64 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

The Garg has 6 E slots, with Cspl's there is NO heat penalty as it is set @6 units now. So you get a 36 point Alpha with 73% heat eff. and can fire every .75s once you get into its 297m max Range...

Edited by Almond Brown, 24 March 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Small weapon boats counter themselves with heat and range limitations. The only instance I think it's ridiculous is novas within scouting, but that plays more into faction imbalances

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2017 - 06:30 AM, said:

Why exactly are we worried about the boating of small weapons when the meta is still about boating the largest?

Because, some people can't get rid of Lights fast enough...

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

You realize that is pretty much ALL they can do right?

If it weren't for those SPL boats, the Exe and Garg would be lost in the see of bad assaults (and there are many).

Considering that if SPL boats couldn't/don't succeed, not much else will (SRM boats sustainability isn't always there either) vs the mid-long range meta.

I wish people spent more time figuring this out instead of basing it on really low level play.

[panzer1b]

You want to counter SPL boats, then play the range game. Those things pack insane alfas and have very good DPS, but they cannot do jack to your gauss+ppc boat provided you are outside of brawl range.

Its all about positioning, stay outside of ~300m and try to have a spot where you can both retreat from if they try to rush you, and that limits their ability to flank you or sneak behind you (ur a 1 shot kill to 10+ spls even in assaults). That and try not to get isolated either, brawlers love to go 1 vs 1 against a target as they are almost certain of a win at short range then.

[InspectorG]

CK16, on 24 March 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

So how could MWO try to counter this? The new crit system kind of seems like it is in the right direction (smaller weapons = less health). But does it fix the issue?

By governing what can be grouped on the Weapon Groups panel and by giving a hard 1 sec cooldown between firings of groups.

No energy draw.

No quirks.

Can keep Ghost Heat.

Different chassis/variants can have different sized groups for 'roles'.

[Bud Crue]

My "small weapon" boating mechs are my worst performers by far. There needs to be no "counter" as they are so niche, with such a specialized "role" (short range brawling) that outside of some potential scouting roles they are often useless...unless you get real lucky.

I don't count lights running 4-5 or even 6 spl or ml in this either. They're lights, they don't have much choice. But when I compare my Crabs for example, the std engine 5MPL or 6MPL is by far my worst performers (again outside of scouting). 3LL, 3LPL or even my 2ERPPC 2SPL (SL) builds all perform better.

The heavier a mech gets the more this is true. Look at Grasshoppers and their meta builds. Now go play them. When you get to the 5N with 4ML and 4MPL let me know how that works out for you on Polar, Alpine, Desert, etc. Swap out the meta 3LPL 4ML (etc.) on any IS heavy and spam SPLs or even ML/MP and let me know your results.

No counter is needed against small weapon boaters. They counter themselves with their limitations.

Edited by Bud Crue, 24 March 2017 - 08:50 AM.

[MacClearly]

This isn't a problem. It is an option. Nothing should be done about it because there is nothing wrong with doing it.

[Jackal Noble]

NO! Not the ER SMALLS!!! Get em away! Death from a thousand tiny cuts.

Hey if and or when we ever get new tech, micro-lasers!! Death from a hundred thousand tinier cuts.

[Amsro]

Ugh, really? Worried about short range, low tonnage weapons on giant target mechs?

The sky is falling.

The counter would be stay out of their range and LOL to victory.

6/10 troll thread.

[C E Dwyer]

CK16, on 24 March 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

Well I mean no one finds it odd seeing an assualt mech boating 10+ small lasers >.>

(Looking at your Gargles and Executioner!)

Charger for the win !

[Skanderborg]

The root of the problem is heat sinks increasing heat capacity , a thing they don't do in the TT.

They should only increase heat disappation , this would reduce the simply ridiculous alphas we have and the boating of high heat weapons.

If you notice , the bigger weapons take up more tonnage , but do more damage per heat.

Lighter weapons tend to be really weak on heat effiency.

Edited by Skanderborg, 24 March 2017 - 10:27 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Skanderborg, on 24 March 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

The root of the problem is heat sinks increasing heat capacity , somthing they don't do in the TT.

They should only increase heat disappation , this would reduce the simply ridiculous alphas we have and the boating of high heat weapons.

Hope you like dakka spam, because that's what you would get. Dakka for days. Energy weapons would be worthless outside of things like cSPLs (ironically encouraging small laser boating).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 March 2017 - 10:28 AM.

[Skanderborg]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

Hope you like dakka spam, because that's what you would get. Dakka for days.

Its already happening?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Skanderborg, on 24 March 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Its already happening?

No, the dakka meta has been dying a slow death since the introduction of the Kodiak and subsequent dakka nerfs (UAC jam rates/times, AC5 heat). The only real dakka boats left these days are the HBK-IIC and Night Gyr UAC2 boats and those aren't really preferred over their counterparts by most teams.

That said, even if the dakka meta was upon us, why would you be trying to remove all of its competitors from play so that dakka is even stronger comparatively?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 March 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[FireStoat]

JackalBeast, on 24 March 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

NO! Not the ER SMALLS!!! Get em away! Death from a thousand tiny cuts.

Hey if and or when we ever get new tech, micro-lasers!! Death from a hundred thousand tinier cuts.

They're small, but yeah, I've caused some death with them.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3b3d549b83956de

[R Valentine]

CK16, on 24 March 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

Ok, this is one thing that has always bugged me about MWO, boating tons of small weapons is the go to instead if mounting few but larger caliber weapons. (Example the LRM5 spam vs double LRM20's.) In lore no Warrior would run in with 10 Small lasers (if he did it was the Charger and that things main varriant is crap on a stick!). I mean in TT sense larger caliber weapons are more useful cause it is one dice roll and a hit means all damage is focused on one component for that weapon (well for energy and Ballistic weapons). A small caliber boat might hit with all its weapons sure but chances of them being spread all around is highly likely (aka it might work but it isn't efficient).

So how could MWO try to counter this? The new crit system kind of seems like it is in the right direction (smaller weapons = less health). But does it fix the issue?

Stay at a longer distance. ERSmlas and cSmplas have very short range. I don't spam small weapons because of that, and in PUG matches being able to close the distance is no guarantee given how much everyone loves to hill hump.

[warner2]

Small weapons... perhaps not nonetheless the prevailing meta is the boating of multiple single weapons into a super weapon.

Of interest: http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/

[Bishop Steiner]

NRP, on 24 March 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

It's what forum warriors do - whine and cry about every possible thing they can whine and cry about.

whereas tryhards merely whine and cry about forumwarrior whining and crying...but in the most skillfull and patronizing of ways.

[Skanderborg]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

No, the dakka meta has been dying a slow death since the introduction of the Kodiak and subsequent dakka nerfs (UAC jam rates/times, AC5 heat). The only real dakka boats left these days are the HBK-IIC and Night Gyr UAC2 boats and those aren't really preferred over their counterparts by most teams.

That said, even if the dakka meta was upon us, why would you be trying to remove all of its competitors from play so that dakka is even stronger comparatively?

Yes it is a tricky problem. If you took the heat capacity increase off of heat sinks it would be a major burden on energy builds , however everything takes net nerf.

UAC boaters still run pretty hot in my opinion under continious fire so it would hamper them as well.

In my opinion if we did reduce heat capacity , mixed loadouts would be more popular. Players would need to juggle weapons instead of massed fire.

For example , if a mech had 3 large lasers and 2 ASRM6s , he would only use the lasers for long to med range and the SRM 6's for CQC because with a net heat capacity loss he could not keep all the weapons firing.

However i could be completely wrong and people would find another way to beat the system just like they have done before.

[Natred]

Here we go again with this hill hump or lrm boat in the back conversation... "omg 3 small laser lights jumped all over me and i could not even kill one." Its so overpowered you know, fighting with the team. Lol or in your case not fighting with your team is under powered.