I'm sure we can find someone to launch us.

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

What if I bring ECM? AMS? Or are we saying no counters?

The question of counters is an interesting one. Most competitive teams don't bother with LRM counters at all simply because rocks and buildings do same as ECM and AMS but better. However as I've pointed out on a map with no cover the situation can change dramatically. Obviously bringing ECM/AMS in abundance will severely lower the opponents chances should they bring LRMs, however it also obviously increases your opponents chances should they bring anything but LRMs as you waste tonnage and/or bring an ECM mech instead of an optimal one.

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Fine either way but the argument you're trying to make flat out isn't rational. At any range Hitscan or PPFLD > slow delivery of scattered damage. Sure, anyone can twist damage to a degree but twisting LRMs or just walking along spreads them over your whole mech. Twisting off PPFLD is still going to get you the full payload in 1 location each time and with lasers it's not too far off that.

Unless your first/second alpha either kills or severely cripples your opponent the slow delivery won't matter at all. An LRM boat of the same tonnage will have a much higher sustained DPS than anything with PPC/Gauss/ERLL. Surely you will deal much more damage in the first 5-7 seconds, but you will also gain heat much faster. Past 10 seconds mark unless you've managed to cripple a lurmer you've pretty much lost it. As soon as LRMs start to connect your aiming will also be obstructed by both screen shake and explosions, and even if it doesn't prevent a really good player from returning fire it does make it harder, a problem an LRM boat never has since aiming isn't required. The only thing that currently stays on par in terms of sustained DPS at ~800m ranges with LRMs is a bunch of AC2s, but needless to say AC2s spread about as much as LRMs and require even more constant face time, not allowing for wicked torso twisting skills at all.

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

So are you saying the correct balance in the game for LRMs is.... eliminating cover? Do you understand that just ensures that the guy with better aim and longer range will win every time?

Nope, I'm saying that LRM balancing should be done based on no-cover fighting situations rather than based on peek-from-cover trades. And I am also saying that no-cover fighting situations should occur far more often, i.e. there should be far more maps with little to no cover in rotation. Exact same should be said about SRMs and other brawling weapons and maps with no open spaces.

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Also still looking for the match in MRBC you're talking about. I sorted through 20 pages and only saw 1 match with 1 LRM mech in it and it wasn't a div A or B and I don't think you can watch the match and argue reasonably that the team that won did it because they had an LRM Archer on their team.

I don't remember exactly, but during either 7th or 8th season BSMC won vs WDMC on Polar using an LRM deck. Thats a EU Div.A match. From what I remember exactly is same BSMC winning against ISKRA in SL EU just a few weeks ago (I took part in it).

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

If all competitive matches were on polar they would play similarly just with easier heat management to matches on Canyon. You might see more fast brawlers, at least based on how the scrims played out.

This is entirely false due to several reasons. Apart from Polar not having much in terms of cover unlike Canyons, it is also a far bigger map, which leads to greater ranges of engagement and dropdecks tend to have far more ERLLs than Gauss/PPC (especially since Gauss max ranged has been c*strated by PGI). Plus, as you know, MRBC drops are conquest, and teams are forced to pay attention to caps right off the bat as merely winning the fight in a rather slow long-ranged trade war leaves no time to secure caps afterwards.

Anyway, I'm not saying LRMs are a guaranteed win on an open map, even in the best of scenarios, but they aren't as inferior as you might think. You might win that duel sure, but you'll hardly have anything left of your mech afterwards.

Also, don't forget that you can always narc a couple mechs and lurm them down being perfectly under cover yourself while your opponent tryes to close in the distance or flanks your cover. Taking out one or two slow assaults without losing much of anything on your side is an advantage that isn't going to be lost in a match between equally skilled teams. But thats another matter.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 27 March 2017 - 01:59 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Lykaon, on 25 March 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

Well if we are talking about battletech table top rules...

No you didn't need a C3 network for indirect fire you only needed a friendly unit that had LOS to the target...

Which in turn gives horrendous to-hit penalties which even "veteran" level IS pilots won't overcome.

Lykaon, on 25 March 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

The LRMs would still be capable of indirect fire with or without the C3 network.

True, but more of an artillery mode rather than guided missile mode in terms of accuracy / hit chances.

[MischiefSC]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 March 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

Sure, why not. I don't have a premium but I'm sure we can find someone to launch us.



The question of counters is an interesting one. Most competitive teams don't bother with LRM counters at all simply because rocks and buildings do same as ECM and AMS but better. However as I've pointed out on a map with no cover the situation can change dramatically. Obviously bringing ECM/AMS in abundance will severely lower the opponents chances should they bring LRMs, however it also obviously increases your opponents chances should they bring anything but LRMs as you waste tonnage and/or bring an ECM mech instead of an optimal one.



Unless your first/second alpha either kills or severely cripples your opponent the slow delivery won't matter at all. An LRM boat of the same tonnage will have a much higher sustained DPS than anything with PPC/Gauss/ERLL. Surely you will deal much more damage in the first 5-7 seconds, but you will also gain heat much faster. Past 10 seconds mark unless you've managed to cripple a lurmer you've pretty much lost it. As soon as LRMs start to connect your aiming will also be obstructed by both screen shake and explosions, and even if it doesn't prevent a really good player from returning fire it does make it harder, a problem an LRM boat never has since aiming isn't required. The only thing that currently stays on par in terms of sustained DPS at ~800m ranges with LRMs is a bunch of AC2s, but needless to say AC2s spread about as much as LRMs and require even more constant face time, not allowing for wicked torso twisting skills at all.



Nope, I'm saying that LRM balancing should be done based on no-cover fighting situations rather than based on peek-from-cover trades. And I am also saying that no-cover fighting situations should occur far more often, i.e. there should be far more maps with little to no cover in rotation. Exact same should be said about SRMs and other brawling weapons and maps with no open spaces.



I don't remember exactly, but during either 7th or 8th season BSMC won vs WDMC on Polar using an LRM deck. Thats a EU Div.A match. From what I remember exactly is same BSMC winning against ISKRA in SL EU just a few weeks ago (I took part in it).



This is entirely false due to several reasons. Apart from Polar not having much in terms of cover unlike Canyons, it is also a far bigger map, which leads to greater ranges of engagement and dropdecks tend to have far more ERLLs than Gauss/PPC (especially since Gauss max ranged has been c*strated by PGI). Plus, as you know, MRBC drops are conquest, and teams are forced to pay attention to caps right off the bat as merely winning the fight in a rather slow long-ranged trade war leaves no time to secure caps afterwards.

Anyway, I'm not saying LRMs are a guaranteed win on an open map, even in the best of scenarios, but they aren't as inferior as you might think. You might win that duel sure, but you'll hardly have anything left of your mech afterwards.

Also, don't forget that you can always narc a couple mechs and lurm them down being perfectly under cover yourself while your opponent tryes to close in the distance or flanks your cover. Taking out one or two slow assaults without losing much of anything on your side is an advantage that isn't going to be lost in a match between equally skilled teams. But thats another matter.

LRM hits do not mess with your aiming, at all, unless you're not paying attention. My shots still hit dead center.

I could repeat all the stuff that's been shown, time and again, in play and competitive matches but I'll shoot you a friend request tomorrow and we'll play some duels on Polar.

There's cover on Polar BTW. Canyons, hills, plus structures. Unless one/both teams are totally ignorant of the map they're going to play around cover. Alpine has more open space you have to cross than Polar does, unless you're wandering out in the open for giggles.

[PhoenixFire55]

MischiefSC, on 27 March 2017 - 03:09 AM, said:

There's cover on Polar BTW. Canyons, hills, plus structures. Unless one/both teams are totally ignorant of the map they're going to play around cover. Alpine has more open space you have to cross than Polar does, unless you're wandering out in the open for giggles.

Cover that prevents LoS and cover that protects you from lurms are different things tho. While there is plenty of the former on Polar that isn't any of the latter (two low-ish buildings per map doesn't really count).

[Bishop Steiner]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 March 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

Cover that prevents LoS and cover that protects you from lurms are different things tho. While there is plenty of the former on Polar that isn't any of the latter (two low-ish buildings per map doesn't really count).

Preventing LoS and adding a Radar Derp is just as good as having a building eat the LRMs, since you break the lock instantly, regardless. Unless one stands still. Also, used well, you can do a lot to make getting the lock in the first place very difficult.

Add spotters, TAG and NARC into the equation and things do change a bit.

[Mcgral18]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 March 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:

Which in turn gives horrendous to-hit penalties which even "veteran" level IS pilots won't overcome.

The horrendous to-hit of... +1

http://www.sarna.net...338/Main/175298


Along with spotter movement, and spotter to-hit penalties (terrain, distance)
Which would add up to more than 1

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 March 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mcgral18, on 27 March 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

The horrendous to-hit of... +1

http://www.sarna.net...338/Main/175298


Along with spotter movement, and spotter to-hit penalties (terrain, distance)
Which would add up to more than 1

Sorry I've no clue what kind of ruleset he uses, it was always +2, thus your usual target moved/attacker moved/light cover combo of +4 turns into a +6 which with a 3/3 pilot is pretty much unhittable on average.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 27 March 2017 - 07:20 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Roughneck45, on 24 March 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

Four easy steps to not have people ***** at you for bringing LRMs.

Be a medium or heavy, share your armor, target big mechs, and make sure your missiles are connecting.

And vote polar highlands every time.

This is important. Miss that step and you end up on Polar where all 3 of your assaults are LRM boats that just sit in a ravine and wait for locks.

[The Lobsters]

In some ways there are two types of player that find themselves playing MWO, and this creates a schism that the 'Lrm question' sits over.

There are the first person shooter guys, and there are the tactical sim guys. PGI's implementation of lrm's is a bit hamstrung between both these types of players, with lrm's being much more of the tactical sim than first person shooter. Within the context of a tactical sim, lrm's represent the ability to quickly project efficient dps over a large area, and the people that use them well, and use them in higher tiers (they do exist) are aware of that, and leverage that ability. Ultimately though, it's a damage method that suits a slower gameplay on larger maps, with an emphasis on teamwork.

Conversely, the fps guys prefer a faster paced game on smaller maps, with weapons that are more likely to deliver that 'kill shot', and are in builds that are self sufficient and rely less on teamwork to be effective.

The tactical sim guys would prefer to re-enact the Battle of Stalingrad, the first person shooter guys would prefer to re-enact the Gunfight at the OK Corral.


It's understandable that, for an online competitive game like MWO, that the developers would want to keep the game as fast paced as possible, so there is a bias towards fps and lrm's will feel sub-par with that type of playstyle. Fps guys understanding of skill tends to be more twitchy eye-hand hitscan, so naturally feel lrm's are cheating, and no substitute for getting that 'kill shot' (when they get one).

Tactical sim guys understanding of skill is more in reading the battlefield, the cadence of the match, and the opposing team as a whole. They may view those 'high alpha kill shots then hide' with little match penalty as cheating and no substitute for efficient damage projection (when they get it).




.

Edited by The Lobsters, 27 March 2017 - 09:43 AM.

[JediPanther]

I've been a lrm boater since closed beta with the catapults. Since pgi hasn't deleted them from the game or the lrm system it can't be as bad as gen dis forums would have you believe.The catapult remains my top mech on use-age and lrms fairly high on weapon use-age next to the med laser and tag.

What it does need is a faster lock on time, longer target decay, and faster velocity quirk for each lrm type with the lrm 20 getting the best one and the 5 the lowest to combat the lrm 5 spam as I've ran the 5 spam-er A1 lots of times.

What I don't get all the dam hard counters to lrm making it such a pain in the *** weapon particularly for the IS side to get damage and kills with. Let's count them now shall we using our is lrm for a standard?

1. BIG INCOMING MISSILE WARNING FLASHING IN YOUR FACE. No warning for AC or er/ppc fire...how strange...?

2. BITCHING BETTY YELLING...for the love of your chosen Deity shut the bitching thing off; I have that thing flashing in my face thanks so much and I'm not deaf yet..*****.

3. S.....l...o......w.... speed. Even an Atlas at 64kph and near cover has ample time to crawl there. After all he has number one above combined with number two telling him to move his slow slug of a mech to it or die..

4. ECM. Do you remember the time before the godly raven 3l and it's ecm? The old vets still here do. We learned how to avoid missiles without it long time ago. Without bap/clan active probe that ecm mech can dance and sing and slowly take off your mech piece by piece since ecm jams your missiles so they don't fire. Oh that 90m ecm range? It use to be 190m.

5. Minimal range. So you do have bap/cap. Good for you except is lrms do zero damage under the magic number of 180m while clan lrms do very laughable damage.Watch your is lrms bounce off the enemy mechs at 179m or less.

6. AMS. Imagine a weapon dedicated to shooting down lrms. Imagine one shooting lrms that were aimed at you. Well that is exactly what ams does. About three tons is all it takes for the launcher and a ton or two of ammo. The laser version doesn't take ammo. Imagine that. Now enters the nightmare of a mech with two or more of them and they rage modules to increase the ams range and fire rate.Guess what? They exist in the game. You only have to use them.

7. Cover. It can be any thing between you and the lrms. A rock,a hill,part of a building, even a team mate. Lrms both clan and lrm do not pass through solid objects except maybe an invisible hole in one the map makers forgot to fix.
8. Radar Depervation module. Psudo-ECM for those mechs that don't have ecm. Go behind any cover and the mech targeting you suddenly loses that target lock. Extremly useful on my locust and jenners and a much hated object detested by my catapults.
So with a grand total of at least eight,yes eight counters to lrms why the hell would you bother to use lrms? Or rather how do you use lrms and be a "good" lrm-er compared to a "bad" lrm-er?
We all know how "bad" lrm-ers are. Bad lrm-ers do most if not all of every thing in this list:
1. Don't equip beagle active probe/clan active probe.
2. Stay far away as possible from the main fight. 600m or 1100m away.
3. Don't move much if at all. They take fire and keep shooting dur lrmz.
4. Fire lrms under minimal range. Quite often at a face hugging enemy mech who is throughly enjoying shooting a mech that can't do return damage.
5. Have no back up weapons. The only dedicated lrm mech in the game incabable of useing a back up weapon is the Catapult A1. Even then it can be argued that you should have one or two srm launchers in the A1 Catapult with srm ammo for it being one ton srm ammo per srm launcher.
6. Beg for locks at the start of a match. Again with the A1 as out special snow flake most other mechs have an energy hard point to which they could put TAG.
7. No Tag. TAG is a laser pointer plain and simple. Point it at the enemy and you get a lock on it. It locks slower on ecm mechs but it will lock. It requires only one (1) energy hard point in any location. Poor A1 with its lack of energy hard points but maybe snowflake added some srm launchers.
8. NO UAV module/Consumable. Yes it is a one time use. It launches into the air and counters all ecm in its radius. As an added bonus it shows all enemy mechs on the mini-map. It can be shot down too. Use it wisly.
9. Never comunicates with team. No use of the in game voip,chat or command wheel. Often rages at the team after being killed by a light mech or other fast mover as much as an assassult complains about being left behind.
A "good" lrm-er does exactly the oposite of the list above and more. What does a "good lrm-er do besides not making all of the above mistakes? Here's a few:
1. Moves constantly with the team never getting far away. 300m-550m is the range they stay at the max from the nearest team mate.
2. Builds his mech to counter the hard counters with all the available equipment he can shove onto his mech. BAP,CAP,TAG,UAV,Sesmic Sensor,Sensor range, and back up weapons are all standard equipment. The lrm launchers and lrm ammo are the last weapons/things added to the mech build.
3. Learns the spread and velocities of the lrms including how long to impact on target.
4. Knows the map very well including counter grids.
5. Uses positioning on the map to maximise damage potential to find firing angles that will avoid angling into cover.
6. Target priotizes and switching. Learns when to switch targets from a low threats to higher threats. Example: switches targets from an er ll sniper to the dire-just-begun-pushing-on-right-flank so he can engage the dire.
7. Brawls when needed and doesn't keep lrm-ing a distant target while a closer more threating target is in range of back up weapons.
8. Pays attention to map position,team position, his own position and respons to damage indicators taking cover and returning fire. Many a "bad" lrm-er do not return fire and switch to that enemy light/fast mover hiting them only to die and rage at the team.

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

Preventing LoS and adding a Radar Derp is just as good as having a building eat the LRMs, since you break the lock instantly, regardless. Unless one stands still. Also, used well, you can do a lot to make getting the lock in the first place very difficult.

Add spotters, TAG and NARC into the equation and things do change a bit.

Except the TAG/NARC/spotters are getting focused by 12 mechs.

[Albino Boo]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 March 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Martini Henry was a single shot falling block action, originally loaded with blackpowder (an explosive), and later with smokeless powders (a propellant) which changed nothing of the difficulty of landing a shot at extreme range with a rainbow trajectory, especially with iron sights. The velocity, trajectory and accuracy of it was no different than from a muzzle loader with the same powder charge and size of projectile. All the cartridge did, in this instance was make it faster to load, and more reliable.

The listed max range on those weapons was fire use for volley fire. A few marksman used them for sharp shooting, but that was not the actual intent off those ranges. And it didn't make it any easier. Range is a simple matter of velocity, mass, size, sectional density, etc. Whether done with smokeless or blackpowder, single shot, magazine fed or muzzle loaded is irrelevant to that.

The point of the illustration, was quite simply that the combination of modern cartridge design, bullet, higher velocity and sectional density, combined with modern magnified sights, and a multi shot magazine, all make it a superior choice, and yes, easier to hit at long range, than the blackpowder rifle, which is prone to many more variables ( including moving it off target to reload, non magnified sights) make it much more difficult to make those shots at long, with repeatable accuracy.

As a side note I've been doing blackpowder long range shooting for quite some time, and have owned and used martini Henry's, among others. And once shot modern scoped rifles quite a bit, too.

Tell that to the Russians killed by Afghans in the 1980s using Martini Henry copies. Their ghosts will go cool story bro

Edited by Albino Boo, 27 March 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Albino Boo, on 27 March 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Tell that to the Russians killed by Afghans in the 1980s using Martini Henry copies. Their ghosts will go cool story bro

are these the magical magazine fed martini henrys? Oh and go make a video of you picking off people at 1000 meters with these magical martinis. Show me how easy it is to hit things at that range with them. That'd make a real cool story.

MischiefSC, on 27 March 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Except the TAG/NARC/spotters are getting focused by 12 mechs.

Sure, if they are dumb. Plenty of low channels to flank without getting spotted, and certainly without exposing yourself to a 12 man.

While I would never suggest LRMs are going to become meta any time soon... maybe they'd be a bit stronger if folks learned the art of spotting? (patience, not getting spotted yourself... which is why NARC is vastly better for this than TAG...since NARC doesn't give away your spotter's location.)

I can give classes on how to spot without getting focused by 12 mans, if you need one?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 March 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[Barantor]

Albino Boo, on 27 March 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

Tell that to the Russians killed by Afghans in the 1980s using Martini Henry copies. Their ghosts will go cool story bro

They used a variety of weapons from a Martini Henry, to Enfields, to Mosins, AK/SKS to those manpads the CIA gave them to combat the helos.

There was a guy with a Broadsword in WW2, but just because a weapon has statistics doesn't mean you use them on their absolute max at all times.

I doubt very seriously that most folks could see the target at some of the distances that were listed for rifles intended for volley fire pre 1950 production.