45 replies to this topic

[Lionheart2012]

Hi team,

Here is a proposal for the skill tree. Let's keep the development of this moving forward. The community wants a new skill tree, one that is done well.

[Bud Crue]

Russ stated during the comp round table/town hall thingy that it is coming in May.

[chucklesMuch]

Bud Crue, on 02 April 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

Russ stated during the comp round table/town hall thingy that it is coming in May.

Here's hoping that the compensation model they decide on/have decided on doesnt set the forums on fire... also must continue to drop in the fun IS mechs that maybe losing their offensive quirks like cicadas...

[Wildstreak]

Bet the new one goes straight to Live.
Almost done getting needed MXP on all owned Mechs, as to whether I have the CB, doubt it so will see which I prioritize.
Just gotta work those single/double variants per chassis, Jenner IICs and Vindicators.

[Mystere]

chucklesMuch, on 02 April 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

Here's hoping that the compensation model they decide on/have decided on doesnt set the forums on fire... also must continue to drop in the fun IS mechs that maybe losing their offensive quirks like cicadas...

If the compensation model is the primary cause of a forum fire, then this playerbase deserves to see this game shut down once and for all.

[MechaBattler]

Mystere, on 02 April 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

If the compensation model is the primary cause of a forum fire, then this playerbase deserves to see this game shut down once and for all.

I think it was more the unmastering of people's mechs. With the justification that people should have bought modules for the refund. The whales were not happy about that and PGI must have seen a sharp rise in refund demands.

The cost of the skill tree was going to be just under 5 mill. Lot cheaper than modules if you ask me. But I don't know if that's still the case, since they're reevaluating how they'll compensate people for mastered mechs and modules.

Edited by MechaBattler, 02 April 2017 - 03:07 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Mystere, on 02 April 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

If the compensation model is the primary cause of a forum fire, then this playerbase deserves to see this game shut down once and for all.

Forum fire or not...that is precisely what Russ took from the criticisms. ALL his official posts during and following the PTS as well as his tweets have been directed to this issue, and a few passing references to improvements in the UI. No mention of the proposed nerfs, the mind numbing aspect of 91 clicks, the destruction of mech builds and diversity (by nerfing some chassis' variants so their quirks are nearly identical), nor the impact on the system on the NPE. Nope, the compensation model may not have been the exclusive cause of the skills tree forum fire before, but it it is the only fire Russ/PGI apparently feel it necessary to put out.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bud Crue, on 02 April 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Forum fire or not...that is precisely what Russ took from the criticisms. ALL his official posts during and following the PTS as well as his tweets have been directed to this issue, and a few passing references to improvements in the UI. No mention of the proposed nerfs, the mind numbing aspect of 91 clicks, the destruction of mech builds and diversity (by nerfing some chassis' variants so their quirks are nearly identical), nor the impact on the system on the NPE. Nope, the compensation model may not have been the exclusive cause of the skills tree forum fire before, but it it is the only fire Russ/PGI apparently feel it necessary to put out.

Well... it did happen to be the biggest fire with people being mad about not having mastered mechs that they never really mastered with modules not being fully mastered in the new system. That's what happens when you play pokemech with 400 mechs and not a single module.

I'm just hoping they actually pay people back for the modules since they actually did fully earn those modules ontop of their mastered mechs they use them on.

[FireStoat]

Mystere, on 02 April 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

If the compensation model is the primary cause of a forum fire, then this playerbase deserves to see this game shut down once and for all.

The largest issue people complained about was that they took a very good, hard look at the current system and the total range of bonuses conferred from having Mastered a mech (no modules installed). Then they took a look at how many skill points would be required to recover that same total of bonuses, which they felt they had already earned in game, on top of how many millions of Cbills would be required to recover those bonuses.

For players with MANY mechs that were merely pushed into Mastered state in the current system but no further, they discovered the new system would fall far, FAR short of what they once had. On top of having to pay Cbills to recover that status after doing a brand new batch of grinding per mech to the 56 point cutoff with the new system to get what they had.

It came off as a "Hello, player. Take a look at what you currently have, how long it took you to get it, and rest assured that we at PGI feel that we gave you too much. And now we're taking it back." - thus the forum dumpster fire.

[Bud Crue]

Dakota1000, on 02 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well... it did happen to be the biggest fire with people being mad about not having mastered mechs that they never really mastered with modules not being fully mastered in the new system. That's what happens when you play pokemech with 400 mechs and not a single module.

I'm just hoping they actually pay people back for the modules since they actually did fully earn those modules ontop of their mastered mechs they use them on.

Oh, I get it. I was just answering Mystere. I totally understand why Russ took notice of the issue and why he is focused on addressing it and seemingly only it. Lots of pissed off players and customers. For sure. I just happen to think that it is a side show to the diversity killing nerfs.

No need to go into it again here, but to me, I could not care less if I get "adequately compensated" for my modules and XP, if all the mechs I enjoy playing are nerfed into oblivion. Gutting balance seems to me to be a bigger issue than some cbills or being required to play a bit more to re-level a mech.

Meh. At least I'll have lots of cash to buy mechs that aren't being nerfed or are nerf proof. Can't wait for QP where all we see are Cheetahs, Hunchback IIcs, Night Gyrs and Kodiaks. I wonder how he will put out that fire...or if he will even bother. Legacy tech and legacy mechs...here we come!

[Wildstreak]

To go further and simply explain why PGI was wrong on one issue.

1 - What some players did like myself
Buy up to 8 modules to make a CW drop deck plus maybe some 1x of any module thought interesting. Usually this meant 4x Seismic and 4x Radar Deprivation. (Later became 10 and up to 5x with Scouting, 12 and 6x if you wanted another Mech ready for QP without changing your deck). Sometimes you do run without weapon modules.
Swap those between Mechs if you change your drop deck.
Since you spend less CB on modules, you can buy more Mechs.
Since you buy more Mechs, you need more MechBays thus spend money on MC to get those MechBays even after the free Bays you win in an event.

2 - What PGI assumed and its result if it happened
Buy a set of modules for each owned Mech never removing them.
No swapping needed.
Since you spend so much CB on modules, you spend less on Mechs. You also spend less on other equipment meaning you do not change loadouts much.
Since you buy less Mechs, you need less MechBays thus spend less money on MC to get those Bays.

That large bold lettered part is where PGI screwed up in calling people cheapskates. The PGI way required less real money spent.

There are other issues with the new Tree and I have this real high belief those problems will hit the Live server and take months to fix.

[chucklesMuch]

Mystere, on 02 April 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

If the compensation model is the primary cause of a forum fire, then this playerbase deserves to see this game shut down once and for all.

I simply hope that they get the balance right (for both mastery progression, cbill compensation) or close enough so that we can move on...

Hopefully we will have more new tech info by the time ST drops too, as if the skill tree is meant to allow for some of the new tech (ie quirks removed from IS mechs) then people are more likely to okay with it if we can see/understand where PGI are coming from. Also hoping MWO doesn't simply become clan wars.

[Scyther]

I think they addressed the 'issue' of the compensation model clearly in their post. What their 'solution' will be remains to be seen.

I would strongly recommend that they try to come up with a 'default' skill tree that covers what a currently mastered mech has, and pre-set those nodes for mastered/partially mastered mechs. That way you don't log in only to find you need to click-fill out a skill tree for every mech you own. 1 free respec per owned mech would let you adjust any skill trees you choose to later.

To some extent this would help with the compensation issue, since if your 'mech has an equivalent set of nodes to its current mastery level pre-purchased, you don't need to refund them.

Adjustment of quirks needs some thought (because since apparently all the skill trees are the same, then the skill tree does nothing at all to address mech imbalances), but can at least be worked on/updated over time.

One issue that the current tree didn't address (at least not that I saw) is encouragement to own multi-variants of the same chassis. Since this has been a mainstay MC seller for them, both in Mech Packs and Mastery Packs, they should reward ownership of more than 1 variant. Possibly by making a discount on the purchase of nodes based on how many mechs of that chassis you own, or a flat discount on purchase of skill you already bought on another variant.

A few tweaks like that, and then even if it isn't perfect and needs more work, it would be workable enough to release and move forward with.

[Mystere]

FireStoat, on 02 April 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

The largest issue people complained about was that they took a very good, hard look at the current system and the total range of bonuses conferred from having Mastered a mech (no modules installed). Then they took a look at how many skill points would be required to recover that same total of bonuses, which they felt they had already earned in game, on top of how many millions of Cbills would be required to recover those bonuses.

For players with MANY mechs that were merely pushed into Mastered state in the current system but no further, they discovered the new system would fall far, FAR short of what they once had. On top of having to pay Cbills to recover that status after doing a brand new batch of grinding per mech to the 56 point cutoff with the new system to get what they had.

It came off as a "Hello, player. Take a look at what you currently have, how long it took you to get it, and rest assured that we at PGI feel that we gave you too much. And now we're taking it back." - thus the forum dumpster fire.

I don't know about other folks, but for me Mech mastery usually comes as a result of me just playing the Mech. Heck, I even did that a lot in CW and sometimes even forgot to level until I had thousands of XP waiting to be used.

I'm a whole lot more worried about the quality of the trees themselves. For example, what is the point of forcing people to take skills for lower arm actuators in Mechs that have none?

[Mystere]

Dakota1000, on 02 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well... it did happen to be the biggest fire with people being mad about not having mastered mechs that they never really mastered with modules not being fully mastered in the new system. That's what happens when you play pokemech with 400 mechs and not a single module.

I'm just hoping they actually pay people back for the modules since they actually did fully earn those modules ontop of their mastered mechs they use them on.

I say compensating people with c-bills for bought modules and XP consumed for leveling Mechs is enough. Heck, I would not even cry too hard () if the latter was not done. It would at least have the benefit of making everyone start on closer footing.

[MechaBattler]

Bud Crue, on 02 April 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Forum fire or not...that is precisely what Russ took from the criticisms. ALL his official posts during and following the PTS as well as his tweets have been directed to this issue, and a few passing references to improvements in the UI. No mention of the proposed nerfs, the mind numbing aspect of 91 clicks, the destruction of mech builds and diversity (by nerfing some chassis' variants so their quirks are nearly identical), nor the impact on the system on the NPE. Nope, the compensation model may not have been the exclusive cause of the skills tree forum fire before, but it it is the only fire Russ/PGI apparently feel it necessary to put out.

They did actually mention about addressing the amount of clicks one had to make. But the quirk nerfs were quite egregious. Even if they wanted to lower overall cooldown, some mechs lost half of their cooldown quirks. And like you said, some became either nearly identical. Or with such minor quirks that it was case of why bother at that point? I suppose 5% heat reduction more than Clan mechs sounds great, but the Crab isn't fooling anyone as being competitive with Clan mechs. And the percentage differences in the skill trees of each faction, if there even were differences, was negligible.

It felt premature to pull the skill tree. They should have rolled out another iteration and done some direct testing of Clan versus IS. To see where the changes really hit home. Even if the mastering and cost issues weren't yet resolved. Seemed like they needed to readdress quirks. Not just blanket nerf them.

Edited by MechaBattler, 02 April 2017 - 03:18 PM.

[GenghisJr]

MechaBattler, on 02 April 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

I think it was more the unmastering of people's mechs. With the justification that people should have bought modules for the refund. The whales were not happy about that and PGI must have seen a sharp rise in refund demands.

The cost of the skill tree was going to be just under 5 mill. Lot cheaper than modules if you ask me. But I don't know if that's still the case, since they're reevaluating how they'll compensate people for mastered mechs and modules.

Cheaper than modules! 1-2 mech modules(12M), + 2 weapon modules(6M) +1mech/weapon (4-6M) x 145 mechs ignoring consumables. Approx 3,190,000,000 cbills. About 580 XL300 engines lol lol vs exp gained on module that can be transferred to any mech. If I were to stop spending cash until I "remastered" these mechs, at 6-8 hours game time per week it would be years before i needed to spend real money on the challenge of mastering a new mech

[MechaBattler]

GenghisJr, on 02 April 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Cheaper than modules! 1-2 mech modules(12M), + 2 weapon modules(6M) +1mech/weapon (4-6M) x 145 mechs ignoring consumables. Approx 3,190,000,000 cbills. About 580 XL300 engines lol lol vs exp gained on module that can be transferred to any mech. If I were to stop spending cash until I "remastered" these mechs, at 6-8 hours game time per week it would be years before i needed to spend real money on the challenge of mastering a new mech

I'm assuming they fix the issues of mastering already mastered mechs. Ideally for free.

I'm thinking fresh account. The cost of 3xMechs, plus 3xupgrades, one set of equipment to swap between them, and the modules.

Versus

Skill System 5 mill, 1 mech, upgrades, equipment, no modules.

It is more expensive in the long run because you could swap modules on live. Even if you played FP, you'd only need 4 module sets. But conversely you'd need only to purchase 4 mechs and master under skill tree. It's only when you're a big collect that it really gets expensive. I honestly don't know why anyone would care about getting every variant and mastering it, some of their differences are negligible.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mystere, on 02 April 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

I say compensating people with c-bills for bought modules and XP consumed for leveling Mechs is enough. Heck, I would not even cry too hard () if the latter was not done. It would at least have the benefit of making everyone start on closer footing.

To be honest all I want is my millions of cbills so I can blow them all on LFEs. Half the mechs I have mastered would be able to go through the new skill tree multiple times even if they didn't refund my XP.

[justcallme A S H]

Dakota1000, on 02 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Well... it did happen to be the biggest fire with people being mad about not having mastered mechs that they never really mastered with modules not being fully mastered in the new system. That's what happens when you play pokemech with 400 mechs and not a single module.

I'm just hoping they actually pay people back for the modules since they actually did fully earn those modules ontop of their mastered mechs they use them on.

Yep, half my mechbay of 100 mechs is module equipped.

So it had better be the case or the fire will be even worse.

That said the whole "you need these dozen useless skills to get to the one you want" was one of the larger gripes, if that isn't addressed, there will still be fire as that goes against what PGI said it was attempting with the ST in the first damn instance. Letting the player "choose" what they want.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 April 2017 - 07:17 PM.