95 replies to this topic

[Karl Marlow]

Wendigo Waltz, on 25 March 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

.

How many games of conquest end with "everyone capture points, hurry" only because one or two lights from the opposing team ran off to capture points instead of supporting their team? Like half? How many of those actually get lost because of resource points? Like half? So 75% of the time killing the entire enemy team is what wins......That not different.....

When was the last time you lost or won domination because one team secured the center point or had the smallest amount of time left at "time out"? Like never? Yeah me either....That's not different....That's arbitrary..... Meaningless

All of them end in points but then I play in FW and don't waste very much of my time in the kiddie pool known as quick play.

Even so conquest is always won on points. I've had several matches where the enemy team thought killing all the mechs was the objective and lost the match because of it.

[Koniving]

Wendigo Waltz, on 26 March 2017 - 03:56 AM, said:

The problem with a drop deck over respawn is that new players aren't going to have enough Mechs to have a drop deck. It could function the same way though.... Instead of infinite respawn, just 3 respawns....

The rest of your original comment about uping rewards was good stuff though.

Four trials versus one trial? Not much difference really. So long as they're playing tiers 5 and 4 like they should be they would be fine.

[Tier5ForLife]

I think we are getting off subject here....

[Nik Reaper]

It should probly be mentioned that even if we had respown in some game modes it shouldn't be infinite in number of lives, as we know from CW in skirmish games, unless you are making brawling charges on all 4 lives most only use up 2 lives and end due to time out rather than a complete team annihilation, though this happens some times to bad teams.

2 mechs per 15 min game on some game modes could be a thing, and let's get this one thing straight, don't talk about any kind of superior tactical experience in QP that some would be losing on if we had more lives per match, we all know that most of those games is simply a slog of pugs smashing in to each other with rare exceptions of them organizing, with less skilled or less lucky players stopping playing at 3~4 min due to being dead.

We could have a large end match bonus for not losing the first mech, witch is very doable if that team is winning convincingly, and a smaller one for surviving on the second mech to reward not rushing to death, as those game modes do not require a team wipe or time out to end, surviving is not a large time sink for all.

[Shino Tenshi]

Wendigo Waltz, on 26 March 2017 - 03:56 AM, said:

The problem with a drop deck over respawn is that new players aren't going to have enough Mechs to have a drop deck. It could function the same way though.... Instead of infinite respawn, just 3 respawns....

The rest of your original comment about uping rewards was good stuff though.

There's always sufficient trial mechs (if they can be used and if not, they should be) for a new player to be able to fill in enough drop deck spots to play. Not ideal, but at least they'd be able to get into the match.

[R Valentine]

No respawns is always skirmish. That's the inevitable truth that PGI will never face.

[PraetorGix]

If players stupidly insist on playing EVERY GAME MODE LIKE IT'S SKIRMISH, then every game mode will be skirmish. That's not PGI's fault and I doubt adding re-spawn, limitless or otherwise would help. Human idiocy is not something a dev can fix.

[Xaat Xuun]

I didn't read the replies, but no to Respawn in Quick Play.

A dropdeck to choose a mech after map & Mode voted, I would go for, but just to select a mech from, not for respawn

[Nesutizale]

PraetorGix, on 26 March 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

If players stupidly insist on playing EVERY GAME MODE LIKE IT'S SKIRMISH, then every game mode will be skirmish. That's not PGI's fault and I doubt adding re-spawn, limitless or otherwise would help. Human idiocy is not something a dev can fix.

Its true if people just want to play skirmish they will but its a differance if the gamemode promotes killing or makes other things more lucrative.
Problem is on how to get people more interested in doing the objectives then killing each other.

[R Valentine]

PraetorGix, on 26 March 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

If players stupidly insist on playing EVERY GAME MODE LIKE IT'S SKIRMISH, then every game mode will be skirmish. That's not PGI's fault and I doubt adding re-spawn, limitless or otherwise would help. Human idiocy is not something a dev can fix.

Lol, right. "It's the players that's the problem! BLAME THEM!" Yea, that's a winning business model right there.

[Lehmund]

Tiantara, on 25 March 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

- No respawn in QP... Mech Deck only for FP. All what need just add Siege maps from Invasion to QP rotation with Incursion mode on them as well as big maps like Polar Highland.

Personally, I would kid be fine with respawns. I to keep with the flavour of MWclore though, I would make respawns timers take more and more time between spawns so on modes outside of Skirmish, games would focus on mode objectives. Skirmish could be won by killing X Mechs first .

So after the first death, drop ship drops you 30 secs later. 2nd death, 1 min later. 3rd death, 1:30 min later. Then no more drops.

[burning wisky]

No respawn on Quick play.
Every Game is like skirmish ,because PGI give us ownly 1 way to make good money.
DAMAGE, KILL , ASSISTS

Bring the Focus on the Gamemode to getan c Bills.
Assault Mode - more money for attack or defend the Base.
Defend turrets was good.
( the New Gamemode on pts have good Parts for that )
Moneyfocus - get the enemy base

Conquest
Bring turrets and defendstuff for the cappoints. ( if you destroy the turrets and cap the point back, you get a new turrets for your defend
Moneyfocus - cap and destroy that defendstuff.

Escort
Get the Vip a bit lower armor. FIRST CALL IS LEAVE THE VIP, ATTACK THE ENEMY HART AND KiLL THEM.
Give the Vip more speed. Bigger maps longer way to Run.

You See, There are more ways to go away from all skirmish gameplay.

( Those are just suggestions )

[R Valentine]

burning wisky, on 27 March 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

No respawn on Quick play.
Every Game is like skirmish ,because PGI give us ownly 1 way to make good money.
DAMAGE, KILL , ASSISTS

Bring the Focus on the Gamemode to getan c Bills.
Assault Mode - more money for attack or defend the Base.
Defend turrets was good.
( the New Gamemode on pts have good Parts for that )
Moneyfocus - get the enemy base

Conquest
Bring turrets and defendstuff for the cappoints. ( if you destroy the turrets and cap the point back, you get a new turrets for your defend
Moneyfocus - cap and destroy that defendstuff.

Escort
Get the Vip a bit lower armor. FIRST CALL IS LEAVE THE VIP, ATTACK THE ENEMY HART AND KiLL THEM.
Give the Vip more speed. Bigger maps longer way to Run.

You See, There are more ways to go away from all skirmish gameplay.

( Those are just suggestions )

As long as there are no respawns, skirmish will always be the default play mode. Even IF you reward objectives, killing the other team makes objectives a total cake walk, so we'll just have the same "skirmish now, play the minigame after" play style. Nothing precludes me from doing objectives after I kill all the enemies. There must be respawns in all game modes except skirmish. I don't know why people are so against having respawns in quick play. The game timer is 15 minutes, so that's the longest you'll ever see any match go. Is that really such a long time? People keep saying "no respawns in quickplay rawr!" but never actually explain why.

[Nesutizale]

Endless drops might be a problem as people will just go in without any regards in taking damage and jsut fire away, then take the next mech and do the "Leroy" again.
Also it would be a money pressing machine...everyone would want to make the max money they can get by killing as much as possible...that is if the reward system isn't reworked.

Here is my suggestion for a "limited endless drop"
Lets say for example each team has 100 points/drops
- If you die and redrop the team loses one point.
- If the enemy takes a batterie you lose 5 points
- If the enemy powers up a tower you lose 10 points
(All numbers are just an example)

So keeping the enemy from fullfilling the opjective becomes more importend then just killing a mech.

Reward system could be coupled with the points you take from the enemy team. That way a person that kills a lot of enemys and one that gets some objectives done would be rewarded similar. So no matter what you prefere to do you get your chance of a nice reward.

Edited by Nesutizale, 27 March 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Trev Firestorm]

Kiran Yagami, on 27 March 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

As long as there are no respawns, skirmish will always be the default play mode. Even IF you reward objectives, killing the other team makes objectives a total cake walk, so we'll just have the same "skirmish now, play the minigame after" play style. Nothing precludes me from doing objectives after I kill all the enemies. There must be respawns in all game modes except skirmish. I don't know why people are so against having respawns in quick play. The game timer is 15 minutes, so that's the longest you'll ever see any match go. Is that really such a long time? People keep saying "no respawns in quickplay rawr!" but never actually explain why.

I used to be in the no respawn camp, but years of skirmish with a side of skirmish and more skirmish has brought me around. The only way to stop the primary method of play from being kill them all then do stuff is to make it impossible to flat out kill them all. The problem comes from how to go about it and avoid respawn/dropship farming. Part of this is on the rewards side, objectives need to be better rewarded.

[MechaBattler]

Yeah, let's just cheapen the game with infinite respawns. : /

I think I would rather see them test the idea of repair bays. But it would have to be tied to map resource objectives. The repair bays wouldn't be able to restore destroyed limbs or components. And there would be diminishing returns on repairing multiple times, so teams don't just focus on heavies and assaults. Obviously larger mechs use up more resources.

[Appuagab]

Counter-Strike-like single spawn per player is surely an awful thing.

12-0 or 12-1 game is pretty common case for MWO. Very sweaty close games happen like 1 time out of 50.

Because of being so unforgivable to positioning mistakes (due to low TTK, huge PPFLD alphas and risk of getting instantly lurmed to death) this game feels more like flip a coin rather that tactical mech shooter/simutalor.

I understand that this game is supposed to be kinda tactical so you won't just run and shoot but with such undeveloped role warfrare and electronic warfare all you can do in this game is to run and shoot.

PGI tries to implement various objectives to make this game more than just counter-strike with robots BUT:
1. You aren't even getting rewarded for fulfilling objectives.
2. In most cases objectives are boring and lead to instant win. Find a dumb NPC Atlas in the middle of nowhere and sloooowly kill it. So much fun! Take your locust and capture the base. So much fun!
3. Objectives are basically a way to fast-forward 11-0 match when that one last ECM light is hiding shutdown somewhere. Not additional objectives that just help you to win by shooting all robots, not primary objectives that encourage you to shoot robots to achieve them, not objectives integrated with robotshooting so you have to balance between them (well, conquest is pretty close to that), just a way to finish the match faster when things get too boring. I remember good old times when me and my friends were dropping with four Atlases and every time we got dropped on Alpine Assault we were just slowly going to enemy base and capturing it to have a new normal match ASAP. Le Steiner scout lance maymay.
4. Talking about maps, some of them are so awful that they can work only as circus scene, not a battlefield for tactical shooting robots 3050. There's no way you can fit interesting entertaining game modes into such abomination as Alpine Peaks, Polar Highlands or Viridian Bog (irrational popularity of this map is one of reasons I play MWO so rarely last months).
5. ...and you can't even choose a particular mech for particular mp in QP. Tactics + random is an awful combination.

Dropdecks for QP maps in FW help a little (and make it much funnier to play) but many of core issues still remain. I see how PGI's trying to improve is all with Incursion but you can't just drop a bunch of capture towers on a skirmish and pretend that this is a whole-new experience.

Respawns could solve a bunch of these probles, not all of them, but a decent amount. I understand that in tactical shooter you must value your every single mech, but in MWO's current state it just doesn't work this way. And much depends on how exactly respawns would be implemented. But we definitely need tham, at least just repair bays.

[R Valentine]

MechaBattler, on 27 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Yeah, let's just cheapen the game with infinite respawns. : /

I think I would rather see them test the idea of repair bays. But it would have to be tied to map resource objectives. The repair bays wouldn't be able to restore destroyed limbs or components. And there would be diminishing returns on repairing multiple times, so teams don't just focus on heavies and assaults. Obviously larger mechs use up more resources.

The game is already cheap with most matches going 12-1 or 12-0. What exactly do you have to lose to getting extra lives? The game modes playing differently? And given how low TTK is, the odds of people even surviving to get back to said repair bays is low, and with assault mechs it's pretty much 0. They're so slow and easily hunted down to be finished. Repair bays will only reward the hide and peekers more, because they're the ones who play super safe and run at the first time of damage. Brawling would be DOA.

[Xaat Xuun]

they placed QP maps and modes in Faction Play, you want respawn, go play in Faction Play.
Quick play is that . . Quick play, one mech one match . . it's no longer quick play if you can respawn, Respawn in Quick play is just a different button for FP, that won't have siege & that can have mixed IS and Clan in the team

[Ano]

Wendigo Waltz, on 25 March 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

Its time that PGI admit to themselves that infinite respawn and being able to select which spawn point you respawn at is a manditory feature to make all quick play game modes outside of skirmish unique and meaningful. If killing the enemy team is always a potential win condition then it always going to be a commonly used tactic. Total team kill wins have been a major complaint for a long time now.

"Respawns in quickplay"
The problem with respawns in quickplay is that I think it's difficult not to undo the "quick" part of quickplay if you have respawns. A couple of the strengths of the quickplay setup is that a single match will take a maximum of 15mins (but typically 5-10 in my experience; queue times generally seem fine to me) AND that if, for whatever reason, a match becomes problematic (terrible team; terrible opponents; personal failure etc) then it won't be long before you're in a new match.

If you have a limited number of respawns (akin to faction play) then I strongly suspect matches will often play out like faction play, i.e. they will last much longer. If you switch to a completely different setup -- whether a generous 'ticket' system or (near) infinite respawns coupled with adjusted match win conditions (e.g. true capture/hold territory or other pure objective-based conditions) then I think it'll very much change the character of matches. While a match where everyone hides behind a rock for the first 10 minutes can be frustrating, I'm not sure I want to swap it for a format where people take the biggest alpha they can (with no thought for sustainability/ammo), and charge/alpha/override/alpha/die/repeat. Obviously there's no way to be sure that would happen, but it doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility.

EDITED TO ADD:
Reading through some of the other comments in this thread a little further and thought I'd add something about the character of matches, to elaborate on the hide/charge dichotomy I alluded to earlier.

Currently, in quickplay, within each match there's a risk/reward consideration for every action. Poking out *now* might get you a free backshot on an enemy assault or a PPC to the face; will pursuing that heavily damaged medium result in a kill and the removal of some of your enemy's available firepower, or will you run into the rest of her lance?

Experience, map knowledge etc all help you make better and faster decisions but there's always an strong element of risk.

If you change quickplay to a respawn-based system, that puts a heavy thumb on one side of those decisions (by reducing the affect on the player of errors in judgment/play). Some would argue that encouraging teams to be more aggressive is a good thing (I would tend to agree) but Leeroy-style charges could easily be an unintended consequence and that would shift the gameplay considerably.

Edited by Ano, 28 March 2017 - 04:07 AM.