23 replies to this topic

[LowSubmarino]

What's Tier 1 worth, if you get teams where three ppl run single file into the entire enemy team
(not together but apart) at Minute 14.

First dies at min 14,20. Second at 14. Third runs on open ground into the entire enemy team and dies at min 13.45.

I want a player rate player system.

If anybody plays this abysmally bad and we are down three mechs because of complete brainlessnes then I want to vote that player.

And I want to be able to see open lobbys where you see exactly what kind of players are in their. If players got abysmal rating I will not play with them.

Ever.

They can play among themsevles.

Let real ppl...let real human players rate other players. That will be a much, much x 10000000000000000 better indicator just what kind of player you are dealing with.

It sucks the fun out of a match if you are down 3 - 5 mechs in 1 minute. Thats not a fight its no fun. Not even for the winners.

When Im in a match and we roll over them im so bored i could fall asleep. its no joy for either side.

The match maker isnt doing the job it was intended for.

Lobbys where you can see the players and their ratings.

Forget the matchmaker.

I dont mind losing. I dont mind it at all if the game was good.

If you are down 3 - 5 mechs in 40 - 80 seconds you have a 99 % chance of loosing. No matter what you do. I fire at the maximal heat threshhold nonstop, trade at the limit, trading shield arms too, overheating a bit and taking engine dmg and fire everything nonstop but you simply cannot compensate for this level of noobnes.

Wheres the fun in that?

I want to be able to give a player that plays that bad in Tier one a very bad rating so I can warn other players to NO take that guy as a lancemate.

Becaus nobody on the entire planet wants somebody like that covering their backs.

Nobody.

I dont want to play with those kind of ppl.

The MM in its currrent form forces you to play with those kind of players.

What good is it to be Tier 1 I ask then?

No matter how you turn and twist it.....i cant find any sense in this. It just doesnt make any sense on any kind of level.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

We do not have enough player.
Matchmaker drops a tier ever other minute while waiting to slap two teams together.
There are currently only 2 real tier matchups.
t1-t4 and t2-t5.

Mind you, it's not always the t4 who's getting killed 1 minute into the game. Sure some just yolo into the enemy and find their t1-t2 party, but more often then not, the t1-t2 guy gets killed early because the rest of his t4 team is busy lobbing lurmz into vegitation or get stuck on pebbles and the likes.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 02 April 2017 - 03:26 AM.

[El Bandito]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 02 April 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

We do not have enough player.

This. Any tight MM will take a long time to find a match due to population issue. If you want to play with some decent players then play in Group Queue. Solo-Q madness is not for you, OP.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[Cpt Zaepp]

Despite the relatively small player-base, the system doesn't work properly anyway. It's flawed. It's more like a XP-Bar and it does not work like, for example, "TrueSkill". Eventually most players will end up in Tier 1-2.

http://www.moserware...your-skill.html
https://www.microsof...-rating-system/

[Nik Reaper]

With the player population available most times of the day there is no real option to get games in reasonable times, sure we could have a ranking system that was zero sum but again without at least ~100 of those good players online at the same time, in the same kind of queue you will have fillers of less skill.

The only real answer to getting "good" games, win or lose, is grouping.
The LFG function is terrible right now, not nearly enough information to get the right people together as there is no description for an LFG entry.
There needs to be a written portion you add and change on the go that states what you are looking for, ei. "LF 3 tier 1 players, have mastered long range mechs" and so on, you still can't guess at the quality of who applies but there are ways to check like the stats on the leaderboard so you pair up with "pugs" in the real sense ( the group you pick up ) and have a go at it, mostly because your unit isn't around, you aren't in one or the unit is causal and you feel like you want results...

[Alexander of Macedon]

That's just the nature of pug matches. As others have said, the playerbase is too small and the tier-up process too easy for there to be that sort of stratification of skill. Look at it as an opportunity to carry harder and do better personally. Your objective isn't to pull your weight and contribute 1/12th of your team's effort, it's to take that AFK assault, those suicidal fools, the lurm assault, the light that tries to facetank a Kodiak-3, and shove them all into your carry sack.

In other words if you're doing enough to break even on your skill shift after a loss, that's what you need to be doing every game if you want to reliably contribute. It's much easier in MWO than in most similar games, too, since you only have 11 teammates rather than 14, 19, or 63 or something. Fewer people means individual ability and coordination matters more.

Most important, of course, is communication. If nobody's stepped up to dropcall the pug match, do it yourself. I've changed near-certain losses into wins just by hitting the mic key and telling people to push/focus important targets, and I've seen other people do the same.

That's all you can do. There's not enough people to always drop with a bunch of really good randoms, deal with it.

[Revis Volek]

Its a combination of Small players base, Tier system not really working as intended/needed and the nature of snowballing in single re spawn games that make the solo Q so dreadful.


We have the trifecta and its half the reason MM doesnt work well. Group Q is actually, more often then not, a much better skill rating for t2-t1 groups if other groups are on. We see top groups most nights over and over again which is what we like.

[EgoSlayer]

oneda, on 02 April 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

What's Tier 1 worth, if you get teams where three ppl run single file into the entire enemy team
(not together but apart) at Minute 14.

First dies at min 14,20. Second at 14. Third runs on open ground into the entire enemy team and dies at min 13.45.

I want a player rate player system.

If anybody plays this abysmally bad and we are down three mechs because of complete brainlessnes then I want to vote that player.

And I want to be able to see open lobbys where you see exactly what kind of players are in their. If players got abysmal rating I will not play with them.

Ever.

They can play among themsevles.
<snip>

As has been mentioned, player population coupled with the upward trending PSR system are the key issues here. To get reasonable match creation time it will loosen the match restrictions. And even without that, there are plenty of Tier 1 and 2 players that really shouldn't be but the match maker can't tell that, any tier 1 = any other tier 1. Which we all know isn't true.

And we certainly don't want an avoid that player voting system. It's far more likely to be abused against the *good* players that people don't want to have to fight against rather than the poor skilled you don't want on your team.
https://arstechnica....r-in-overwatch/

Edited by EgoSlayer, 02 April 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[Amsro]

Because you get to have me on your team!!

[Weeny Machine]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 02 April 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

We do not have enough player.
Matchmaker drops a tier ever other minute while waiting to slap two teams together.
There are currently only 2 real tier matchups.
t1-t4 and t2-t5.

Mind you, it's not always the t4 who's getting killed 1 minute into the game. Sure some just yolo into the enemy and find their t1-t2 party, but more often then not, the t1-t2 guy gets killed early because the rest of his t4 team is busy lobbing lurmz into vegitation or get stuck on pebbles and the likes.

Or the T1-T2 guys get "wtf bbqed" because the rest of the team died in record time and drown in a sea of red. I had matches where I suddenly was gangb4nged and I thought "what was that?!". When I checked the rooster more than 60% of the team was already dead. I understand that you can screw up or the enemy just gets lucky and you die very early - it happens to us all. However, THAT many? I do not even know how they do it? I could only die that fast if I were beelining right into the enemy mass.

[BLOOD WOLF]

El Bandito, on 02 April 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

due to population issue.

what does this mean exactly?

Revis Volek, on 02 April 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Its a combination of Small players base, Tier system not really working as intended/needed and the nature of snowballing in single re spawn games that make the solo Q so dreadful.

like how some people are eliminating other possible answers. The answers could be more complicated. SC2 is the best example I gave to this. It's not really population numbers, we have more than 2000+ players to choose from near peaks.

So SC2 is easy enough. In that game their are different teirs. The MM for the most part only comes into play with ranked matches. 1v1 easy to mactch skills,2v2,3v3,4v4. The larger the number the more time it takes but ideally the wait times should be minimal. With MWO the thing is its accounts for elo and then has to match 24 different players out of a pool of thousands. This is not very efficient, even for the MM which probably does this pretty fast. To compare it, it would be like putting yourself in the place of the MM, and seeing how fast you can match people. Odds are you will be very slow and most likely if you were told after a certain period to start matching people wider in the tier gap to make things faster, instead of trying to look for those specific people.

The MM has very little to do with pop numbers because 50 people don't play this game. more than 2000 do, so that increases the chances that the MM is not going to run out of people to match. Even given all that it may be possible that the number of people in the group/solo total bucket is an odd number, or can't be divisible by 24 that you are that group of people the MM can not find a match for, is a viable explanation.

POP numbers is not a good explanation for the MM, sorry a little off topic.

oneda, on 02 April 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

The match maker isnt doing the job it was intended for.

The MM in its currrent form forces you to play with those kind of players.

Sorry, the MM only job is to find people a match. Now given that it's tries to be as fair as possible. There is no such thing as a perfect MM. Also it doesn't force you to do anything, next time don't hit the button. It just tries to build a match given what it's got.

[FireStoat]

I live in NA, only pick the NA quick drop server, and wait less than one minute to get a match unless it's past 12:00 midnight Pacific time. It doesn't matter what tonnage of mech I pick, it's always that long. If it's after midnight, then it might take under 2 minutes instead.

I will cheerfully wait between 4 to 6 minutes for a match if it kept tier 5 players out of matches that my tier 2 account is in. I'm willing to bet cash money that other higher tier players would enjoy that option as well.

Edit - considering the relatively low number of Tier 5 players showing up in higher tier matches, I can't see how keeping them out of the match and delaying for players of appropriate tiers would do more than double the current wait time, which again, is absurdly fast as it is. I get the feeling that PGI is just stupidly lazy about the issue. The lack of caring is blatant.

Edited by FireStoat, 02 April 2017 - 11:00 AM.

[Alan Davion]

oneda, on 02 April 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

I want a player rate player system.

So you want a system that can be abused just as easily as the current "Report Player" system is?

Yeah.

Good luck with that one sunshine.

[EgoSlayer]

BLOOD WOLF, on 02 April 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

what does this mean exactly?
like how some people are eliminating other possible answers. The answers could be more complicated. SC2 is the best example I gave to this. It's not really population numbers, we have more than 2000+ players to choose from near peaks.

So SC2 is easy enough. In that game their are different teirs. The MM for the most part only comes into play with ranked matches. 1v1 easy to mactch skills,2v2,3v3,4v4. The larger the number the more time it takes but ideally the wait times should be minimal. With MWO the thing is its accounts for elo and then has to match 24 different players out of a pool of thousands. This is not very efficient, even for the MM which probably does this pretty fast. To compare it, it would be like putting yourself in the place of the MM, and seeing how fast you can match people. Odds are you will be very slow and most likely if you were told after a certain period to start matching people wider in the tier gap to make things faster, instead of trying to look for those specific people.

The MM has very little to do with pop numbers because 50 people don't play this game. more than 2000 do, so that increases the chances that the MM is not going to run out of people to match. Even given all that it may be possible that the number of people in the group/solo total bucket is an odd number, or can't be divisible by 24 that you are that group of people the MM can not find a match for, is a viable explanation.

POP numbers is not a good explanation for the MM, sorry a little off topic.

Sorry, the MM only job is to find people a match. Now given that it's tries to be as fair as possible. There is no such thing as a perfect MM. Also it doesn't force you to do anything, next time don't hit the button. It just tries to build a match given what it's got.

Population is the issue, We have 5 tiers and four mech classes used in the criteria to build a match. Your simplistic view of how the match gets built is wrong. I again suggest you educate yourself on how things work before making wildly off base assumptions. The paging Karl Berg thread has details on exactly how the match maker builds the matches, and it's nothing like you described.

Simple example - say there are 2000 players in the queue(a extremely high estimate - since even at double steam count numbers there are ~3000 Playing - that's not in queue only most would be in matches) and you want to build a tier 3 match. With a rough bell curve of players (10/20/40/20/10) that means about 800 (40%) tier 3 in queue. Then of that 800 you have to apply 3/3/3/3 rule on mech class and see if you can build a match of 24. Now if you use a more realistic number like 800 total in queue (which is still 40% in queue 60% in matches) it's much harder to make a match. Now imagine the problems when your pool is on of the 10% categories and there are only 200 people that meet the tier requirement.

[Valleric]

Take bad players under yo wing and teach them. Putting the power of rankings in other players hands is a horrible idea because humans are petty and rarely see things objectively. No on wants to be shunned and that's not a good way to treat others. Treat bad players with kindness. You can't win em all and bad **** is always gnna happen. Be a leader and turn bad players into good ones.

Edited by Valleric, 02 April 2017 - 11:47 AM.

[xe N on]

EgoSlayer, on 02 April 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Then of that 800 you have to apply 3/3/3/3 rule on mech class and see if you can build a match of 24.

There is no 3/3/3/3 rule anymore in QP - and that already for a long time. When did you play the last time in QP? Hell, there are games with teams with 5 or more assaults.

There is only the rule that both teams get equal amount of weight classes. But even this could lead to 5 x 80 tons on team A and 5x100 tons on team B.

It's definitly the match maker and not the player numbers ... because we have no bell curve distribution for tiers but a lot of tier 2 or 1 that doesn't belong there (me included).

Any 1 button spammer with a LRM assault mech can become tier 1 ... And that are players if set up against assault player that would be real tier 1 just drive down the whole team.

Edited by xe N on, 02 April 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

xe N on, on 02 April 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

There is no 3/3/3/3 rule anymore in QP - and that already for a long time.

There is only the rule that both teams get equal amount of weight classes. But even this could lead to 5 x 80 tons on team A and 5x100 tons on team B.

Yes there is still the 4x3 rule in QP, it's just the first release valve that is removed if the time to get a match is over 1 minute, and I believe there is a soft lock on no more than 4 (might be 5) of a class that is another release valve that gets loosened when there are new mechs released.

There isn't the 4x3 in group queue because it's balanced by group size tonnage instead of class based, so the match criteria used in group queue is the avg PSR of the group and the group size.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 02 April 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[xe N on]

EgoSlayer, on 02 April 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Yes there is still the 4x3 rule in QP, it's just the first release valve that is removed if the time to get a match is over 1 minute, a

Valves are permanently open and therefore there is no 3/3/3/3 rule anymore. This is why:

Let's imagine an assault player queueing QP. He waits for more than 60 secs because there are 4 assault and 5 heavy players at the same time looking for a match and not enought players. The matchmaker releases the valves.

Now after 1:10 min wait time for the assault/heavy player an light and a med player enter the queue. The matchmaker forms a team with for example 5 Assaults, 5 heavies, 1 med and 1 light.

For the assaults there is a wait time of 1:10. But the light and the med player instantly gets a match so do not have a wait time but nevertheless will be thrown in a match with open valves.

So, assuming this type of matchmaking for 2000 - 3000 players, you can assume that the valves for the matchmaker are permanently open, because there are constant more heavies and assault players than med and light players.

The only effect is maybe a longer wait time. The result is the same: The matchmaker has no other choice than to permanently open valves.

Since I play 90% meds and usually have low wait times but are thrown in teams usually consisting of more than 3 heavies and 3 assaults and often no lights at all I can empirically confirm this.

Edited by xe N on, 02 April 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

xe N on, on 02 April 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

Valves are permanently open. This is why:

<snip>

Maybe in your experience - but even so that's completely different than not having the 3/3/3/3 valve at all like you stated. Only time I have seen more than 4 of any class in QP ( the soft cap once the release valve is open) in a match is when there is a new mech released and the queue times on that class get too high and they increase the cap. E.g. Supernova.

For people in tier 3 the likelihood of all the release valves hitting is significantly lower because there is a larger player pool It's the tier 5 and tier 1 that are most likely to always see all the release valves going off because of not enough people

This is assuming that there is a bell curve distribution of population, which I'll admit is not likely because of the upward trend of PSR. I'd bet the center of the PSR curve is more in the Tier 2 range rather than Tier 3. But that would only shift where the most matches occur without release valves.

Edit: clarification on the 3/3/3/3 valve.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 02 April 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[xe N on]

EgoSlayer, on 02 April 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Maybe in your experience - but even so that's completely different than not having the valve at all like you stated.

I did not state that there are no valves, but only there is no 3/3/3/3 rule anymore. And that is because valves need to be permanently open to account for the weight class distribution that (usually) is: heavy > assault > med >>> light. That trend is - at least to my knowledge - equal for all tiers.

Edited by xe N on, 02 April 2017 - 01:14 PM.