44 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

The venerable Urbanmech, it's most effective with heavy energy builds. The 26-point alpha for the 3x ML + LPL deals better damage than the AC20, has better maximum DPS too, only at 10 tons that you don't have to sacrifice engine rating and shave armor, even allot MOAR tonnage you don't have for ammo. AC20 has slow projectile, and the lasers need only to direct the lasers with face time, it makes it a bit more forgiving -- miss 1 AC20 shell and that's 20 damage you wasted.

> AC2, only effective when massed, but at 6 tons each, getting 2 to make it a viable plinker, one should might as well get an AC10, it has better ammo/ton, and better PPFLD, albeit at the cost of shorter range and slower projectile. I found success with AC2 + 3x MG for a shredding build, but realistically that's just an improved MG array, more than anything.

> AC5 is a decent weapon, not too heavy or light, it has decent fire speed of 1.66s, two tons of ammunition is good, but not good alone, it is best paired with energy weapons still. For me, it's actually the best ballistic build above others, the UAC5 second. It's the perfect middle ground.

> UAC5 is the dakka, at +1 ton of the AC5, one can shoot twice as fast with the ability to jam. The increase of tonnage means less ammo and less lasers to piggy back from, and the increased fire-rate means it chews through it's already less ammo faster. And should the RNG god says "**** you in particular", and you don't have laser backups because you allotted for ammo, you're gonna have a bad time.

> AC10 has good ammo/ton, good ppfld, but it's at 12-tons. To put that into perspective, a normal 2x Large Laser is at 10-tons, deals 18 damage at the same range, albeit slower, damage is not PPFLD, but does not require ammo, and can still have machine-guns for backup. 2x LL is much more forgiving than the AC10.

> LB10X has good ammo/ton, 1-ton less from the AC10 that it can have moar ammo. However with 10 pellets spread, not ppfld, it's not that good unless enemy is stripped of armor, and the spread makes it inefficient at longer ranges.

> AC20? Troll build, fun, but otherwise not really good. To get it in the urbanmech means you'd shave the armor you barely have and/or lower the engine rating to take much speed from what little speed you have (compared to other lights). 20 PPFLD is no joke, but considering the little ammo and/or speed to actually fit it in the urbanmech, the 140 damage/ton ammo, the build is.

> Gauss Rifle? Troll build too, but slightly better performing than the AC20, it has better damage/ton, PPFLD at 660m which makes paper-thin armor much bearable than 270m of the AC20 because you can shoot farther away.

In short, the already-heavy IS weapons are aggravated by the need for more tonnage by ammunition. And considering that the Urbanmech is only a 30-tonner, heavy ballistic weapons are generally under performing.

Same argument can be said for the Locust 3S -- 20 tons, and most of it is engine, heat-sink, and armor. Build it as a Striker with SRM2s, still barely enough ammo.

Remember Skill Tree PTS? One of the nodes is "Magazine Capacity" which adds more shots to ammo/ton of every ballistic weapons. Maybe Urbie (and Locust) should get said quirk too? To make the heavy ballistic weapons much more viable. Even if the Damage/Ton of all weapon is normalized to 200, still Urbie and Locust should get more ammo/ton.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 March 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Yes.

So should the Locust 3S.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 March 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

Yes.

So should the Locust 3S.

Yeah, i agree. Even a full-load 4x SRM2s barely have enough ammo, unless we shave armor and removed laser.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 31 March 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

Yeah, i agree. Even a full-load 4x SRM2s barely have enough ammo, unless we shave armor and removed laser.

Even then. 350 rounds is not enough to dig the team out of a hole if it gets itself into one.

I'd imagine the UM has the same problem when it goes...ballistic. >.>

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 March 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

Even then. 350 rounds is not enough to dig the team out of a hole if it gets itself into one.

Doesn't have JJ, meager backup weapons, and that's likely low-tube count too. Yeah I agree.

Yeonne Greene, on 31 March 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

I'd imagine the UM has the same problem when it goes...ballistic. >.>

Heh, "Ballistic".

[Bishop Steiner]

Meh. I love my Urbies. But TBH I dislike magic space ammo. Ammo concerns are part of the design.

The issue is the continued marginalization of damage for individual weapons, from doubled armor and structure, plus quirks, making things like a single PPC, AC10 or AC20 far less effective than they should be, all to continue to cater to massed, pinpoint convergence shooting, to keep the "skillz" folk happy.

And there are some people pushing for MORE bloody damn structure to be added (yes Andi... I'm talking about you, darn it!).

More ammo helps, yes... but it does nothing to stop the continued march toward paper cut DPS fighting, overall, or to help with boating small weapons over using less but larger (as one of the biggest reasons to "go big" in TT was the fact you were putting all the damage into one component).

Seriously, IDK what it would take, and no, (because I see McG lurking) I don't mean adding RNGeezus to the mix. But the core underlying issue is, and has always been, the precision placement of mass converged weapons. Everything else is just symptoms of that, and thus we are just discussing bandaids, until someone finally forces them to address the convergence issue.

An Urbanmech with it's AC10 or 20, should make other Light Mechs crap their britches when they come around the corner. A Hunchback with an AC20 should make even an Assault Mech think twice about poking it's head out.

Obviously, we see none of this.

[The6thMessenger]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

An Urbanmech with it's AC10 or 20, should make other Light Mechs crap their britches when they come around the corner. A Hunchback with an AC20 should make even an Assault Mech think twice about poking it's head out.

Obviously, we see none of this.

It's a question of increased TTK innit? Well, the AC20 and the AC10 would be that scary to a light if they're just easy to hit, but that being projectile-based and the doubled armor means they are hard to hit, and if they are also hit, they can still walk away.

Consider the original battle-tech, it's turn based, and then the new upcoming Battletech from HBS. Easy peasy, slow, you don't have to worry about your timing. Should a light is in your LOS, just assign a weapon, and then it fires, it hits if you're lucky -- or close enough. Lights in this game can freely move on their own, really fast, and you have to time your shot.

If I'm in an arctic cheetah, i honestly wouldn't worry about the Urbanmech, especially with non pin-point weapons, that AC10 with it's slow projectile, considering that im at a 130 KPH light, it's easy to dodge the shots, and shoot back with Lasers of my own, and it doesn't use ammo. Simply put, removing pin-point doesn't really help the Urbanmech, rather it's innaccuracy will only hurt it more, if the question is the AC20/AC10 vs light -- or specifically competitively faster lights, cause they can dodge it anyways.

And good light players, like Mechwarrior80-something, and war_glaives, they can just sneak up behind you and laser your back, close enough to mitigate the shotgun effect with the pin-point removal.



The pin-point convergence as i see it, is kind of necessary considering the increased pace of the FPS genre. We could probably split it, only arm weapons are pin-point, torso weapons aren't. Probably hurt Kodiak -- and it should.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 March 2017 - 07:00 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

The6thMessenger, on 31 March 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

The pin-point convergence as i see it, is kind of necessary considering the increased pace of the FPS genre. We could probably split it, only arm weapons are pin-point, torso weapons aren't. Probably hurt Kodiak -- and it should.

Yeah it's to increase TTK...I'm just saying it's kind of a piss poor way to do so, and it's a problem which just slowly gets worse over time, hence the papercut reference.

I used to be against "fixed convergence", but TBH, I sort of am getting behind it for torso weapons because it appears to be the last gasp to slow the roll on TTK. And it would secondarily give some reason and advantage to mounting arms weaponry again, instead of all these stub arm mechs with no arm armor walking about.

I would still love some form of reticle sway while at higher speeds, and to see high heat impact your targeting, but yeah, I think the Torso/Arm convergence thing realyl is becoming necessary now.

[The6thMessenger]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

Yeah it's to increase TTK...I'm just saying it's kind of a piss poor way to do so, and it's a problem which just slowly gets worse over time, hence the papercut reference.

I used to be against "fixed convergence", but TBH, I sort of am getting behind it for torso weapons because it appears to be the last gasp to slow the roll on TTK. And it would secondarily give some reason and advantage to mounting arms weaponry again, instead of all these stub arm mechs with no arm armor walking about.

I would still love some form of reticle sway while at higher speeds, and to see high heat impact your targeting, but yeah, I think the Torso/Arm convergence thing realyl is becoming necessary now.

The heat thing is too much compounding factor. Seriously, i get that Battletech is hard sci-fi, but adding something like that would just make the game a lot more complex than it needs to be. If i wanted to play sniper simulator, i could just get a Noreen ULR .338, and shoot targets with a spotter of my own.



Maybe increased TTK is inevitable considering the FPS shooter, and the highly-skilled non-AI combatants.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 March 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[Skanderborg]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Meh. I love my Urbies. But TBH I dislike magic space ammo. Ammo concerns are part of the design.

The issue is the continued marginalization of damage for individual weapons, from doubled armor and structure, plus quirks, making things like a single PPC, AC10 or AC20 far less effective than they should be, all to continue to cater to massed, pinpoint convergence shooting, to keep the "skillz" folk happy.

And there are some people pushing for MORE bloody damn structure to be added (yes Andi... I'm talking about you, darn it!).

More ammo helps, yes... but it does nothing to stop the continued march toward paper cut DPS fighting, overall, or to help with boating small weapons over using less but larger (as one of the biggest reasons to "go big" in TT was the fact you were putting all the damage into one component).

Seriously, IDK what it would take, and no, (because I see McG lurking) I don't mean adding RNGeezus to the mix. But the core underlying issue is, and has always been, the precision placement of mass converged weapons. Everything else is just symptoms of that, and thus we are just discussing bandaids, until someone finally forces them to address the convergence issue.

An Urbanmech with it's AC10 or 20, should make other Light Mechs crap their britches when they come around the corner. A Hunchback with an AC20 should make even an Assault Mech think twice about poking it's head out.

Obviously, we see none of this.

I've never played the table top. But i can imagine the double armor that we have changes alot of things. If im right , an Atlas in the TT would have around 50-60 max armor on the CT , meaning a single PPC or AC-20 hit would be devastating , and a 2 ASRM6 commando would do alot of work to everything despite being a 25 tonner.

[RestosIII]

If we're going to be requesting ammo quirks on mechs, I need to quickly jump in and just say: The Summoner. Please. Even if it's just relegated to the set-of-8 quirks.

[Skanderborg]

RestosIII, on 31 March 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

If we're going to be requesting ammo quirks on mechs, I need to quickly jump in and just say: The Summoner. Please. Even if it's just relegated to the set-of-8 quirks.

Indeed , I want to run a UAC-20 , ASRM-6 brawler build on the thor , but can never squeeze in enough ammo.

[RestosIII]

Skanderborg, on 31 March 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

Indeed , I want to run a UAC-20 , ASRM-6 brawler build on the thor , but can never squeeze in enough ammo.

Mostly I just want to be able to run a lore build with more than 2 tons of ammo total.

[Barantor]

I'd leave it alone, but if something like that were to be done then it needs a bit of increase on chance to crit too. Tradeoff.

[Jackal Noble]

I thought the whole point of playing a minimally viable mech; was that it was minimally viable.

[Skanderborg]

JackalBeast, on 31 March 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

I thought the whole point of playing a minimally viable mech; was that it was minimally viable.

Yeah its a shame , if i played those minimally viable mechs i would have to give up my Dorito sponsorship , mountian dew sponsorship , my intel gaming jerseys , and my loft in south korea.

[Bishop Steiner]

Skanderborg, on 31 March 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

I've never played the table top. But i can imagine the double armor that we have changes alot of things. If im right , an Atlas in the TT would have around 50-60 max armor on the CT , meaning a single PPC or AC-20 hit would be devastating , and a 2 ASRM6 commando would do alot of work to everything despite being a 25 tonner.

devastating? No. But nothing to be ignored. Still, with random damage spread, 50 CT armor meant you could wade into a lot of enemy fire.

And well, an AC20 was meant to give any mech pause. In part because one shot could decapitate any mech on the field.

On the other hand? Hit a Locust with a PPC? Bad things happened. An AC20? well, you might find enough scraps to fill a baggy.

RestosIII, on 31 March 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

Mostly I just want to be able to run a lore build with more than 2 tons of ammo total.

then it wouldn't be a lore build.... silly.

[Skanderborg]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

devastating? No. But nothing to be ignored. Still, with random damage spread, 50 CT armor meant you could wade into a lot of enemy fire.

And well, an AC20 was meant to give any mech pause. In part because one shot could decapitate any mech on the field.

On the other hand? Hit a Locust with a PPC? Bad things happened. An AC20? well, you might find enough scraps to fill a baggy.


then it wouldn't be a lore build.... silly.

Suppose the thor had a ammo truck following him around at all times in the lore then?

[El Bandito]

PGI will tell you that there is "+ammo" skill node in the new skill tree so wait for it. Big weapons on 30 or 35 tonner is just not good unfortunately, unless the mech is Clan.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 March 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Skanderborg, on 31 March 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Suppose the thor had a ammo truck following him around at all times in the lore then?

Clans doctrine was blitzkrieg engagements at the time, and recall, before Operation Revival, the Clans were basically fighting small scale engagements that had more akin to large duels than real warfare for 200 years. Poor ammo endurance was intentional in design. Look at almost any of the Invasion Designs... the TBR only had a single ton of ammo per LRM20, for instance.