271 replies to this topic

[SQW]

FupDup, on 24 March 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Why the heck would lasers have recoil? That makes no damn sense.

Recoil, cone of fire, pick a name. Pin point damage went of fashion in the late 90s.

Conservation of momentum. Photons have some and we are talking megajoules of them. BT books even mentions pulse lasers track upwards like machine guns. Even if you discount the lasers, BT universe PPC definitely does because it's basically shooting out a ball of plasma which has noticeable mass.

Anyway, my point is laser boat is far more of easy mode than LRM boat. My tier score moved more in one night with BNC-3M(C) last night than I have for 2 months playing with my RVN, BJ, HBK, CN and Jager (all positive K/D, W/L ratio).

[Necro Ash]

So after watching this go back and forth with points raised, shot down, altered, deconstructed etc...


How, or what would make them viable 'balanced' alternatives to PPFLD play ?

(Removing them not being an option)

[Variant1]

Necro Ash, on 24 March 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

So after watching this go back and forth with points raised, shot down, altered, deconstructed etc...


How, or what would make them viable 'balanced' alternatives to PPFLD play ?

(Removing them not being an option)

we could remove quirks, they realy make ttk low. Make all mechs ct really small. Better ghost heat say more than 1 heavy weapon means alot of heat, that way chainfiring is more forced on those ppffld players

Edited by Variant1, 24 March 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[InspectorG]

Khobai, on 24 March 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

... Its simply a matter of finding the proper balance of how good LRMs should be at direct fire to offset their ability to indirect fire.

And here is the problem:

They cant be 'almost' as good as ERPPC/direct fire.

The problem is if in the context of boating and combined fire from multiple units, LRMs were say, half as good as direct fire, it would be the meta.

MWO would verge away from FPS and into Missile Command.

The threat projection would be too great and first team to get a solid lock would win.

Thats an extreme example but thats what would happen if everyone could indirectly piggy back on one lock.

The other part of the problem is how BT rules were ported to a FPS. Add in PGI's skill at balancing all the things as well.

Direct Fire was balanced by 2D6, not the skill of players able to pick off components under extreme circumstances when attacking.

So as it stands, to add utility or value to LRMs would likely have to be via another avenue. Something like limiting them to overview 'B' map usage as area denial, remove the ability to share locks, or give ridiculous cooldowns.

Necro Ash, on 24 March 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

How, or what would make them viable 'balanced' alternatives to PPFLD play ?

Would probably need a functioning Infotech to humor that type of balance.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Mcgral18, on 24 March 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

They also can't do anything past 500M, with the ample warning you receive.

No, they do one thing... They make you want to hide behind a rock. The best lurmers (and yes, there are darn few) will use that impulse and fire a single launcher to force an enemy into cover so their team can cross open ground or concentrate fire more effectively. When you hear that warning you dont know how many missiles are coming... It could be 60, it could be 5.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah as mentioned LRM boats are fine in certain classes, specifically not assault (assaults can take lrms its just silly to LRM boat an assault), they provide as much tactical viability as any other build, so long as the WHOLE TEAM isn't lrm boats lol.

And IMO they are so popular because of a weird drop off in people using ams, hopefully laser ams will help to encourage people to utilise multiple AMS to cut down a lot of LRM shenanigans, in which case people will need to boat lrms to do real damage with them, so thier viability will still remain as a weapon in general, but less of the LRM domination that I tend to frequently see.

[Shifty McSwift]

ScrapIron Prime, on 24 March 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

When you hear that warning you dont know how many missiles are coming... It could be 60, it could be 5.

Yeah I would chalk this up as part of the effect of LRMs in general, they put the fear of rain into people's hearts, like they should, it is their main purpose to keep people on the lookout for scouts and put targets under pressure. People tend to respond to missile alerts faster than they respond to being hit in the back by actual weapon fire.

And you could always look up to check what kind of missile stream is heading at you, at the obvious risk of taking missiles to your eyes

[jjm1]

Girly weapons.

Come at me lurm bros.

[BabyCakes666]

wow all this input

im going to have a long night reading most of this O_ov

[PlayerUnknown]

The real reason lrm hate is because we all get mad when Rookie players score and bonus and kick our asses with L RM250 combined it's just annoying as f*** to get hit by lurms until you're dead like what the hell just happened. Look lrm mixed with narc and tag work really well don't believe me find those badass lrm Pilots you know who they are and ask them to show you how do battle with lrm trust me I have seen guys do over a thousand damage with 2 lrm 10 in group drops if I can remember their names I would put them on blast right now but I don't and they did that using just those setups its like insane it's just how you use it that makes it work know what I mean how does Colonel O'Neill in that one guy from Dropship five do over a thousand damage in a freaking Commando in a group drop come on if they can do it so can you

[Ted Wayz]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

It's seen, tested and proven. If someone wants to show that LRMs are viable they need to do so to the same standards by which they have been proven non-viable - in a competitive level environment, consistently and repeatedly.

Viable in the non-existent competitive environment of MWO? That represents .01% of play.

But in the 99.99% remaining...they seem to work fine.

Maybe next time use bigger words. It might confuse people into believing you.

[Shifty McSwift]

JayRtech, on 24 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

it's just annoying as f*** to get hit by lurms until you're dead like what the hell just happened.

Is it just me or does anyone else think the screen shake rate for missiles is way OTT considering the actual damage each one does?

It could be less than half of what it is now and still be greatly disturbing to accuracy (plus the vision obscuring when hit in the face).

[Marius Evander]

Ted Wayz, on 24 March 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

Sounds like bad pilots, not a bad weapon system.

I didn't know enemy pilots could Force me to stand in the open

You can make me not twist my arms towards incoming missiles and always face my CT towards them ? wow.......

[Shifty McSwift]

Cadoazreal, on 24 March 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

I didn't know enemy pilots could Force me to stand in the open

You can make me not twist my arms towards incoming missiles and always face my CT towards them ? wow.......

Have you met the polar highgrounds?

Also it is hard to shoot an lrm boat without pointing your face at him.

Also also, you can only spread lrm damage so much before you start falling apart.

[Marius Evander]

Shifty McSwift, on 24 March 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Have you met the polar highgrounds?

Also it is hard to shoot an lrm boat without pointing your face at him.

Also also, you can only spread lrm damage so much before you start falling apart.

Polar. J6.

It's hard to time facing him between the missile salvo's ??

Their CT is usually dead before my arms.

[Ukabix]

I have nothing against LRMs per se. I have something against too many LRM boats on team/teams, mainly because it makes the gameplay more static when no ECM mechs are present on the field. I have something against playing Polar Highgrounds 5 times in a row with teams full of LRMs. It is more of a matchmaker issue. It makes the experience quite game dull at times.

[Wil McCullough]

Shifty McSwift, on 24 March 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Have you met the polar highgrounds?

Also it is hard to shoot an lrm boat without pointing your face at him.

Also also, you can only spread lrm damage so much before you start falling apart.

polar is deceptive. it looks like a tabletop but there's actually A LOT of cover on the map. not "lurms can't hit me here" kinda cover, but cover that makes the enemy lose line of sight. the map has so many ditches and hillocks that aren't used.

[Weeny Machine]

Hate is the wrong word. Baffled at the stupidity of the game mechanic is more fitting. I will explain why...

The lock mechanic is easy, there is hardly any effort outside of ECM cover required - it is as if every mech was in a C3 network
This leads to the following problems:

1. Brawlers/lights with close range weapons are punished. You simply have to abbandon an attack or you risk being drowned in wave after wave of LRM. That is quite annoying because you need to sneak up on your target, bypass seismic only to find that 1 guy 900m away can press R and make all your efforts obsolete - plus you get also shot at while you retreat by your intended "victim".

2. LRMs support the snipe meta. Snipers can conveniently move back into cover until the lrms hit a rock - not a brawler

3. You have sometimes LRM heavies and assaults sitting behind a rock (often at 700-900m range) while the team is supposed to get locks for them. These are the worst of the LRMers. A good boat tries also to get locks for himself and shares armour.


However, the same goes for streaks' lock mechanic. A weapon system which hardcounters a mech class etc

The point is: lock mechanics which are too easily accessible in a shooter is simply a very bad idea. This can be seen at the dominating snipe meta because all other ways to fight are riskies because of mechanics like these lock mechanics

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 March 2017 - 04:26 AM.

[Abisha]

SQW, on 24 March 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

Recoil, cone of fire, pick a name. Pin point damage went of fashion in the late 90s.

Conservation of momentum. Photons have some and we are talking megajoules of them. BT books even mentions pulse lasers track upwards like machine guns. Even if you discount the lasers, BT universe PPC definitely does because it's basically shooting out a ball of plasma which has noticeable mass.

Anyway, my point is laser boat is far more of easy mode than LRM boat. My tier score moved more in one night with BNC-3M(C) last night than I have for 2 months playing with my RVN, BJ, HBK, CN and Jager (all positive K/D, W/L ratio).

Phontons do not have mass, they only carry momentum (tiny bit). a laser in MWO i take 1 damage is comparable to 10 MW laser the recoil of a Large Laser would be like a micro meter or less on a mech that's have the mass of 100 ton not including gravity pull.

so no lasers have no recoil no matter how much energy it delivers.

[Bishop Steiner]

Abisha, on 25 March 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

Phontons do not have mass, they only carry momentum (tiny bit). a laser in MWO i take 1 damage is comparable to 10 MW laser the recoil of a Large Laser would be like a micro meter or less on a mech that's have the mass of 100 ton not including gravity pull.

so no lasers have no recoil no matter how much energy it delivers.

I believe his comment, which you quoted, clarified his point which was not actual "recoil" but an imperfect aiming mechanism.
Such as CoF, reticle sway, convergence, etc, to make dropping all the damage into one component more difficult.

A separate point of much contention in this community. Laughably so.