81 replies to this topic

[ShadowFire]

If you want a few words from lore try;

"Terror had set in, not just for himself, but for his whole lance. How could he have thought they might prevail? The enemy Nightsky alone weighed as much as Russo's Enforcer and could out maneuver him. Not to mention that the Nightsky's depleted uranium tipped ax was enough to give any MechWarrior nightmares. " From "Imminent Crisis" by Randall N. Bills

Edited by ShadowFire, 29 March 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[Metus regem]

ShadowFire, on 29 March 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

If you want a few words from lore try;

"Terror had set in, not just for himself, but for his whole lance. How could he have thought they might prevail? The enemy Nightsky alone weighed as much as Russo's Enforcer and could out maneuver him. Not to mention that the Nightsky's depleted uranium tipped ax was enough to give any MechWarrior nightmares. " From "Imminent Crisis" by Randall N. Bills

An ax is a better mech weapon than a sword... You do not need to be as precise with your swing when using an ax when compared to swinging a sword... on top of that an ax has more kinetic energy than an sword due to the extra weight behind the impact point. Still not as good as a club/mace/maul/lance/pick, but an ax is a better choice than a sword.

[Snowbluff]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

3) Fragile and prone to shattering and still only mediocre against armor. The thrust was generally directed toward the gaps in the armor, not the armor itself, because it was still par less useful against the gothic plate itself than a good warhammer or military pick, and a lot more expensive to make and easier to break.

Ooh, a mech lance. Thinking about it, I bet on pointy, especially if you can aim at a weakpoint, a la half-swording or a pointy lance. Keep in mind the Battlemech armor is ablative to defend against little AP and HEAP type attacks, which probably isn't ideal against something with excessive levels of momentum. Melee weapons in BT would be made out of materials that are more resilient to direct shock instead.

Napkin math. A gauss round is 66.67 kg (1000 kg/15 rounds) and moves at 2000 m/s for 133333. An assault mech like a kodiak weights 100,000 kg (1 metric ton is 1000kg, x100) and moves at 17 m/s for about 1,700,000. It's the different between getting hit by a cannon and getting smashed by a train. The energy transfer isn't complete, but I bet a charging lance or sword thrust would do some damage. I wouldn't want to be in either mech though.

If you're in close, ideally you'd be jamming the sword or lance in the weakpoints and vents, but I don't know about the kind of dexterity a mech has. My complaint was about using a sword against man armor, which I think would do better than a quarterstaff against (but of course not a warpick or a spear as I mentioned).

Edited by Snowbluff, 29 March 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Snowbluff, on 29 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ooh, a mech lance. Thinking about it, I bet on pointy, especially if you can aim at a weakpoint, a la half-swording or a pointy lance. Keep in mind the Battlemech armor is ablative to defend against little AP and HEAP type attacks, which probably isn't ideal against something with excessive levels of momentum. Melee weapons in BT would be made out of materials that are more resilient to direct shock instead.

Napkin math. A gauss round is 66.67 kg (1000 kg/15 rounds) and moves at 2000 m/s for 133333. An assault mech like a kodiak weights 100,000 kg (1 metric ton is 1000kg, x100) and moves at 17 m/s for about 1,700,000. It's the different between getting hit by a cannon and getting smashed by a train. The energy transfer isn't complete, but I bet a charging lance or sword thrust would do some damage. I wouldn't want to be in either mech though.

If you're in close, ideally you'd be jamming the sword or lance in the weakpoints and vents, but I don't know about the kind of dexterity a mech has. My complaint was about using a sword against man armor, which I think would do better than a quarterstaff against (but of course not a warpick or a spear as I mentioned).

against gothic plate, the thrusting sword was mildly effective. Honestly at that point your staff is largely out of the running, tbh. I used to use baseball bats on sugarloaf helms for SCA demos.

Of course guns went and changed the whole equation. Your Gothic plate was all but impervious to melee weapons of it's day, and crossbows, etc.

A primitive matchlock though, punched right through it.

[Alistair Winter]

Beyond the initial question of "Why are you talking about the most effective medieval close combat weapon for a giant walking robot a thousand years in the future", I'll just point out the obvious:

The physics of 80 kilogram humans in thin plate armour, carrying axes, does not translate perfectly to the physics of 100 ton machines made almost entirely of metal. You can't do a 1:1 comparison of the cutting power of a 15th century halberdier and a 31st century Axman. And mechs don't even die from the same things as humans do.

Also, anyone who knows anything about swords will know that katana is the greatest weapon that ever was and ever will be, and it can cut through solid blocks of Damascus steel without losing its edge, it's the preferred weapon of the Immortals and Tom Cruise, and thus, the Hatamoto-Chi is the mech we all need.

[Snowbluff]

Was it's folded 100 times? :/

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

against gothic plate, the thrusting sword was mildly effective. Honestly at that point your staff is largely out of the running, tbh. I used to use baseball bats on sugarloaf helms for SCA demos.

Of course guns went and changed the whole equation. Your Gothic plate was all but impervious to melee weapons of it's day, and crossbows, etc.

A primitive matchlock though, punched right through it.

neat

I kind of doubt the importance of heavier armors and early firearms. Crossbows were actually plenty effective against armor much earlier on. I don't think early firearms were good enough to shoot through some plate armors right away, but not everyone was decked out in full plate anyway.

Edited by Snowbluff, 29 March 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mech swords would have to be swung at incredible speeds for then to be remotely effecive. Axes and maces can be swung much slower and still carry a wallop because the center of gravity is near the impact site.

A mech that could swing a sword fast enough to be effective would need incredible dexterity and lightning-fast actuators. Not likely.
You are more likely to see Mechs with very torquey arms with great strength behind their slower and more deliberate movements.

Also, swords have to strike the target correctly (correct angle of impact and correct draw motion for the stroke) to work properly and not shatter, whereas a mace or axe just has to hit something to smash it. If you just smack something with a sword, the sword breaks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Snowbluff, on 29 March 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Was it's folded 100 times? :/

neat

I kind of doubt the importance of heavier armors and early firearms. Crossbows were actually plenty effective against armor much earlier on. I don't think early firearms were good enough to shoot through some plate armors right away, but not everyone was decked out in full plate anyway.

against earlier and soft armor, yes.

Heavy armor?

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

against earlier and soft armor, yes.

Heavy armor?

Now, that isn't a terribly powerful Xbow
Longbows have had higher draw weight

Can't comment on years, however, but winch driven Xbows would be notably more powerful (assuming they actually need the winch)

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 29 March 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

Now, that isn't a terribly powerful Xbow
Longbows have had higher draw weight

Can't comment on years, however, but winch driven Xbows would be notably more powerful (assuming they actually need the winch)

a lot goes into the differences. Heavy, winch drawn crossbows also were not terribly common, compared to the one shown here which was very common in it's era. Also while the Longbow is an impressive weapon, it too is subject to a lot of myth bloat.
http://www.historiav...beschuss1-e.htm



But I'm sure you'll argue, regardless, because well, it's you.

Also, representative of a stout longbow (which was good for volley fire, less so for "aimed" archery) vs early, pre gothic plate. Minimal penetration (though it would still be quite unpleasant). heavy crenelated plate, such as gothic plate? Far less effect.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 March 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[Tyler Durden]

CDLord HHGD, on 29 March 2017 - 05:54 AM, said:

Yeah, more like a thin club.

So it's not a Fat Club?

http://orig08.devian...991-dagufhy.png

[Snowbluff]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

against earlier and soft armor, yes.

Heavy armor?

Jesus, only 80 pounds? Kind of a crummy crossbow if you ask me. Of course, I'm no expert, but I expect the heavier ones would be the ones used against knights.

EDIT: Looked up some stronger crossbows. I'll hand it to plate armor, it seems to hold up very well.

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

a lot goes into the differences. Heavy, winch drawn crossbows also were not terribly common, compared to the one shown here which was very common in it's era. Also while the Longbow is an impressive weapon, it too is subject to a lot of myth bloat.

But I'm sure you'll argue, regardless, because well, it's you.

Also, representative of a stout longbow (which was good for volley fire, less so for "aimed" archery) vs early, pre gothic plate. Minimal penetration (though it would still be quite unpleasant). heavy crenelated plate, such as gothic plate? Far less effect.

This. 80 pound bows would be like the crossbow used in the earlier vid. Longbow were great


Also, some people spout **** about swords shattering if you don't hit with them right.
If I said I hit someone with the haft of a mace, would it spontaneously combust? No. That would be stupid.
For chopping, there is an optimal point of concussion. It's high for an axe, like directly on the head. Good for chopping.
Swords are different. The way I see it, you have 3 general ways to injure someone with a sword (ignoring mordhau, which makes it a club and ignores the properties of the blade): Slash, chop, and stab. Different swords are designed differently, optimizing different kinds of injury.
For example, type XV longsword here

Very pointy, optimized mostly for maneuvering to stab a weak spot. As a result, it's not as good for chopping; the point of percussion is lower on the blade..

Now, would a mech size version of this explode when a mech hatchet wouldn't? Of course not. The chop would be more difficult to pull of, but we wouldn't expect it to break anymore than a hatchet during a chop, or snap anymore than a mech lance would during a stab. Slashing is useless, barring the brittle, ablative armor of the mechs having weird properties (maybe it's good against exposed myomer?).

Edited by Snowbluff, 29 March 2017 - 06:58 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Snowbluff, on 29 March 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Jesus, only 80 pounds? Kind of a crummy crossbow if you ask me. Of course, I'm no expert, but I expect the heavier ones would be the ones used against knights.

EDIT: Looked up some stronger crossbows. I'll hand it to plate armor, it seems to hold up very well.

This. 80 pound bows would be like the crossbow used in the earlier vid. Longbow were great


Also, some people spout **** about swords shattering if you don't hit with them right.
If I said I hit someone with the haft of a mace, would it spontaneously combust? No. That would be stupid.
For chopping, there is an optimal point of concussion. It's high for an axe, like directly on the head. Good for chopping.
Swords are different. The way I see it, you have 3 general ways to injure someone with a sword (ignoring mordhau, which makes it a club and ignores the properties of the blade): Slash, chop, and stab. Different swords are designed differently, optimizing different kinds of injury.
For example, type XV longsword here

Very pointy, optimized mostly for maneuvering to stab a weak spot. As a result, it's not as good for chopping; the point of percussion is lower on the blade..

Now, would a mech size version of this explode when a mech hatchet wouldn't? Of course not. The chop would be more difficult to pull of, but we wouldn't expect it to break anymore than a hatchet during a chop, or snap anymore than a mech lance would during a stab. Slashing is useless, barring the brittle, ablative armor of the mechs having weird properties (maybe it's good against exposed myomer?).

Yes and no about the breakage. Heck almost every legend has the hero breaking his blade, for a reason. It's simple physics. Long thing plane of metal is going to be easier to break. Especially if it's going to be hard enough to pierce heavy armor (which they really are MEH at doing at the best of time). Flex is important in a good sword, but it's a fine balance. And once you start trying to wedge it into heavy, thicker, less flexible armor? It tends to go less well for the sword than the armor.

Did they shatter when you looked at them? No. But how many "legendary" swords ever faced off against heavy plate armor? Since all the legends happened either pre gothic plate, or in countries without a culture of heavy metal armor (japan, mongolia, etc).

Also did you really just compare a thin flat metal shaft of a sword blade with a big thick metal haft on a mace? (wooden hafts are a different story, but also a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to replace)


And seriously... did you really just compare a thick, ROUND metal shaft (structurally stronger than a flat plane) with a thin, flat blade?

Oh kay kay, then.


Strong as ****!

This? Not nearly as strong.

[RumpledMunky]

I've always thought of swords on mechs as more akin to giant cold chisels(basically a long flat chisel) than an actual sword. A big heavy blunt edge that does more crushing than cutting.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Never would I see the day where I see a bunch of battletech nerds talking and debating about medieval weapons and their effectiveness on metal plate armor. With that being said...



Bardiche is best polearm. Why? Because you might never know when you need an over sized axe blade mounted on a pole to terrorize the peasant population.

[Bishop Steiner]

RumpledMunky, on 29 March 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

I've always thought of swords on mechs as more akin to giant cold chisels(basically a long flat chisel) than an actual sword. A big heavy blunt edge that does more crushing than cutting.

long and (even comparatively) thin edge are a TERRIBLE surface for transferring energy. mass distribution is atrocious, regardless of "thin and sharp" or "chisel".

[Snowbluff]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yes and no about the breakage. Heck almost every legend has the hero breaking his blade, for a reason. It's simple physics. Long thing plane of metal is going to be easier to break. Especially if it's going to be hard enough to pierce heavy armor (which they really are MEH at doing at the best of time). Flex is important in a good sword, but it's a fine balance. And once you start trying to wedge it into heavy, thicker, less flexible armor? It tends to go less well for the sword than the armor.

Did they shatter when you looked at them? No. But how many "legendary" swords ever faced off against heavy plate armor? Since all the legends happened either pre gothic plate, or in countries without a culture of heavy metal armor (japan, mongolia, etc).

Also did you really just compare a thin flat metal shaft of a sword blade with a big thick metal haft on a mace? (wooden hafts are a different story, but also a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to replace)

And seriously... did you really just compare a thick, ROUND metal shaft (structurally stronger than a flat plane) with a thin, flat blade?

Oh kay kay, then.

This? Not nearly as strong.

O f course I wasn't comparing them. I said it would be stupid if a mace were to break if "you swung it the wrong way."

So Mr. World's strongest man, now many swords have you shatters into a million pieces? :l
Sword steel is actually springy, rather than hard. This makes it resilient. You can bend or dent them, or maybe even chip them, but actually snapping one is kind of incredibly difficult.
Take this ****** video of a guy using a longsword *incorrectly*.

They puncture the plate armor AND the sword didn't break.

Here's a video of a huge German guy beating up a katana.

Despite Jeorge being 6 feet tall and a gajillion pounds, he's able to hammer the katana (often harder and more susceptible to bending) back into working order.

Arnold The Governator, on 29 March 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

Never would I see the day where I see a bunch of battletech nerds talking and debating about medieval weapons and their effectiveness on metal plate armor. With that being said...

Bardiche is best polearm. Why? Because you might never know when you need an over sized axe blade mounted on a pole to terrorize the peasant population.

I like halberds.

Has some spike, has some pointy spear end, has some axe. :3

Edited by Snowbluff, 29 March 2017 - 09:36 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Snowbluff, on 29 March 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

O f course I wasn't comparing them. I said it would be stupid if a mace were to break if "you swung it the wrong way."

So Mr. World's strongest man, now many swords have you shatters into a million pieces? :l
Sword steel is actually springy, rather than hard. This makes it resilient. You can bend or dent them, or maybe even chip them, but actually snapping one is kind of incredibly difficult.
Take this ****** video of a guy using a longsword *incorrectly*.

They puncture the plate armor AND the sword didn't break.



I like halberds.

Has some spike, has some pointy spear end, has some axe. :3

Some are. Your belooved thrusting sword you've posted several times? Not so much. Katana and Gim Swords, later swords like rapiers and sabres (used in a time where armor was already obsolete).
Also, for the record, katana vs gothic plate? Again..much less successful.

But it's funny you got so #triggered you actualyl ignored the rest of my comment to focus on the one part that offends you...despite me specifically stating that swords didn't just shatter willy nilly.

Also, yes, bring springy steel blades against TANK armor and see how well it works. Since you know, THAT is what we are actualyl discussing, at the end of the day, and I have been using ancient armors and weapons as simple visual analogues.

Bravo.

[Bishop Steiner]

and back to your pet sword


Your thrusting sword... barely penetrating..when used on a thrust.

Which of course, Mech swords aren't doing.
Stay triggered my friend.

[Snowbluff]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Some are. Your belooved thrusting sword you've posted several times? Not so much. Katana and Gim Swords, later swords like rapiers and sabres (used in a time where armor was already obsolete).
Also, for the record, katana vs gothic plate? Again..much less successful.

But it's funny you got so #triggered you actualyl ignored the rest of my comment to focus on the one part that offends you...despite me specifically stating that swords didn't just shatter willy nilly.

Also, yes, bring springy steel blades against TANK armor and see how well it works. Since you know, THAT is what we are actualyl discussing, at the end of the day, and I have been using ancient armors and weapons as simple visual analogues.

Bravo.

You know, except you said stabbing the armor would damage the sword. Breaking them outright isn't something I know of actually happening. I don't even know where these legends of swords breaking comes from. Older steels?

As for mech scale combat, tell me how a hatchet is okay, and a lance is okay, but a sword isn't. We know that the hatchet won't break on a chop. We know a lance won't break on a stab. Why wouldn't a sword specifically for a mech not work?

I didn't ignore the rest of your post. I simply pointed out the comparison and moved on.

EDIT: Wow, ninja post. You know you are misrepresenting my point. It's not about it penetrating the old armor (that's stupid, incorrect use in that era, as I pointed out). Stabbing mech armor works in BT. I'm not the one who would be call triggered here, that's for sure.

Edited by Snowbluff, 29 March 2017 - 09:58 PM.