59 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Lorcryst NySell, on 02 April 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

Care to elaborate a bit on that ? I don't really understand what you are saying/writing ...

I'm used to monthly sub schemes, and I honestly don't think it would kill the game ... maybe the "Young Crowd" would go away because "I want it all, for free" would not be the case anymore ?

No offense meant, I'm just confused ...

Well, I know I would be gone from the game. Seen as I've spent more money on this game than I'd probably like to admit... (Phoenix pack, Resistance 1 and 2, Huntsmen, Linebacker, Uzeil, mechbays, MC...) If it was subscription, I wouldn't have been able to play this game, and I certainly wouldn't have dropped the money on this game either. That would have been a lot of money gone from just me (which I admit isn't much in the grand scheme of things).

It also would probably have dropped the population even farther, making match maker work even harder and/or longer to find matches than it may already take. I'm not saying population is critically low now, but it would probably be that way if it was a subscription.

[Jingseng]

do also understand that paying a subscription let's people feel even MORE 'entitled' to make unreasonable and unfocused demands and criticisms (even though, ironically, they may in fact be paying less).

But really, when the subscription argument gets trotted out, it generally means:

1) I want all the same content for a $20/mo subscription (even though it would cost me more than $20 per month), on top of additional things I will feel entitled to demand, such as more content, better service, more input, etc.

2) I am an elitist and I want to establish a cash gate to drive away casuals, those who are not as good as me in my mind, or otherwise have less disposable cash/income to devote to a hobby.

3) Both 1&2.

4) 1 & 2 & 3 & 4, because I don't really understand how numbers get allocated and such.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Good points Tesunie and Jingseng !

I guess my mindset of "paying and being happy with what I paid for" must be very alien in these times of F2P, want more for less.

So, am I a whale or a dinosaur then ?

[mad kat]

What's amusing is this game is as stale as ever and still has a bucket loads of bugs, errors, total lack of matchmaker and to top it all off run by the incompetent PGI (with a few staff exceptions notably Alex).

Yet they still feel that charging hundreds of dollars for a few 1's and 0's is totally justifiable. Now that means one of two things either PGI aren't that cheeky or brazen as people are genuinely (in my eyes insane enough) and willing to spend that much money on effectively nothing so why shouldn't they charge that. Or Some people out there have more money than sense, no social life or family commitments and a crap ton of spare time!

If it is the later and people are willing to pay that much then you can't really say PGI are that daft after all.

[Rogue Jedi]

Lorcryst NySell, on 02 April 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

Care to elaborate a bit on that ? I don't really understand what you are saying/writing ...

I'm used to monthly sub schemes, and I honestly don't think it would kill the game ... maybe the "Young Crowd" would go away because "I want it all, for free" would not be the case anymore ?

No offense meant, I'm just confused ...

in my case my average monthily spend on MWO is well over £20 per month, I spend because I want to, however if I had to spend I doubt I would, the second you try to force someone to do something they previously did not have to do, even if they would have chosen to do so anyway, they become more reluctant to do so.

if MWO had started with a monthly subscription I would certainly not paid into the "founders" preorder, I would have probably paid for a few months then stopped paying and playing, but even if they had a $15 per month subscription and I had kept it going they would not have got anywhere near as much money from me.

if you have this hobby which you realy enjoy doing then turn that hobby into a job it becomes less enjoyable, you do not suddenty hate it but (at least for me) it stopped being something I get excited about, I still enjoy messing around with computers and figuring out what is wrong with them but now that I have been doing it professionaly for 8 years it is no longer as enjoyable as it was when I was doing it as a hobby.

[TooDumbToQuit]

I keep reading and hearing what seems to be a disconnect.

The same people who say that they spend $20 or more per month for this game also say that they would not pay $20 a month for this game.

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 02 April 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

As far as Transverse goes, it probably was bad timing. They just got ride of IGP, that probably should have turned that reputation IGP kinda gave them around first, then announce a new title in the works. (As it is though, people are saying that all money made by MW:O and work is being done on MW5 now, and that all progress is halting on MW:O. I don't see that so much... wouldn't make sense.) Ultimately, I'll let the actions of the past reflect on who is probably truly at fault through the evidence I know of. I mean, look at what IGP did to MW Tactics, among their other supported projects. Picked up without a word, with weeks (if not months) of no word about what was happening. (Unless, of course, I've been falsely informed.)

That was another thing that had just happened, too, MWTactics went for months (you are correct; I was an avid player of it and I thought it had a lot of potential if they just abandoned the 4 mech system and went full digital battletech, I really enjoyed how you both did your turns, choose your targets, and then everything played simultaneously to give you a true Battletech feel. Proper ACs, too, that fire like heavy hitting machine guns instead of the outdated tank-like Mech Rifles of old. Btw, AC/2 Jenner. That is all.).

They were still taking founder purchases too btw during that quiet hiatus. Then suddenly IGP pulled the game with a shutdown for maintenance and put its assets up for auction. What happened was when IGP and PGI got divorced, IGP wasn't able to hitch onto PGI for the rights to the license anymore and therefore could not continue MW Tactics. It was during Transverse's funding that IGP put the stuff on auction and I believe that was the final straw..

But again that was then, this is now, and that's the evils of a Publisher that's out more for the money than much else. Not all publishers are like that, but some are and it makes a bad name for the rest.
(IGP changed developers for their MWTactics project at least once, too. Which I think is a shame, I get that the game wasn't all that popular to begin with but it was very well balanced with the original guys. The 'newer' guys just introduced a crap load of cards to earn or pay for and the ones you paid for tended to be game breaking.)

Here's to the future. Because while Brian Eckman was working on MWO it was pretty sweet. Since Russ took active reigns... kinda up and down. We'll see what happens with Eckman's MW5 Mercs.
Though I know both of them have a huge challenge to face when considering Weissman's Battletech PC Game (Jordan Weissman being one of the original creators of the tabletop game and co-founder to FASA...and the many companies it has turned into since.)

(Also I know it isn't part of what I quoted from you Tsunie, but to those saying all work is done one way or the other... PGI currently has two teams. The Russ/Paul team and the Eckman team which has been largely silent since Transverse's funding failure until MechCon 2016. Basically MW5 Mercs' team was the one already put together for Transverse, it is the same engine and since they are mostly porting assets over, it doesn't need a big team. Those aren't the official names mind you. Another way to think of it is the CryEngine team [MWO] and the Unreal team [MW5: Mercs].)

Edited by Koniving, 03 April 2017 - 04:51 AM.

[Tesunie]

Lorcryst NySell, on 02 April 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

Good points Tesunie and Jingseng !

I guess my mindset of "paying and being happy with what I paid for" must be very alien in these times of F2P, want more for less.

So, am I a whale or a dinosaur then ?

An ancient Dinosaur Whale? You are what is referred to as a "living fossil".

LikeUntoGod, on 03 April 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

I keep reading and hearing what seems to be a disconnect.

The same people who say that they spend $20 or more per month for this game also say that they would not pay $20 a month for this game.

It's a matter of "pay as I please" and "being forced to pay".

I tend not to have the income to afford to lose a set money to any subscriptions. I also have this thing where a subscription makes me feel like I "have" to play.

There is also an issue of trust here. I don't just throw my card information out to anyone over the internet. A company tends to have to earn it's trust with me. MW:O has done so through it being free to play (I could see if I even liked the game), and then I hesitantly placed some money for MC to see if I could trust them with my information. If I had not been able to do so, I would not have even tried. (Too many scam companies out there.)

There are also sometimes issues with recurring subscriptions. Wont tell you how many magazine subs my older brother has had, canceled, had them continue to deliver mags and charge him for months afterwards as he fought them to just STOP. Thus, another reason to not do subscriptions for some of us. And falls back onto "trust".

[Rogue Jedi]

LikeUntoGod, on 03 April 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

I keep reading and hearing what seems to be a disconnect.

The same people who say that they spend $20 or more per month for this game also say that they would not pay $20 a month for this game.

I have had bad experiances with subscriptions in the past, simular to those described by Tesune, I have had to tell my bank to cancel direct debits or standing orders, so I avoid them where possible.

if I had to pay as I mentioned in an earlier post I would be less likely to want to do so

but lets say MWO was a monthly subscription and I liked it enough to keep paying;

I am currently out of work, and with the unemployement benefits I am entitled to, after rent and other bills, I will have about £60 per month, to spend on food and luxuries, I will refer to this as disposable income, when I was in work I had almost £200 a month disposable income, if this game had a monthly subscription I would at this point have no choice but to cancel the subscription and would not be able to play again until I was back in work.

Even when I was working I sometimes had months where I have a lot of money going out, e.g. August and September I have 2 siblings, 2 nephews, a neice and 3 other people who I buy birthday presents for, so each year I would ether have to specificaly put money aside for MWO or to cancel the subscription, same with December and Christmas.

add in the fact that if it went from f2p to p2p you would loose at least 75% of the player base causing far worse balenced matches and/or longer wait times, which in turn would cause the other 25% to reconsider if the subscription is worthwhile, likely causing a lot of people each month to decide to cancel their subscription and far fewer new players to give the game a try and I very much doubt the game would last long.

If this still does not make sense to you I do not know how else to explain this to you

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 03 April 2017 - 09:59 AM.

[Lorcryst NySell]

Well, I'm also currently on unemployment benefits (long story short, I have serious mental health problems, MMOs allow me to vent my aggression on pixels instead of people, but in day to day Real Life you should avoid me at all costs), and I do have to think long and hard about my expenses each month ...

But I'm still able to set aside 23 euros per month to buy two time codes for my two Ultima Online accounts (and I do that because it's 11.50 euros for a time card while the monthly subscription autorenewed is 13 euros ... yes, saving 3 euros on my "destress" budget can be all the difference in the end).

I'm lucky (?.?) that I'm single, with almost no family left, so I don't have to plan for gifts ... and the few birthdays of my friends (that are also my AoS gaming group) are widely spaced, and we have a tradition of spending maximum 25 euros on gifts of miniatures/hobby material for each other, so I can work my budget around that.

Let's be honest : I'm not rich, far from it, but with some clever thinking and budgeting, I *CAN* afford my two UO accounts and a few luxuries like MWO purchases ... not every month for MWO, and I could buy those very expensive Ultimate Packs only because I sold a bunch of old books and minis recently.

Oh, I don't have a credit card, I use Paypal, and I don't buy recurring subscriptions ...

Each one of us has to balance income and expenses, with a goal of having a comfortable life first, and some luxuries after that.

Years ago I played several games for 6+ hours sessions for each game every day, while blissfully spending my inheritance, but you could say that this "living fossil" has learned a very hard lesson since then ...

[Tesunie]

Lorcryst NySell, on 03 April 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

...you could say that this "living fossil" has learned a very hard lesson since then ...

I just want to make sure, because it's hard to tell sometimes in text, that you know I was just joking with that statement.

Sometimes... my sense of humor could use some work. Good thing I'm not a comedian...

[Randall Flagg]

[laughs in gold direwolf]

[Lorcryst NySell]

Tesunie, on 03 April 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

I just want to make sure, because it's hard to tell sometimes in text, that you know I was just joking with that statement.

Sometimes... my sense of humor could use some work. Good thing I'm not a comedian...

My sense of humour can be twisted at times, but I actually like that "Living Fossil" moniker ... reminds me of my studies at the university 20 years ago (I was in Biology), and links nicely with the "living fossil" (Mosasaur) still found in some of the rivers in my country.

So yes, I know you were joking, and I'm going along with it, no offense taken, it just made me smile

[Insanity09]

PGI has a long history of seriously milking its player base, why is this surprising and upsetting now?

[TooDumbToQuit]

I understand it all but like I said, I've spent more than $20 a month on Mechs etc on this game. And I have 92 mechs, most of which are rarely if ever played.

On my other account, I'm now up to three mechs since I'm not paying for anything. Through grinding I hope one day to have 3 more and then I will have a Clan drop deck.

I'm not talking about paying $20 a month and buying Mech packs and PT. I would expect that there would be no mech packs or PT for sale and everyone would be on the same footing, everything would be bought with C-Bills.

It would level the playing field and add some honesty to the game and for ourselves.

[Tesunie]

LikeUntoGod, on 04 April 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

It would level the playing field and add some honesty to the game and for ourselves.

I don't exactly see how this game is unleveled between those whom have bought packs and those that have not. I also don't see any real dishonesty there either. If anything, it just means that by the time the mechs come out for C-bills, you can probably make a more informed decision about if you want to work to get it (if you did not purchase it to begin with). You can also purchase the packs after it's release and you know if you want it sooner, can wait for C-bill release and/or if it's any good.

Of course, this is my opinion, but I kinda am intrigued by your perspective on this. So, please? Explain more maybe?

[TooDumbToQuit]

Tesunie, on 04 April 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

I don't exactly see how this game is unleveled between those whom have bought packs and those that have not. I also don't see any real dishonesty there either. If anything, it just means that by the time the mechs come out for C-bills, you can probably make a more informed decision about if you want to work to get it (if you did not purchase it to begin with). You can also purchase the packs after it's release and you know if you want it sooner, can wait for C-bill release and/or if it's any good.

Of course, this is my opinion, but I kinda am intrigued by your perspective on this. So, please? Explain more maybe?

Sure. I have two accounts. On one I pay for PT and have bought mech packs and Heros etc. On the 2nd I just play "for free".

It is night and day. On my first account, when I needed a IS drop deck it took me 5 minutes to get one. By spending real money I'm also able to buy and thus play bigger mechs which equals more damage which equals more XP and C-Bills. Plus the PT gives me 50% more C-Bills and XP. A Hero adds 30% more C-Bills. I have 92 mechs on that account.

On my 2nd account, I started with one, then a 2nd then a 3rd Shadowcat. I also finally have my first Hellbringer and I hope to have three of them in a 3 weeks or so. And then FINALLY, I will have a Clan drop deck. For a long time, I was using mostly the new Champaign Trial Mechs which mean I will never get to use the XP I made using them. It was real hard making C-Bills and XP with a ShadowCat even though I'm a much better player than when I started the first account.

For instance, when I started with my 1st account, I LOST my whole Tier 5 and had to gain it all back again. On my 2nd account, playing lesser mechs, I've stayed at about right where everyone starts. If I bought a Kodiak pack I'm gain tier 4 instead of being stuck here.

Playing my 2nd account I will never catch up to me playing a Hero with PT which gives me an 80% C-Bill boost per game and the 50% boost in XP.

Think of it like car racing. Joe Blow uses used cars and slowly saves up money to buy a car of his own. And then slowly to get a 2nd etc.

While Joe Cool buys a stable of new cars and has a deal with the racetracks where he is paid more for the same amount of wins. And he wins more often because he has better cars.

And he has better cars which are more likely to win more.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Is anyone planning on buying one or more of the new Heros?

There is your $20.00 a month fee but in your mind, you paid real money for mechs because you wanted them now (3 months from now). And Heros and Champions will never be sold for C-Bills.

You were still "forced" to buy the new mechs (it is called clever advertising and keeping up with the Jones) but you are thinking "well, I have some extra money and I want to play with them now".

Advertising is all about creating "excitement' and "false needs".

It also makes you want to buy a better PC etc.

[Rogue Jedi]

LikeUntoGod, on 04 April 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

Is anyone planning on buying one or more of the new Heros?

There is your $20.00 a month fee but in your mind, you paid real money for mechs because you wanted them now (3 months from now). And Heros and Champions will never be sold for C-Bills.

You were still "forced" to buy the new mechs (it is called clever advertising and keeping up with the Jones) but you are thinking "well, I have some extra money and I want to play with them now".

Advertising is all about creating "excitement' and "false needs".

It also makes you want to buy a better PC etc.

if/when I have the money I would/will probably buy the Wolfhound, Crab and Zeus and I would consider the Panther and Urbenmech heroes
and I just noticed the Clan heroes second wave, the MLX, ACH, IFR, MDD and HBR all look interesting out of that set
but I cannot buy them because at current I have no disposable income ^{(and have not for about 2 months at this point)}, this is back to your obsession that a monthly subscription would be better, but if this was a monthly subscription game I would not be playing at all until I am back in work.

and I do want to build a new PC, my current 2010 build is starting to show its age, it still does the job but I would prefer to relegate this one to my backup and build a new one.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 05 April 2017 - 12:15 AM.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

The problem is the "Free to play" model which everyone forgets that the developer needs to make that money somewhere so it can actually pay it's employees and do the things they want to do so naturally the prices for ingame transactions go up to compensate that

Personally I've never been a fan of the "Free to Play" model as realistically you do need to make purchases to get more out of the game. I am hoping PGI doesn't make that same mistake with Mechwarrior 5 I'd happily purchase the game over going Free to play again (of course depending on how much they charge for it)