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I Think People Don't Know How Much Skill Tree Helps New Players/accounts


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#1 JC Daxion

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:37 PM

So much of what i see of the complaints about cost and time are from people that have either 100's of mechs or have been playing for years. I think they just don't understand what a long grind it is to outfit mechs with modules these days.

I started my alt Clan account when steam launched. My main account is IS only, my alt is Clan only, so basically Two main accounts. I've been playing my IS account for 4 years now, and over 8k drops.. I still have IS tech modules that i need to unlock. Only a couple and have yet to even upgrade my UAV's at another 30k GXP. I like variety so i have many mechs, with very unique load outs, and use tons of different weapon modules. Just getting 1 range, and 1 recharge of every single weapon module is a huge cost.. Over 100m right there.


But cost is not as much of an issue as time.. My new clan account which is only about 16 months old now, has so much unlocking still to do, along with just buying even a single module. Just getting the modules to build 6 mechs.. Is well over 100m.. If i even had the GXP to do so.. I have almost all my weapon modules to unlock still, along with every consumable outside of the cool shot 9 and airstrike. I only unlocked a couple of mech modules.. and i have over 2k drops by this point.. (i think.. say 350 hours of play)

Under the new system rules, I'd beable to fully set up around half the mechs i have on the alt account (33) and not need to spend another year+ grinding GXP.

My IS account won't fair as well, but i'd certainly get back enough cash to level up all my top played mechs, and enough left over to almost get 1/2 of them to master.. though i'll be honest and say the 1/2 thats left are not even mastered anyway, or are mechs i just don't really play.


My point is, i do think people forget how long and hard the module grind is in MWO, even if you can swap um. Getting weapon modules and mech modules for a drop deck + random mechs with swapping especially if you play both clans and IS, is going to cost you around 200m at the very least.. That is 40 mechs full set up under the new system.


Anyways.. I just was pondering this last night as i was picking up a single as i finally unlocked both ERML modules on my clanner to stick in a nova.. and thought.. My god i need to grind GXP for another year to even use the modules that i want. I kinda take for granted i already have nearly 1 of every module on my IS side. It's a huge difference to say the least.

#2 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:43 PM

No one was attacking the skill tree's idea. The outrageous costs were attacked (and adjusted to reasonable levels), the functionality and layout was attacked (which they will hopefully find a compromise to address that), and the strength of values of the skill tree and in particular mech quirk nerfs were criticized, as they have huge implications for balance, or rather, blowing the balance too hard towards the clans and leaving a bunch of forgotton IS mechs in its wake (which I hope PGI realizes, because if not, gg)

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 03 April 2017 - 05:51 PM.


#3 justcallme A S H

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 05:49 PM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 03 April 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

No one was attacking the skill tree's idea. The outrageous costs were attacked (and adjusted to reasonable levels), the functionality and layout was attacked (which they will hopefully find a compromise to address that), and the strength of values of the skill tree and in particular mech quirk nerfs were criticized, as they have huge implications for balance, or rather, blowing the balance too hard towards the clans and leaving a bunch of forgotton IS mechs in its wake (which I hpe PGI realizes, because if not, gg)


Correct.

It was the implementation that was the issue. I haven't seen many say Skill Tree in it's idea, was bad.

If people are impacted cause they have more than one account, well, that is kinda a "your issue" problem. My account in 18 months has 100 mechs, all the useful modules/buffs are unlocked (stuff like LRM range, is obviously not) and half my mechs have modules on them. Most have enough spare XP to master under the new system. I know if I ran two accounts then that wouldn't be the case, given splitting the resources, premium time, MC, GXP etc etc.

#4 LordNothing

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 06:10 PM

i think the last minute compromises were good enough. what bugs me is that pgi likes to abandon ship right when everything is finally getting close to passable. it takes about 4 weeks between the time pgi concedes to the salt miners and the salt miners figuring out they were successful.

id actually keep a soft version of the 3 variant rule. you can still take a single mech all the way to the end of the skill tree, but if you own multiple variants you get xp bonuses to reduce the grind. for previously mastered mechs, you get similar bonuses on your xp refund based on how many variants you had mastered. id also have xp node unlocks permanent with a separate cbill activation cost per each mech. the total cost to activate all the nodes on a mech should be around 6 million so you can re-master several mechs with the refund cost from a single set of modules. this solves most of the refund issues, helps the new players, and makes sense.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 April 2017 - 06:14 PM.


#5 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 06:17 PM

It was definitely the implementation.

Another thing to consider is that with modules, did anyone actual unlock a module w/multiple levels and not maxed them out at that very moment? Never mind you had to locate the module you wanted, unlock it and max it out, then go and purchase it by equipping it. The pain if you did not max it out, having to go back in and look for it then max it out (shudders).

Though the overall benefit might be less than the current setup, having all of that on one screen, even though a long screen will be nice, and easier for new players to navigate.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 03 April 2017 - 06:19 PM.


#6 cazidin

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:11 PM

The skill tree, as proposed by PGI as it stood, was not at all intuitive or welcoming to new players who are heavily penalized because of the large c-bill cost, even after 2 reductions.

#7 Amsro

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:15 PM

Imagine how great it would be for new players if you didn't need to level mechs at all?

Like no "skills" at all.

Mech is as good as when purchased.

#8 cazidin

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:21 PM

View PostAmsro, on 03 April 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imagine how great it would be for new players if you didn't need to level mechs at all?

Like no "skills" at all.

Mech is as good as when purchased.


You don't mean like every other MechWarrior title released, do you?

#9 Amsro

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:31 PM

View Postcazidin, on 03 April 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:


You don't mean like every other MechWarrior title released, do you?


Yeah, meanwhile they got the community arguing over which grind system is better. Posted Image

Edited by Amsro, 03 April 2017 - 08:32 PM.


#10 Johnny Z

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 08:38 PM

View PostAmsro, on 03 April 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imagine how great it would be for new players if you didn't need to level mechs at all?

Like no "skills" at all.

Mech is as good as when purchased.


I think if the skill tree simulates upgrading the mech in the mechbay with superior equipment and fine tuning then that is a great mechanism and even realistic. Looking forward to it.

I cannot stand levels grinds though. Where a lvl 50 can be stronger than 350 lvl 1's for example. No realism there. One sword may be way better than another but realism is out the window with items and lvl grinds. I don't think this is whats being done in this game and I couldn't be happier about that.

They could have went with a linear lvl grind like countless other games but they didn't.

The 3 mech lvl systems was an ok place holder, but good riddance.

Looks like the new skill tree is being done the best way possible so far and that's great.

Although they are working on it still so who knows whats going to happen.

To the topic, yes I agree, it could or would be a game changer and improve the game for new players, and existing players as well.

* Yes another point form run on reply, so what. :)

Edited by Johnny Z, 03 April 2017 - 08:49 PM.


#11 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:17 PM

Ah crap. Some one had to say Skill Tree... .... #triggeredcomps in 3....2.....1......

#12 Carl Vickers

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

TBH as much as we need a skill tree the one PGI was peddling wouldnt help a new person at all.

New Player - OMGWTF am i supposed to choose on this god awful tree with massive root system, uninstall.

Posted Image

#13 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 09:32 PM

View PostCarl Vickers, on 03 April 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

TBH as much as we need a skill tree the one PGI was peddling wouldnt help a new person at all.

New Player - OMGWTF am i supposed to choose on this god awful tree with massive root system, uninstall.

Posted Image

while I didn't find the Skill Tree the unmitigated disaster some of my betters claim it was...this was indeed my biggest concern and one I posted both here on the forums and on Russ's Twitter. But that was more to the cost of ReSpeccing, not the actual basics of the tree itself (which needed tuning, but actually worked largely like Chris said in the Town Hall).

The Refund, ReSpecs and need for Tutorial were indeed highly in need of addressing.

#14 Ted Wayz

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 02:27 AM

If it helps new players spend $$$ then it is a good idea.

If it disincentives players who have spent $$$ to spend more then it is a bad idea given they have already established they will spend money,

Just economics really.

#15 Bud Crue

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 04:06 AM

View PostJC Daxion, on 03 April 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

So much of what i see of the complaints about cost and time are from people that have either 100's of mechs or have been playing for years. I think they just don't understand what a long grind it is to outfit mechs with modules these days...


Your thread title suggest that you believe the skills tree to be a benefit to new players, yet your OP is essentially a summary of your view that grinding XP and Cbills (for module purchase) sucks.

Yes the grind sucks. The skills tree as it was proposed to be implemented however, was in no way, shape, or form good for the potential new player.

Consider: You're a new player. Vague-to lorenerd level understanding of the BT universe, previous mechwarrior games, etc. but you are new to this game. So, you play a few matches in your first mech and you have say 10,000 XP to blow one the new handi-dandy skill tree. Hmm, what to do... Let's see...

Well, its the player's first mech, maybe a metamechs build?
So do we jump into the weapons tree and throw everything we have at that branch?
Or maybe go to operations and get some better heat performance, cuz as a new player I have terrible trigger discipline and those metamechs builds run hot...or maybe I should go for the infotech branch cuz as a new player I liked to run out ahead of everyone so I might as well be useful.
But if I'm going to do that I bet the mobility branch would be way more useful in keeping me alive!
Wait I only have enough for like a dozen nodes...phffttt...what the hell does 1.5% range really do for me anyway?
Or 3% velocity, or +2% torso pitch...torso pitch?! Who cares about torso pitch?! What does -7% quick ignition do?! My mech is running when the match starts...WTH?!
I just want to shoot stompy robots!! Screw this? Why is it so complex? Wait? What?! 91 nodes!! ARE YOU FU**ING KIDDING ME?!! I HAVE TO DO THIS 91 TIMES!??
No thanks. I think I will go play something that doesn't have such a mindnumbing grind.

Yeah, the new player is gonna just love the skills tree and its lack of grind.

#16 CygnusX7

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 06:18 AM

Other than not owning a set of 3, how can you not skill up the mechs you own? Besides playing with load outs and shooting other mechs there's nothing else to do in this game but complete the skills on your mechs.

#17 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 06:19 AM

The skill tree is a great concept, but it's even more grind and it serves as a functional nerf to existing mechs..

I love my Marauder 3R. Seismic, Radar Derp, some PPC modules and go. The new system doesnt let me do that, there simply arent enough slots/points to allow me to re-buy what i have on the mech. If i could, I'd be happy. If i could choose to not buy some of that stuff and buy different cool stuff instead, I'd be happy. But the skill tree as presented places a huge tax on getting this abilities you want in the form of having to buy bits of abilities you didn't want along the way.

So since its a nerf, it didnt gain enough popularity. I'm sure theyll work it out eventually, but for now they've shelved it, and i think thats a good thing.

#18 Sunstruck

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 06:29 AM

When PGI first started talking about skill tree, there was a kind of miscommunication that all IS mechs would not have any quirks, which is totally false in the skill tree system as is. So there was a lot of arguing about the details when it came to skill tree, and with each revision its gotten better.

I think overall its a good idea, because you the player can use it to help out underperforming mechs, like skilling up jump jets on the Highlander, or the heat quirks on a Black Knight. It adds some uniqueness to mechs for sure, you never know quite what to expect.

But I actually tried to grind xp on a NEW mech on the PTS server (the Gray Death) to see how hard it would be, and it was veeery rough going untill they dropped the skill point XP cost.

The problem is that if you loose games or do poorly (and you will with a new mech) you don't get hardly any XP. You need to get kills and wins to make any real progress with skill points.

So a good game, ya you get 1-2 skill points, (out of the 90 something) bad games, it'll still take you 8-10 bad games to get a skill point.

#19 C E Dwyer

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 06:31 AM

View PostJC Daxion, on 03 April 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:




The grind is the same it's been before steam, There was a change shortly before it went live, ages before steam was introduced.

The biggest issue for people is they want premium X.P, C-bills while playing for free and don't like it, when P.G.I stay silent.

Same with the Comp players expecting P.G.I to waive the cost of running servers so they don't have to pay for their 1v1 fights.

Edited by Cathy, 04 April 2017 - 06:31 AM.


#20 Almond Brown

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 06:53 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 04 April 2017 - 04:06 AM, said:

Your thread title suggest that you believe the skills tree to be a benefit to new players, yet your OP is essentially a summary of your view that grinding XP and Cbills (for module purchase) sucks.

Yes the grind sucks. The skills tree as it was proposed to be implemented however, was in no way, shape, or form good for the potential new player.

Consider: You're a new player. Vague-to lorenerd level understanding of the BT universe, previous mechwarrior games, etc. but you are new to this game. So, you play a few matches in your first mech and you have say 10,000 XP to blow one the new handi-dandy skill tree. Hmm, what to do... Let's see...

Well, its the player's first mech, maybe a metamechs build?
So do we jump into the weapons tree and throw everything we have at that branch?
Or maybe go to operations and get some better heat performance, cuz as a new player I have terrible trigger discipline and those metamechs builds run hot...or maybe I should go for the infotech branch cuz as a new player I liked to run out ahead of everyone so I might as well be useful.
But if I'm going to do that I bet the mobility branch would be way more useful in keeping me alive!
Wait I only have enough for like a dozen nodes...phffttt...what the hell does 1.5% range really do for me anyway?
Or 3% velocity, or +2% torso pitch...torso pitch?! Who cares about torso pitch?! What does -7% quick ignition do?! My mech is running when the match starts...WTH?!
I just want to shoot stompy robots!! Screw this? Why is it so complex? Wait? What?! 91 nodes!! ARE YOU FU**ING KIDDING ME?!! I HAVE TO DO THIS 91 TIMES!??
No thanks. I think I will go play something that doesn't have such a mindnumbing grind.

Yeah, the new player is gonna just love the skills tree and its lack of grind.


All that does is assume every new player is a complete idiot right out of the gate. Likely not the best representation possible. The same could be said for any new player of say, any strategy/adventure game on the market (Xcom is a beast for upgrades and outfitting) with huge build trees with massive different routes and selections for multiple characters. How do "new players" deal with those games? MWO's Skill tree in comparison is "moderate" at best.

Maybe give the "new players" some credit where credit is due.





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