156 replies to this topic

[CK16]

Ok tired of seeing this sh!t thrown out every time a new hero is released, especially a Clan Omni....there is always the PTW argument....because anything that is new is usually consider this....Yet there is the flip side....an omni pod offering nothing new is deemed useless and redundant and people yell saying it's worthless to buy....

So you guys who are all knowing on this....make your own hero mechs that are not PTW based off the recent Wave 2 & 3 heros.....I dare you to come up with something not pay to win while not useless....Good luck!

Edited by CK16, 05 April 2017 - 04:25 AM.

[Athom83]

Like I've been trying to tell those people, it gives more options. While they keep seeing it as "outright better", they fail to actually point out how its better besides "hardpoints it didn't have before". Ooooh, a new variant of a mech with new hardpoint, so overpowered before its even released. Unfair, p2w, give me for free.

[Mcgral18]

Yes


Make a Cbill variant which is the same
No P2W
No bonuses, but same in game capabilities

Pay for the Cbill bonus and less grind
Pay for early access, as the Cbill variant can be delayed release as with any other GrabDeal
Wait to get identical in game performance

[The6thMessenger]

The thing is that P2W is cancer to a F2P game, kind of defeats the purpose of being "Free". Basically it's what we (I) think to be bad business practice.

Heroes should mostly be a different option, even be precious snow-flakes, than the complete go-to for optimization just for the sake of making outshadowed mechs viable once more. Being different means people have a reason to go for them, but does not mean that other options becomes overshadowed because it works so well.

Also:

The6thMessenger, on 21 January 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

LORE:

Spoiler

HBK-IIC LM "LA MUERTA"

The Hunchback IIC is the refit of the venerable Hunchback chassis. Six tons of armor, paltry ammunition, and lacks long range weapons, even slow movement speed, it was a last ditch effort for warriors to die in the glory of battle -- or so it was thought.These suicidal mechs and their suicidal pilots are most likely blown to bits, often beyond repair, almost always beyond recognition even. But ever so often, bits and pieces can be retrieved, and piece-by-piece of information can be uncovered. The think-tank of the Comstars led by Yuna Cassel, upon their endevour to understand Clan Technology, they retrieved all they can from the destroyed Hunchback IICs, but eventually the true intent was uncovered.

Among the errors of piecing the pieces together was the HBK-IIC, from a female Pilot of the Clan Smoke Jaguar that died. The ammunition was exhausted as she fought with reckless abandon, much of the forces of Inner Sphere was decimated by this singular Hunchback. Despite all her efforts she instead bled to death inside the cockpit, leaving this badly wrecked Hunchback IIC somewhat intact, and so her body for her story to be known.

"La Muerta" it was called. With the weight of the war upon her shoulders, Yuna took it upon her to restore this singular HBK-IIC in her spare time as a monument to honor the female warrior, with limited intact samples from hundreds of destroyed Hunchback IICs, she could only piece together different variants together. She vowed to end the Clan Smoke Jaguar with the very own mech they sent for death.

Armed with a UAC20 on the left torso, a ton of ammunition in the left torso, one the head, and one on the left leg at a total of 3 tons of ammunition. Under the UAC20 is a single Machine-Gun with 1/2 ton of ammunition for anti-infantry role. Two SRM6 on the right torso linked to the Artemis fire-control, with a ton of ammunition, two tons of ammunition upon the right leg at a total of three. Four ER-Small-Lasers, one on each arm and two on the center torso. One Class-4 Jump-Jets on each side leg at a total of two. 7.25 tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor, upon an Endo-Steel skeleton, with an XL250 engine it's much faster.

Well, i'd call it "Grid Iron IIC", but i had a story for it.

Your thoughts? Would you like a Grid-Iron-ish hero again?

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Yes


Make a Cbill variant which is the same
No P2W
No bonuses, but same in game capabilities

Pay for the Cbill bonus and less grind
Pay for early access, as the Cbill variant can be delayed release as with any other GrabDeal
Wait to get identical in game performance

Or we could compromise with PGI and just use (less) MC to pay for specific hero pods. It's much more accessible, but still requires a bit of money still.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 April 2017 - 04:34 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Yes


Make a Cbill variant which is the same
No P2W
No bonuses, but same in game capabilities

Pay for the Cbill bonus and less grind
Pay for early access, as the Cbill variant can be delayed release as with any other GrabDeal
Wait to get identical in game performance

Being a cheapskate, I agree with this in principle.

But I'm not sure if PGI would entertain the idea.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 05 April 2017 - 04:34 AM.

[PyckenZot]

People are just salty that their fav chasis can't field the same stuff. MWO has enough mechs to build similar things to the new hero mechs. The only exception I can think of is the loyalty Summoner pod. A heavy dual PPC poptart with such good placement is unique.

Let the tears flow, I need salt for my fries.

[Athom83]

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 04:31 AM, said:

Make a Cbill variant which is the same
No P2W
No bonuses, but same in game capabilities

Pay for the Cbill bonus and less grind
Pay for early access, as the Cbill variant can be delayed release as with any other GrabDeal
Wait to get identical in game performance

Thank you for proving my point.

[Widowmaker1981]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

Like I've been trying to tell those people, it gives more options. While they keep seeing it as "outright better", they fail to actually point out how its better besides "hardpoints it didn't have before". Ooooh, a new variant of a mech with new hardpoint, so overpowered before its even released. Unfair, p2w, give me for free.

If you cant see how giving the Gargoyle torso hardpoints, the Ebon Jaguar the ability to run 2 large ballistics in torso sections and increasing the Hellbringers high mounted torso energy points to 6 are outright improving the chassis, i dont know what to tell you.

at least in the case of the Hellbringer i guarantee you the absolute best build for the chassis will include the hero pod. Thats not opinion, its fact. (im not going to get into a debate about the other chassis pods being included in the absolute best build, because they involve opinions on what type of build is best for that chassis)

I hesitate to call it pay to win, as such - because you could easily make the argument that a Night Gyr (for example) is a superior mech to the Hellbringer, and as such its not possible for any Hellbringer to be P2W. Its definitely pay to optimise though, and thats a slippery slope.

edit: quoted the wrong person

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 05 April 2017 - 04:58 AM.

[El Bandito]

CK16, on 05 April 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Ok tired of seeing this sh!t thrown out every time a new hero is released, especially a Clan Omni....there is always the PTW argument....because anything that is new is usually consider this....Yet there is the flip side....an omni pod offering nothing new is deemed useless and redundant and people yell saying it's worthless to buy....

So you guys who are all knowing on this....make your own hero mechs that are not PTW based off the recent Wave 2 & 3 heros.....I dare you to come up with something not pay to win while not useless....Good luck!

Easily done. Hellbringer Hero with 1 missile 1 energy arms on both sides. Now you can have 4 missile slots when combined with B's RT, with up to 6 energy slots for backup--which is completely new to the Hellbringer, while retaining the ECM. There is nothing powercreeping about it, while this config gives the Hellbringer new SRM brawler/LRM build. You can go up to 5 missile with A-LT but that means sacrificing ECM + 3 energy slots.

Being different while not powercreeping is a very simple concept--something PGI continues to ignore while chasing after our money.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

C bill alternatives that do the same thing, without the hero bonuses

It's the only way out at this point, as they've dug themselves in too deep

[Brizna]

Yeah, power creep is so bad with the new heroes, for example MLX hero is gonna get two energy mounts in a torso!! The thing is gonna have pairs of ACHs for lunch!!

PS: In a serious note, PGI does have the habit of "fixing" under performing mechs with P2W: Urbanmech Hero, Loyalty Suckoner, now MLX and I am sure I forget some other bad mech that got some buffs barred by a pay wall. Not exactly a fix for anyone not willing to spend some cash but certainly not a real P2W, since all those mech remain far from being the best, they just became more usable.

[Mcgral18]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Thank you for proving my point.

Your point is bad, and blatantly false

[Widowmaker1981]

Brizna, on 05 April 2017 - 05:05 AM, said:

Yeah, power creep is so bad with the new heroes, for example MLX hero is gonna get two energy mounts in a torso!! The thing is gonna have pairs of ACHs for lunch!!

PS: In a serious note, PGI does have the habit of "fixing" under performing mechs with P2W: Urbanmech Hero, Loyalty Suckoner, now MLX and I am sure I forget some other bad mech that got some buffs barred by a pay wall. Not exactly a fix for anyone not willing to spend some cash but certainly not a real P2W, since all those mech remain far from being the best, they just became more usable.

Loyalty ones arent such a problem because the pods eventually come out for Cbills (though the long delay isnt great).

Hero pods will never, as it stands, be available without paying the full rather expensive $$ price for the whole mech.

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2017 - 04:56 AM, said:

...
Being different while not powercreeping is a very simple concept--something PGI continues to ignore while chasing after our money.

Is your Helbie Hero interesting enough for you to buy it? Different people have different opinion but a Hero needs to be somewhat capable in itself.

Thus the problem with Omni Heroes that those interesting Hero pods can be used and combined with others which have greater powercreeping potential than BattleMech Heroes.

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 05 April 2017 - 05:13 AM, said:

Is your Helbie Hero interesting enough for you to buy it? Different people have different opinion but a Hero needs to be somewhat capable in itself.

Thus the problem with Omni Heroes that those interesting Hero pods can be used and combined with others which have greater powercreeping potential than BattleMech Heroes.

Sure it is interesting. ECM Heavy that can LRM? Sign me up! For others with different taste, it can be configured as sneaky Splat ECM Heavy mech, something Clans do not have. Nothing powercreeping compared to its optimum config (unlike PGI's Hellbie Hero), while retaining interesting flavor.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[Athom83]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

If you cant see how giving the Gargoyle torso hardpoints, the Ebon Jaguar the ability to run 2 large ballistics in torso sections and increasing the Hellbringers high mounted torso energy points to 6 are outright improving the chassis, i dont know what to tell you.

Improve the chassis, yes. Outright P2W? No. There is not a single build you can do in these hero mechs that you cannot do with another mech that is free. Heck even the Hellbringer Hero loses its ECM while only having 4 torso energy weapons (it pays to actually look at what you can equip on them instead of glimpsing at the pictures), and you can only push that to 6 with the Prime/F(C) torso and the F(C)/A head.

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

at least in the case of the Hellbringer i guarantee you the absolute best build for the chassis will include the hero pod. Thats not opinion, its fact. (im not going to get into a debate about the other chassis pods being included in the absolute best build, because they involve opinions on what type of build is best for that chassis)

And the ultimate build will also include the Prime or F(C) torso with 3 energy weapons and an ECM. The only thing "new" for the Hellbringer hero is a 2 energy RT and missile arms.

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

Your point is bad, and blatantly false

Please point out where. You're still proving my point.

[El Bandito]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

And the ultimate build will also include the Prime or F(C) torso with 3 energy weapons and an ECM. The only thing "new" for the Hellbringer hero is a 2 energy RT and missile arms.

That 2 energy RT makes all the difference, since Loyalty version will be available for C-Bills later this year, but Hero omnipod will never be available for C-Bills. Which means non-money payers will be forever left behind in Hellbringer laser vomit department.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[Athom83]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

That 2 energy RT makes all the difference, since Loyalty version will be available for C-Bills later this year, but Hero omnipod will never be available for C-Bills. Which means non-money payers will be forever left behind in Hellbringer laser vomit department.

Personally, I prefer my lasers in my arms. Gives me a lot of fine and fast control for aiming on really fast enemies. Plus, I can actually aim up and down.

[Widowmaker1981]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

Improve the chassis, yes. Outright P2W? No. There is not a single build you can do in these hero mechs that you cannot do with another mech that is free. Heck even the Hellbringer Hero loses its ECM while only having 4 torso energy weapons (it pays to actually look at what you can equip on them instead of glimpsing at the pictures), and you can only push that to 6 with the Prime/F(C) torso and the F(C)/A head.

WTF are you talking about?

The best Hellbringer build will be HBR-PRIME, add one ERML to the RT with the remaining ton, or some very similar variation to that. Note that it keeps ECM. With the loyalty pod its already the best Clan laser vomit platform in the game, this just takes it further into the lead, imo. These are Omnimechs, no one who understands the game cares what builds can be made with pure pods from one variant.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Personally, I prefer my lasers in my arms. Gives me a lot of fine and fast control for aiming on really fast enemies. Plus, I can actually aim up and down.

and thus, you are not equipped to understand what exactly makes torso mounts on the hellbringer a meta feature, especially with the new p2w pod

good day to you

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 05 April 2017 - 05:26 AM.