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[InnerSphereNews]

Competitive Roundtable this Friday night with Russ Bullock and Developers!

Are you interested in the competitive scene, whether that be the official MechWarrior Online World Championship, or any of the great community-run leagues and tournaments?

Join us for a discussion on what's happening in the competitive world in 2017 and MWOWC2017!

When: Friday, March 31st at 6pm PDT, 9pm EDT, 1am UTC

Where: On NGNGtv at http://twitch.tv/ngngtv

[old man odin]

So my unit was asked to give our input on potential comp improvements the other day in preparation for this. These were some of the responses I collected:
---
Spectator Improvements:

• The team text in spectator mode is currently pretty hard to read, particularly the red. On streams when people move it gets even worse. The colour needs to be changed and maybe given a drop shadow or a border to give contrast it more with the background.
  
• It needs to be easier to select players and show their paper doll and loadout. Right now you've got to click on their mech (while their moving, you're zoom out, etc), you've got to enable the mouse pointer to do so which makes it a pain to move and hit enter then enable mouse control. Hot keys like alt+player number to bring up a specific player, a bindable key to cycle through all the players or even just one that works like targeting usually does (prioritizes whatever is nearest the center of the screen the cycling through whatever) would make it much easier to use.
  
• The player paper doll/loadout takes up too much of the screen with a lot of wasted space. If the unused space could be cut down it'd be great as having it and the other information up on screen means you hide much of the action behind it.
  
• The unused space could really be cropped out of the minimap as well in the spectator view. It shows a lot of out of bounds area for no reason. Even if it stayed the same size, focusing only on the actually useful sections of the map would make it easier to what is actually going on in the minimap. Same problem as when the mappening happened.
  
• Fix the spectator bugs, like when you switch between first and third person so that it actually shows who is dead and alive properly
  
• More spectator slots, giving options to streamers to keep it interesting.

Lobby Improvements:

• Make consumable refills free in lobbies, it's a big hindrance in practices (particularly small team sizes and 1v1s) and part of why the skill tree economy was problematic for comp players
  
• Give us a blind lances option so teams cannot see where their opponents are dropping.
  
• Making it easier to redrop matches is a big one. Let you be able to just agree to go back to the lobby without seeing the score screen, needing to die or disconnecting or whatever. Just a button or something both team commands can hit.
  
• No premium lobbies would be great but we understand why they do it.
  
• The ability to build mechs in lobbies would be great.

Game Improvements:

• FIX. THE *******. LODS. Jesus Polar is pure cancer because those ridges like to sketch the **** out.
  
• Fixing invisible walls on maps like HPG should be a priority as well, it's not a good look to watch people get screwed over in casted matches because of a large invisible wall.

Community Improvements:

• PGI should open a competitive section of the forums to make it easier to get people unfamiliar with the game into it. An obvious section to go first for recruitment threads, discussion, etc. Right now the only kind of competitive section is the community run events thing hidden as a sub-sub forum or something and recruitment threads are scattered in many sections where people looking for a comp team aren't going to think to go.
  
• I've run into people while recruiting who are completely oblivious to MRBC despite being competitive minded. They really should up their promotion of it. Run announcements for comp stuff on home screen?

Match Maker Improvements:

• Allow solo players to opt into group queue. Reduces wait time, improves match making. Atm if you have two well matched teams except one adds up to 11 it currently has to find a worse match. If you let solos play with groups it can just fill one person in there.
  
• Bring QP down to 8v8 for the same reason. Have Scouting as 4v4, QP as 8v8 and CW as 12v12.
  
• A return to ELO, or at least overhaul PSR to be zero sum

---
Just an editors note, I do think the Match Maker improvements are important for the game as a whole but ultimately offtopic for a competitive round table.

Edited by Odins Steed, 29 March 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[xeromynd]

Will there be comp team leaders involved?

If so:

How do comp team leaders get involved?
Who choses which leaders are involved & what are the critera for this choice?

Edited by xeromynd, 29 March 2017 - 04:24 PM.

[Bombadil]

xeromynd, on 29 March 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Will there be comp team leaders involved?

If so:

How do comp team leaders get involved?
Who choses which leaders are involved & what are the critera for this choice?

For this first competitive roundtable, leaders from various active competitive organizations including MRBC, RHoD, Star League, CWX 1v1, NBT and a few others have been invited to be on the Community Panel. Of course all are invited to the livestream and to participate via chat, as well as contribute to this thread which is being monitored by both PGI and said comp organization leaders.

[Mcgral18]

Perhaps a statement in regards to balance passes?
Are high end matches used as a benchmark for certain decisions?



...Can they be?
Balancing by Potato hasn't resulted in much success. In fact, it's gone full circle...

[BLOOD WOLF]

using the comp scene as a way to balance is not a good way to go about doing that.

[xeromynd]

-Ramrod-, on 29 March 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

[redacted]

Because god forbid this game has an active comp scene and a group of players that min/max within the current balance to figure out the best mech setups.

Also, your claims about resolution exploiting and aimbots are certainly strong. If you have video evidence of this, I suggest you post it or send it directly to PGI. Claiming that the whole MWO comp scene uses these exploits/cheats is certainly a bold claim. If it were true, it would certainly be a huge controversy in MWO's history!

[Bombadil]

Mcgral18, on 29 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Perhaps a statement in regards to balance passes?
Are high end matches used as a benchmark for certain decisions?



...Can they be?
Balancing by Potato hasn't resulted in much success. In fact, it's gone full circle...

MRBC recently interviewed PGI balance dev Chris Lowrey, who answers questions about balance in regards to the competitive scene. Should be out any day.

[-Ramrod-]

xeromynd, on 29 March 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

Because god forbid this game has an active comp scene and a group of players that min/max within the current balance to figure out the best mech setups.

Also, your claims about resolution exploiting and aimbots are certainly strong. If you have video evidence of this, I suggest you post it or send it directly to PGI. Claiming that the whole MWO comp scene uses these exploits/cheats is certainly a bold claim. If it were true, it would certainly be a huge controversy in MWO's history!

I always hear that Best mech setup crap all the time. 1 Gauss 2 PPC...2 Gauss 1 PPC...any mech with a ballistic and energy hardpoint. Same platform over various mechs is not about the mech...its about the reliance on that platform of weapons. And the cheating thing....yea I've already sent in videos and made many reports...as well as other people I know. BTW its not a controversy because PGI tends to sweep it under the rug and hoping maybe it'll go away. But there's usually some ******* like me poking them to do their jobs that they promised to do but aren't living up to their end of the bargain. I'm not saying all comp people cheat of course not...and I am definitely not the best...never claimed i was...but usually there ends up being more cheating than people realize in comp groups and probably less than what ******** like me are saying. You're gonna have your Lance Armstrongs and Barry Bond's every so often.

Edited by -Ramrod-, 29 March 2017 - 04:52 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

-Ramrod-, on 29 March 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

No thanks. I'll take random pugs over 100% meta BS/resolution exploiting/cheating "I got to pwnz0rz eerebody and if you dont you suck/so salty/some other ******** meme insult" basement dwellers. But I ain't mad u^.^...it's just how it is .


The removal of Gauss and PPC would near about collapse any tournament...that's how bad it's gotten...

You are feeding the Reddit elitists' disdain for the MWO forums ("brown sea"). Most of the resolution and user.cfg "exploits" are very unsportsmanlike, but not necessarily against the TOS.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 29 March 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Do we really want the game balanced around PPC/GUass?

( I am not being serious by the way). I am more than interested in the comp scene and the expansion or improvement of it.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 29 March 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 March 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

Do we really want the game balanced around PPC/GUass?

( I am not being serious by the way). I am more than interested in the comp scene and the expansion or improvement of it.

It has been since House of Lords exploited the hell out of PPC + Gauss PopTarts in the pre-Clan era which got PPCs, Gauss Rifles and Jump Jets nerfed.

[xeromynd]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 March 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

Do we really want the game balanced around PPC/GUass?

( I am not being serious by the way). I am more than interested in the comp scene and the expansion or improvement of it.

I genuinely don't understand where you guys are getting the impression that they're discussing balance during this Roundtable. The title says they're discussing "the comp scene, MWOWC, and community run leagues and tournaments."

[CainenEX]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 March 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

using the comp scene as a way to balance is not a good way to go about doing that.

Actually it is.
Read some articles you might learn something.

http://www.gamasutra...eo_.php?print=1

Feel free to disagree.

[EgoSlayer]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 March 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

using the comp scene as a way to balance is not a good way to go about doing that.

Sorry, but you're completely wrong. You have to balance based on the comp tier because they are the ones that find and utilize what becomes OP/Meta. Ignoring comp as a balance foundation is tantamount to having no balance at all.

[Y E O N N E]

I look forward to this round table.

[Mcgral18]

xeromynd, on 29 March 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

I genuinely don't understand where you guys are getting the impression that they're discussing balance during this Roundtable. The title says they're discussing "the comp scene, MWOWC, and community run leagues and tournaments."

Balance is integral to the comp scene
They kinda go hand in hand...like if you see the same 4 chassis' in every single match which is played...some others might need buffs


Same goes for weapons. All those isSLs we see in action...

[BLOOD WOLF]

CainenEX, on 29 March 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

Actually it is.
Read some articles you might learn something.

http://www.gamasutra...eo_.php?print=1

Feel free to disagree.

EgoSlayer, on 29 March 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

Sorry, but you're completely wrong. You have to balance based on the comp tier because they are the ones that find and utilize what becomes OP/Meta. Ignoring comp as a balance foundation is tantamount to having no balance at all.

xeromynd, on 29 March 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

I genuinely don't understand where you guys are getting the impression that they're discussing balance during this Roundtable.

Ask Egoslayer, and Cainen.


Also linking a Article tells me nothing about balancing from a comp perspective. Especially when the comp scene Omits builds, mechs, and gameplay styles. At least from what I understood from certain peoples post.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 29 March 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[DaFrog]

Edward Hazen, on 29 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

It has been since House of Lords exploited the hell out of PPC + Gauss PopTarts in the pre-Clan era which got PPCs, Gauss Rifles and Jump Jets nerfed.

not nerfed. Pilot a night gyr and get back to me about poptarts being nerfed...

[CainenEX]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 March 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

Also linking a Article tells me nothing about balancing from a comp perspective. Especially when the comp scene Omits builds, mechs, and gameplay styles. At least from what I understood from certain peoples post.

I've been part of the "comp scene" since 2016. I'm not a grizzeled vet but i can assume i have a basic understanding of the game. yes you are right to say that "Omits builds, mechs, and gameplay styles". So what does that mean? It means that you aren't going to see things that do not work. How is this determined? Through constant practice and testing by those teams. These are the guys that have spent a lot of time understanding and mastering the game.
*le sigh*
Seriously you need to do some reading here and not be ******* lazy.

Quote

Balance in Competition

Historically, most competitive games have been, more or less, "symmetrical" games --games like chess or go, where each player starts out with exactly the same powers at his fingertips. This is nice, because at least then you know the powers are balanced between the two players. However, if you were designing chess, you'd still have to worry about the individual pieces being balanced. Yes, the queen is quite obviously more powerful than the rook, but the downside is that there's only one of her.
The idea of games with symmetrical forces has largely fallen out of favor in the era of video games, both for good and bad reasons. Some of the worst reasons sound like "players expect asymmetrical forces" or "more stuff equals better game". Some of the best reasons come from people like game designer and Street Fighter tournament player David Sirlin. In his article Balancing Multiplayer Games, he describes a scale, with symmetrical games on the left and asymmetrical games on the right.
RTSes are usually on the far right, fighting games not quite as far to the right. FPS games often are located toward the left, with class-based shooters being exceptions. He's careful to note that it isn't a qualitative statement to say that something is on either side; it's merely a matter of preference and how it works within the context of the game. However, I can say with confidence that the farther to the right on that scale your game goes, the more difficult balancing your game will be.
Compounding the problem of balance in games is the fact that a game can actually be balanced at the "professional" level, but imbalanced at the "intermediate" level. Meaning, sometimes a strategy will be way too powerful -- a dominant strategy -- at all levels of play except for the very highest.
Ideally, you want your game to be balanced at all levels, but for a moden video game of even average complexity, that's asking a ton. It's best to figure out what you want your game to be, and then focus your balance efforts towards that.
If you want your game to be competitively played, then focus most on the top-level players. Talk to the best players -- people who play tournaments (if you are so lucky to have tournaments for your game). If you have a high-score leader-board, contact the top people on the list and pick their brain. However, if you want it to be more of a "casual game", then hand the game to random people, even people who've never played a video game before, and see what they do with it. Tailor your balancing work around your audience.
To balance a game at very low levels of play -- for something like a party game, for example -- you need to make sure that everything in the game seems equally useful on the players' first few tries. It is less important, in this example, that after hundreds and hundreds of plays, everything still holds up. If a dominant strategy emerges after hundreds of plays in Mario Party, that's not much of a concern. Just so long as a dominant strategy isn't emerging after the first dozen or so plays, that's probably enough for such a game.

Source: http://www.gamasutra...eo_.php?print=1