58 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Isn't that over the top? maybe 24 - 26 dmg would be ok.

its not because the spread on the LBX20 is atrocious

I think 1.5 damage per pellet at point blank range with the damage dropping off linearly with range would be just about perfect.

It would be a brutally effective brawling weapon then.

Edited by Khobai, 29 March 2017 - 07:28 AM.

[Spheroid]

How about unlike every other weapon in the game we increase the damage done at range up to the optimum then flip that value and ride it down to zero at 2x optimum while holding the spread value constant.

That way average damage would not decrease over range owing to pellets missing the target. This effect is much closer to table top where the LBX canister detonated in close proximity to the target maintaining consistent damage regardless of range.

Reducing damage via projectile dispersion is more appropriate for something like a HAG.

Edited by Spheroid, 29 March 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[LordNothing]

the lb-10 is great when combined with insane fire rate quirks. remember when the catapult k-2 used to have those insane ballistic cooldown quirks? a couple lb-10s would really wreck face. that kind of needs to be the norm for the weapon for it to make any sense. just take cd down to 2 seconds. thats about equivalent to a 20% quirk.

the spread quirks have only been marginally effective, spread would need to be reduced by a lot. percentile variables really dont mean a whole lot in this case. i think to bring them into balance i would try to find a spread value where if you shot a kodiak at the max optimal range, that all the pellets would actually hit it in the torsos. that should be the norm and not the quirked value. id use the kodiak test as the gold standard for lbx performance across the board.

for flavor the clan version would have tighter spread (replace kodiak with timberwolf), and maybe a 2.25 cooldown and a higher velocity.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 March 2017 - 01:05 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 29 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

for flavor the clan version would have tighter spread (replace kodiak with timberwolf), and maybe a 2.25 cooldown and a higher velocity.

Wait, so the smaller and lighter one is better? I would trade the extra DPS for that tighter cone any day unless that tighter spread us negligible...making it pointless. Also, what part of PGI's implicit "Clans don't get FLD ACs" balancing tool is hard to understand and why do you people keep trying to sneak a workaround through?

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 March 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Wait, so the smaller and lighter one is better? I would trade the extra DPS for that tighter cone any day unless that tighter spread us negligible...making it pointless. Also, what part of PGI's implicit "Clans don't get FLD ACs" balancing tool is hard to understand and why do you people keep trying to sneak a workaround through?

you still get a dps boost, in addition to tighter spread and velocity than the is version. this is because i regognize (and stated in my original post) that i did not think spread and dps were on equal footing. thats what the extra velocity is for. spread will be tighter than is, but both weapons receive a spread tightening, but not to the point where its just as good as an is autocannon of similar size. what i do not want is to not be able to tell the difference between a clan lb10 and an is lb10. the lines are too similar already.

also you would think a t1 would be able to follow through on a clan autocannon salvo.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 March 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 29 March 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

you still get a dps boost, in addition to tighter spread and velocity than the is version. this is because i regognize (and stated in my original post) that i did not think spread and dps were on equal footing. thats what the extra velocity is for. spread will be tighter than is, but both weapons receive a spread tightening, but not to the point where its just as good as an is autocannon of similar size. what i do not want is to not be able to tell the difference between a clan lb10 and an is lb10. the lines are too similar already.

also you would think a t1 would be able to follow through on a clan autocannon salvo.

Don't be a child, you can't jump tart or poke with burst with same effectiveness as FLD for the same reason you can't jump tart or poke with a laser as well as a PPC: pure exposure time. I can synch a PPC blast at the end of a burst just fine.

The LB-10X are so close in weight and size that there is very little reason to differentiate them even that much and, if anything, the Clan one should be more of a sand-blaster since that's the general theme PGI has been going with when balancing Clan equipment.

[Metus regem]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 March 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Even more than that, I don't want airburst. I want it to be a shotgun.

By lore, it's not a shotgun, it is an airburst weapon... it fires what amounts to flak munitions. How would having a canister shot not make the weapon better? Have it work like it currently does with out a weapons lock, with weapons lock it flys out to about 100-50m from the target then bursts open... now the weapon is actually useful at longer range.

[Y E O N N E]

Metus regem, on 29 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

By lore, it's not a shotgun, it is an airburst weapon... it fires what amounts to flak munitions. How would having a canister shot not make the weapon better? Have it work like it currently does with out a weapons lock, with weapons lock it flys out to about 100-50m from the target then bursts open... now the weapon is actually useful at longer range.

And no more useful at short range. What have you accomplished?

[Metus regem]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

And no more useful at short range. What have you accomplished?

Made it a better weapon overall, as well as being more inline with what it should be.

[Y E O N N E]

Metus regem, on 29 March 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Made it a better weapon overall, as well as being more inline with what it should be.

How is it better? That just makes it as bad at 0 m as it would be at 540, while the shotgun approach lets it actually be good somewhere in that bracket.

[Felicitatem Parco]

This game does not need splash damage from airburst weapons. Splash damage does not work properly in MWO due to compartmentalization ... Remember the killer SRMs that dealt more damage to a commando than Gauss Slugs due to damage being duplicated across closely-spaced components?

Just make it a shotgun. And remember: An IS AC/10 should be a better overall weapon than an IS LBX/10 because it is larger and heavier. On the other hand, an IS LBX/20 should be a better overall weapon than an IS AC/20 because the LBX is bigger by one slot and cannot be used on Arms or with LFEs.

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 March 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Don't be a child, you can't jump tart or poke with burst with same effectiveness as FLD for the same reason you can't jump tart or poke with a laser as well as a PPC: pure exposure time. I can synch a PPC blast at the end of a burst just fine.

The LB-10X are so close in weight and size that there is very little reason to differentiate them even that much and, if anything, the Clan one should be more of a sand-blaster since that's the general theme PGI has been going with when balancing Clan equipment.

you are blatantly pushing that anti-salvo agenda when my original post was strictly about what id like to see done to the lb lines, and you are calling me a child?

is would get a messy brute force fast firing shotgun while the clan gets a more refined, tighter, higher velocity version. this actually complements the differences in the other clan and is autocannons. its good for flavor and its good for balance. if you want to poptart your ac20, then join the spheroids. ive never had an issue poptarting with my cac10+cerppc summoner. people get so hung up on the qualitative x is better than y that they dont consider the actual quantitative difference is so minuscule as to be irrelevant.

[Deathlike]

I chuckle when I see LB2X Direwolves poking me at close range.

It never does anything of consequence, let alone at range unless I was already messed up and effed up somehow... but then again any good build would then be more effective.

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 29 March 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

you are blatantly pushing that anti-salvo agenda when my original post was strictly about what id like to see done to the lb lines, and you are calling me a child?

Yes, because you are trying to take a crack at my playing ability, a deflecting ad-hominem. I have done no such thing.

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is would get a messy brute force fast firing shotgun while the clan gets a more refined, tighter, higher velocity version. this actually complements the differences in the other clan and is autocannons.

It doesn't complement them, it undermines the intent. PGI has always made the Clan weapons the more brute-force option, with greater damage through various means. Giving Clans an LB-10X with a tight wad that will, very likely, be useful for hitting single components on 'Mechs from 60 tons on up at ~350-400 meters undermines that whole effort, which is not good for balance.

Quote

its good for flavor and its good for balance. if you want to poptart your ac20, then join the spheroids. ive never had an issue poptarting with my cac10+cerppc summoner. people get so hung up on the qualitative x is better than y that they dont consider the actual quantitative difference is so minuscule as to be irrelevant.

It's not that miniscule, you just aren't facing very good players. Because it fires a burst, you have to rise higher, which means longer exposure, which means greater chance of receiving return fire. And that margin builds over the course of a match, while also combining with parts of your burst landing in other places that you did not intend on top of the expected number of missed shots you would get with any ballistic.

I would take any reasonable twin-PPC poptart against your cAC/10 Summoner any day.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 March 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[Rhialto]

I don't think they will tune it anymore, spread was lowered a bit a while ago and current LBX perform just fine with current crit chances. What I don't know though is I think they modified how crits works so I'm not sure if it had an impact here?

I really enjoy my dual LBX IV-FOUR and my quad LBX Mauler. Wait I think my IV-FOUR has been nerfed with latest patch? I haven't played it since then but I think I remember seeing a PDF files with Ballistic cooldown removed, is that in effect?

[Metus regem]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 March 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

How is it better? That just makes it as bad at 0 m as it would be at 540, while the shotgun approach lets it actually be good somewhere in that bracket.

Let me restate what I suggested, and I'll make the relivenet part more easy to read...

Metus regem, on 29 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

By lore, it's not a shotgun, it is an airburst weapon... it fires what amounts to flak munitions. How would having a canister shot not make the weapon better? Have it work like it currently does with out a weapons lock, with weapons lock it flys out to about 100-50m from the target then bursts open... now the weapon is actually useful at longer range.

While using the canister round method it would have a tighter round grouping than it currently does, making it more useful at range. While not using a lock it wouldn't change in it's current effectiveness.

[Y E O N N E]

Metus regem, on 30 March 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Let me restate what I suggested, and I'll make the relivenet part more easy to read...




While using the canister round method it would have a tighter round grouping than it currently does, making it more useful at range. While not using a lock it wouldn't change in it's current effectiveness.

And what part about "spread damage sucks" do you not understand? The only way that is useful is if you bump the damage considerably, at which point it replaces the AC/10 because it has the same effectiveness across its entire bracket. With a damage bump on a pure shotgun, it carves a role as a punchy, short-range weapon that can sand blast out to mid range. It is good in one place and gimpy in others, your idea is either flat-out gimpy or too good.

[Metus regem]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

And what part about "spread damage sucks" do you not understand? The only way that is useful is if you bump the damage considerably, at which point it replaces the AC/10 because it has the same effectiveness across its entire bracket. With a damage bump on a pure shotgun, it carves a role as a punchy, short-range weapon that can sand blast out to mid range. It is good in one place and gimpy in others, your idea is either flat-out gimpy or too good.

The LB-10X was meant to replace the standard AC/10, that's the whole lore behind it... It is also why FASA made all other IS LB's more bulky when they were added.

As for the grouping with Canister shot, I was thinking more akin to ASRM/4 or ASRM/6's for spread pattern. So still a little spread damage, but not pin point either... a happy medium. This wouldn't make the LB-10X a joke at anything beyond 200m, as it should be viable out to it's optimal range. Is wanting the LB-10X (and all LB's for that mater) to be viable such a horrible thing to want? I mean with that canister system maybe PGI could finally get rid of the place holder cAC/s finally....

[Y E O N N E]

Metus regem, on 30 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

The LB-10X was meant to replace the standard AC/10, that's the whole lore behind it... It is also why FASA made all other IS LB's more bulky when they were added.

As for the grouping with Canister shot, I was thinking more akin to ASRM/4 or ASRM/6's for spread pattern. So still a little spread damage, but not pin point either... a happy medium. This wouldn't make the LB-10X a joke at anything beyond 200m, as it should be viable out to it's optimal range. Is wanting the LB-10X (and all LB's for that mater) to be viable such a horrible thing to want? I mean with that canister system maybe PGI could finally get rid of the place holder cAC/s finally....

I am trying to tell you that your concept either doesn't make the LB-10X viable or it makes it so viable that there is no reason for the AC/10 to remain a part of the game. I can't comment on post-patch 4s, but ASRM6 spread is still too much for 1 damage per pellet because that's about what you get now at 100 meters or so. That means damage has to go up but, unless you want lock and dumbfire to have differing values, it's going up for both modes which means increased effectiveness all around. That isn't what it needs. What it needs is a niche where it is the preferred option. Pure shotgun with a damage bump provides that for brawl builds while giving them just enough DPS at mid range to duck some heads on approach.