60 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Now I am going to go through the pain to get old windows games on my PC Gonna be fun though.

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

Intersting.

MWO
WoT
WoWS

are the three games I play the most, with MWO being far more than the other 2 combined and I think you and the OP both have good points.

I'm going to note... I LOVE the basic mechanics of WoT. The penetration, accuracy, damage, etc, is all IMO; very well done, in and of itself.

But the Tiering and MM does really ruin a lot of that. I was recently playing WoT with CK16 and made the same comment the OP did...it was just frustrating as heck to find myself matched up with Tier 5 tanks that I literally could not cause ANY damage too, no matter what. CK was even bouncing Premium Ammo (one of the features I HATE about WoT) of the back of this particular tank.

Simply put..could you imagine being in an MWO tournament... and the last 2 mechs standing were a Light and an Assault were facing off for the WC..... and the Light Mech simply could not damage the Assault mech, no matter what.

What kind of crapstorm would brew?

That said, while I play Low to Low Mid Tier on WoWS, I find it to be a very different experience overall, and in fact, if it wasn't for the lore aspect of MWO, I might actually play WoWS a lot more than MWO.

But after playing these, or any number of other F2P games.. I just want to laugh myself to tears anytime someones whines about the grind or MM here.

That said...if one removed the horrible tiering/MM system of WoT...I would love to see a MW title put together using a version of MoT or WoWS style combat mechanics.

Warthunder does it better IMO. I know WoT has penetration values and such but the whole HP deal with WoT makes me prefer warthunder.

[Bishop Steiner]

Templar Dane, on 29 March 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Warthunder does it better IMO. I know WoT has penetration values and such but the whole HP deal with WoT makes me prefer warthunder.

It might be, my exposure to Warthunder was only on the aircraft, and only then for a hot minute. I try not to comment on games I realyl haven't played.

[Anjian]

Tiering has a lot of functional advantages and one of that is that it separates the newbs from the vets. It also adds a structure to the game, and an infrastructure to balance with.

When you have a single tier with 300 vehicles, the problem of that you have to balance all 300 against each other. When a game is young, you only have 5, then 10, then 20 vehicles, this is not hard to balance everything in a single tier. But when the content balloons, so does does the complexity of the balance.

In WoWs for example, you may have 200 ships, but a Tier 7 destroyer only needs to be balanced against 5 other Tier 7 destroyers on the tree, plus a few others that are premiums.

Tiering also means that players must agree and accept that inherent imbalance, and Wargaming, along with other gaming companies, mine the value of imbalance as a way to keep things interesting. When your lore is based on historical, you cannot assume things are going to be equal, because things were never equal. Your strategy and tactics on each game will differ. You are in a heavy tank and in the highest tier of the match, then you now have leadership and carry responsibility. With the most powerful tank in the group, you have to take charge. But same match, but your heavy tank is now two tiers down, your role changes from leadership to support. You support the higher tier tanks.

Games that look flat on the outside that appear to be single tier, like many MOBAs, games like Fractured Space, even MWO or War Robots, actually end up having a second and hidden tier structure based on player rankings. That's why MWO has that Tier 1 to 5. In War Robots, which on surface appears to be single tiered, actually has Bronze I, II, III, Silver I, II, III, Gold, Diamond and Expert tiers.

When you add respawns based on presets to a tiered system, now things get a little complicated. You are going to be tiered on your highest tier vehicle, or the average of your three highest in the preset, a system War Thunder uses. That means if you lose your highest tiered vehicle, the next one you have to deploy is the lower tiered one. But of course, you don't have to throw your best at the moment, in games like these, there are always sacrificial vehicles used that are meant to be spent on caps, before you bring the heavy hitters.

In comparison to WoWs or WoT, where they --- because of the single spawn --- attempt to make every vehicle unique to each other, in a respawn system, you can have multiple vehicles in the preset having similar qualities, one to replace the other when lost. In my War Thunder US tank preset, I got a Sherman M4A2, Sherman M4, Sherman M4A1 all ready to go, and in the Russian preset, a T-34 Model 1942, a T-34 Model 1941 and a T-34 premium ready to go. The respawn system makes redundancies not only useful but also necessary for replacement. For that matter, I also have multiple Panzer IVs (H, J, premium,G) which are also supported by StuG G, and on a higher tier, I got two Tiger 1s and a Tiger P, supported by three Panthers, still higher, I got Tiger II Henschel, Tiger II Porsche, and the premium Tiger II with a diesel engine, supported by two JagdPanthers. In aircraft I got a preset in one tier that is BF-190F4, F4 Trop, F2, and early FW-190, and in a US plane preset, I got like three or four different Airacobras.

That also makes War Thunder look grindy because you may end up grinding multiple vehicles with similar capabilities and close to each tier (Panzer IV F2 at 3.7, Panzer IV G and J at 4.3, Panzer IV H at 4.7, for example). On the other hand, what's the rush, its not any more fun when you uptier. I used to play at Tier 5 (BR 7.0 and plus) in War Thunder but now I just stick to BR 3.7 to 4.7. When you reach BR 7.0, you are now facing early jets, post war, Cold War to Vietnam War tanks, and what's the fun in that. (One of War Thunder's most popular YouTubers, sticks to around 3.7 to 4.7).

The same thing with WoT and WoWs. You don't need to be at the top tier to have the most fun. Lower tiers can be as much fun and generally from observation, they are more fun. For World of Warships, the best tiers is around 6 to 8, which is also where the most historic ships can be found (Bismarck at Tier 8, Scharnhorst at Tier 7, etc,.) When you reach Tier 10, there are only few historic ships left, and you are mostly faced with ships that are only designed in paper, maybe laid down but never finished, or post war. Tier 9 and 10 WoT you see a lot of these post war and paper tanks as well, like German Leopard, which is what a 1960 tank? Or paper tanks like E75 and E100. For that matter, ranked play or league play tends to be using Tier 7 or 8.

[Anjian]

Sorry for the too long a text.

If its among the tank games, WoT, Armored Warfare, or War Thunder GF, my vote goes to WTGF, for reasons that are best not explained, but felt.

It just looks freaking awesome.

[Shifty McSwift]

Johnny Z, on 29 March 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

the over crowded mechbay/lab or what ever that mess that should be a first person mechbay is called.

Am I the only whose computer runs like a slug while in the mechbay? The mechbay is more GPU intensive than the game itself. I don't care if it is a first person mechbay or an advanced spreadsheet I just wish it didn't make my computer have an anxiety attack.

[SpectreHD]

I've been with WoT since Closed Beta and I agree. The lower tiers before tier 5 sucks hard because it is so poorly balanced.

El Bandito, on 29 March 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Just because there is something even worse out there, doesn't mean what we have here cannot be improved.
I always get my arse kicked by my wife whenever she complains about pollution around our home, and I point out that people in the slums suffer even worse.

MWO matchmaking, PSR system, cross faction balance, and depending on the skill tree new values even the grind will need improvements.

And WoT does all of those worse.

In terms of matchmaking, WoT has Random or what it thinks it is "random" mainly because playing solo random is not like here because players can platoon (i.e. group queue in MWO) and play against solo randoms. This skews the "random" aspect of random matches. In MWO, group and solo matchmaking are separate.

PSR system? WoT has none whatsoever. So very good players can play against very bad players. And with the "random" matchmaking and platooning, matches are always skewed. Very rarely are there balanced teams. Heck, vehicle classes aren't even balanced and they are now only working on it.

[Alistair Winter]

I agree that it's good relative to its competitors. But how many big F2P games with vehicular combat are there? I feel like there's almost no competition.

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 30 March 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

I agree that it's good relative to its competitors. But how many big F2P games with vehicular combat are there? I feel like there's almost no competition.

There is Warthunder.

[lazytopaz]

MWO has amazing "feel" of the fight/battle and just gets into you when you drop down some big mech while he's exploding in a fan of sparks and black smoke slowly stumbling into the ground. Or when you successfully spearhead an assault, go over the hill through a smoke and go in guns blazing ... and somehow manage to see the end of the match.
Quite often leaves you with your heart pounding and people cheering for you (well not that often in my case but happened at least once that I remember).
Next great thing about this game is Mechlab. This is IMHO a very important part of the game that I think inherently taps into what most men have/do/want to do. Tinkering around, tuning up stuff, experimenting, this thing just taps into that really well.

I really wish PGI would expand that aspect of the game even further with additional customization like being able to freely place AMS hardpoints or swap around existing hardpoints to different body sections or customize the type of cockpit, gyros and additional different armour/structure types. This game just really does well that tinkering part of the game which IMO just should be expanded upon, upgraded/taken further.

Battling is great as well maybe it should be slower more clunkier but still feels great and gives a lot of fun.

And has exactly spot on lenght 5 to 10 min. Sometimes when I'm on my lunch break at work I drop for a quick 2-3 matches to relax between chewing on my sandwich and I can go back to work while I still can feel adrenaline being pumped into my veins after a close match on HPG or a shootout in Canyon.

I really hate in other multiplayer games the fact that sometimes you have to go through 20 min stomp which from time to time you know it's gonna be stomp from the get go. Especially MOBAs. When I'm 20 min into the game I usually can tell we're gonna loose this or not ... and theres very little you can do about it bcs it can easily snowball for a team.

Whilst in MWO if we get stomped.. we get stomped and it ends shortly afterwards. Up to the point of breaking some records like 2 min game win. Not including a situation where one of the teams shoots their VIP in the back just to finish the match even quicker ;D

But every other aspect of the game feels lack luster bcs it's just a basic team deathmatch all the time at the same group of maps over and over. And that's that.

This game got me hooked heavily. 1.3k hours on a steam counter should be saying something.
And I reaaally love to play it. I'm so excited for new tech. PGI knows how to recover after bad blunder like skill tree postponing.
Sometimes I think they are rainmen. ********... but at the same time geniuses.

This game has a very hard entry point and one of the core aspects of the game which is mechlab is not really available to fresh players. At the start of your game you just don't have enough CBills and not everything is explained... or explained in a simplest easily understandable form. So I think PGI should cater more to the new players and make it easier for them to get into the juicy parts.

I've never played WoT or any of those other "similiar" games so I can't form any opinion outside MWO. I just heard those are quite grindy as well. Well it's F2P market so go figure.

[Alistair Winter]

El Bandito, on 30 March 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

There is Warthunder.

Yes, there is. There are other good ones. But they are surprisingly few. And the bad ones are surprisingly bad, in my view.

[Anjian]

For vehicular combat, quite a few.

Obviously the biggest is World of Tanks. Big enough that it can be considered among the top five F2P games around the world in all categories, for population and revenue. During peak times, several hundreds of thousands are simultaneously logged in.

Everyone else is a midget compared to the elephant in the room, including War Thunder and WoT's sibling World of Warships. World of Warplanes is considered a disaster with population only in the hundreds simultaneous.

For space combat, this has to be broader but still falls within the context, considering many fans of 'vehicular combat' actually move around between spaceship, World War 2, modern warfare, and robots.

For space ship we have

EVE Online (considered as such despite being an MMO). It joins the F2P category since November of 2016.
Elite Dangerous
Fractured Space
Dreadnought (still in development but playable in public)
Star Conflict
Star Citizen (development)
EVE Valkyrie

Tanks include
War Thunder Ground Forces
World of Tanks
Armored Warfare

Ships include
World of Warships
War Thunder Naval Forces (in development)
Gunsteel (alpha)
Steel Ocean

Aircraft include
World of Warplanes
War Thunder

Miscellaneous:
Cross Out --- Basically what happens when War Thunder meets Mad Max.

Robot (PC) ---
Mechwarrior Online
Robocraft

Android/iOS
There is plenty here but many are bad. But two stand out from the rest:
World of Tanks Blitz
War Robots, formerly Walking War Robots.

For something to be considered vehicular combat, it must not have FPS characteristics. This definition is important in the market sense because there is a large market of players out there who do not want FPS style PvE or PvP play.

Edited by Anjian, 30 March 2017 - 01:50 AM.

[PyckenZot]

I've been saying just the same thing for years now. Compared to most F2P shooters, MWO is a nice alternative to the typical way of doing things in the genre. Not saying that things can't be improved. But all in all, I still find it a rare gem.

oldradagast, on 29 March 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

It's funny. I also play World of Warships, and I consider that a superior game in nearly every way to MWO. Aside from the overall production quality and actual playtesting - complete with the company listening to feedback - the game play is superior, the combat vehicles can actually take a pounding vs. falling apart in a few seconds, and people actual sail around the map vs. hiding behind rocks all day.
[...]."

Low TTK is a huge part of this.

[...]

Now, where I do agree that WoWS is a vast improvement over WoT and I agree Wargaming is better at communication (they do have more income though) I don't agree with many of your other points. Players play fairly similar in WoWS as in MWO, you have the rambos, the campers, the teamplayes and the cheatcallers. But especially in TTK things are very similar to MWO. Play the correct ship and know how to play the game and you can "citadel" or "torpbomb" your enemies into oblivion. Very similar to the MWO metamechs. Come to think about it, WoWS is so much fun because it is so alike MWO. Sadly it inherited the WoT grinding hell,..

Edited by PyckenZot, 30 March 2017 - 01:56 AM.

[Dino Might]

Anjian, on 30 March 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

Aircraft include
World of Warplanes
War Thunder

Oh no he didn't....

Are we just talking arcade games here? Because you left out the actual simulators:

Digital Combat Simulator
P3D
X-plane
FSX

Of those 4, only DCS counts as a F2P* flight combat game

*Yes, the game itself is free, with two free aircraft (SU-25T and TF-51D)
With the SU-25T, you can ground pound to your hearts content. Vikhrs, 25MPUs, 25Ls, KGMU pods, rockets galore, and the R-60M and R-73 for some air-to-air defense.

If you have any desire to play a real flight sim that is combat oriented, DCS is your game. Beware, it is ultimately possible to spend more $ there than on MWO.

I have, since I began two years ago, bought an entire control setup (HOTAS, rudder pedals, trackIR), and almost every module (~$50 each). But, for the price of each aircraft, you get a professional flight and systems model, down to the gnat's a** detail. And you have it forever. The game certainly isn't going anywhere, but if it did, you have all the mission editing tools and assets for making single player or multiplayer games. There are no dedicated servers other than the ones players create. There is no game balance other than that which the players create. DCS is a giant sandbox, and the way to play it is entirely up to the players.

The dynamic campaign called "Blue Flag" is THE example that MWO should use for faction warfare. Large-scale battles of up to 26 v 26. Multiple objectives spread over a huge map, so you can go headlong into the front-line battle, or flank around and pick up secondary objectives. There is something to do for everyone, from single players to large, coordinated units.

The only thing that puts a lot of people off is the need to actually learn how to fly and fight your aircraft. It's not point and click. For instance, in the A-10C, to shoot a SAM, I need to select my TGP, slew to target, designate target, visual ID to determine if I think I can outrange it, select Maverick, slew seeker head to TGP target, lock seeker head to target, fire. Now, think about doing that 6 times in less than a minute when you have friendly and enemy fighters in the area, your radar warning receiver constantly buzzing, and surface to air missiles popping off at you or at friendlies all around. It's something that never fails to entertain, and it's never a mind numbing grind. There is no "progression" other than your skillset, which is the most rewarding progression of all. Instead of unlocking the super tier 100 awesomeo tank, I have unlocked the knowledge and skill to plan out a full strike sortie to wipe out an entire airbases surface to air threats.

I know I keep pitching this game to the wrong crowd, but I got into it because of someone from MWO, and I've gotten a few others interested as well. The more the merrier, and if you think it's something you might like to try, then shoot me a PM.

Check out some of the amazing fan-made videos, and recognize they are all in-game footage:

[Anjian]

That is good to know.

[Zieten]

Anjian, on 29 March 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

They wanted to add artillery vehicles --- more content --- so they added an artillery mechanic.

Except that proved to be a cancer mechanic.

Which leads to the second lesson of the day, which World of Warships has learned quickly.

Balancing Cancer Mechanics does not change that the Cancer Mechanic is still a Cancer Mechanic. No matter if its already "balanced", no matter even if its nerfed to underpoweredness. Cancer Mechanic is still Cancer Mechanic.

Well, you're wrong. Artillery has been in WoT since beta.

Edited by Zieten, 30 March 2017 - 04:12 AM.

[Dino Might]

I've done WoWs, and considered venturing into WoTs, but the premium ammo nonsense really convinced me to not even bother.

WoWs is fun for a while, and I realize how much of a sucker I am for grind & acquire games (spent plenty of time on MMOs in the past), but after some point, it becomes stale. You get that ship you've been pining over. You play it. It's nice, but there's not enough to it beyond that initial excitement to keep it interesting.

The most fun thing in WoWs is taking a Gneisenau through the strait in the map Two Brothers to rush the enemy base when your whole team is calling you an idiot, and you end up torping two CAs and sinking their carrier before you go down. Anything else is just kind of boring after playing the same maps with the same tactics over and over and over. One thing I like about WoWs is the RNG factor used and the health of the ships, tending to reward more careful shooting over the duration of the fight and requiring more than blind luck to score a kill (with the exception of magazine hits - those suck).

One day, I hope arcade style instant action / arena battle games get rid of the leveling aspect that rewards more experienced players with better equipment. Worst thing any of these games can have, because it makes the game no fun for new players because they can't win, and no fun for experienced players, because there's not much challenge anymore. I still can't understand why people who are really good at the game always jump into the best mech or tank or plane or whatever it may be. Why bother if you can just click your instant win button?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Dino Might, on 30 March 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

One day, I hope arcade style instant action / arena battle games get rid of the leveling aspect that rewards more experienced players with better equipment. Worst thing any of these games can have, because it makes the game no fun for new players because they can't win, and no fun for experienced players, because there's not much challenge anymore. I still can't understand why people who are really good at the game always jump into the best mech or tank or plane or whatever it may be. Why bother if you can just click your instant win button?

I'd say its habit really. Before you become great you were not too great, so you went through the ranks finding better mechs/etc that fit your playstyle best, you trained with them and got better over time, eventually you find yourself a great player and you play with a familiar vehicle you've grown to enjoy.

Now once you get there you hope for others at your skill level to fight for a challenge, but you know if you bring a weaker mech you won't have a fair fight against another at your skill level, so you lose your chance for a good fight. By bringing a weaker mech you make battling players of lower skill more challenging, but its still not a good fight, you're just pounding away at someone who has a massive advantage but doesn't have the ability to use it well.

Basically its like an Olympic athlete going against other Olympic athletes compared to an Olympic Athlete with his arms tied behind his back and shoelaces tied together going against little league. One is a real fight while the other is more of a mockery of your opponent showing that you can demolish them with ease no matter how disadvantaged you are.

I do agree with the lack of need for older experienced players getting more than new players. I loved the old days of FPS shooters in which everyone had all weapons unlocked or there were classes that you picked ingame each respawn and the only difference between players was how good they could exploit the mechanics of the game and how well they could aim and time shots, especially ones that required leading and precision.

[Hunter Tseng]

There is still alot IMHO that can be improved for MWO, but I have to admit... concerning how imbalance the BT universe is in lore, PGI has the balance pretty close at the same time making the 2 sides with its distinct flavor while still trying to adhere to lore (somewhat loosely).
The balance in MWO is far more better than some of the other games, most notably WarThunder GF... seriously, there Russian Tanks are STRONK TANK!!!! xD
WarThunder is a more serious offender than WoT

[NRP]

I like tanks.

But I like mechs more.

So here I am.