156 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

I looked at the heros, they just don't seem any better than the CBill pods available, just different. Less chicken little, more fried chicken.

[El Bandito]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Personally, I prefer my lasers in my arms. Gives me a lot of fine and fast control for aiming on really fast enemies. Plus, I can actually aim up and down.

You can do what you want, but the fact of the matter is that the meta build (the most viable build that is recognized by the majority of players) relies on the high-mounted torsi mounts. There is no disputing that, what so ever.

[Mcgral18]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

Improve the chassis, yes. Outright P2W? No. There is not a single build you can do in these hero mechs that you cannot do with another mech that is free. Heck even the Hellbringer Hero loses its ECM while only having 4 torso energy weapons (it pays to actually look at what you can equip on them instead of glimpsing at the pictures), and you can only push that to 6 with the Prime/F(C) torso and the F(C)/A head.

And the ultimate build will also include the Prime or F(C) torso with 3 energy weapons and an ECM. The only thing "new" for the Hellbringer hero is a 2 energy RT and missile arms.


Please point out where. You're still proving my point.

Seriously bro?
You said it yourself in two posts on this page alone.
Pods which are improvements over Free options, only obtainable with $$
You do understand that, correct?

Fully torso Helbie, which means an extra heatsink because no armor wasted on an arm
Which means the premium robot has both more cooling, AND higher mounts than their peasant counterpart.



Is this gonna be like your 18 DPS rac5 again?

[B0oN]

Pay to drive early ? HELL YES !
Pay to win ? Mjeaeeaaaaääähhh ... nope .

If OP, PGI gotz the nurfhammer ... see former "TimberGOD"

[Bishop Steiner]

CK16, on 05 April 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Ok tired of seeing this sh!t thrown out every time a new hero is released, especially a Clan Omni....there is always the PTW argument....because anything that is new is usually consider this....Yet there is the flip side....an omni pod offering nothing new is deemed useless and redundant and people yell saying it's worthless to buy....

So you guys who are all knowing on this....make your own hero mechs that are not PTW based off the recent Wave 2 & 3 heros.....I dare you to come up with something not pay to win while not useless....Good luck!

and at least interesting enough to be worth buying.

I think riffing off Pariah's conversation last night, the Shadowcat
1x ERLL (RA)
1x ERLL (LA)
2x ATM3 (LT)
4 tons ATM ammo
2 DHS

(And if I had my way, rip off the blasted MASC... but that wouldn't make people happy)

Yes, a unique pod still behind a paywall. Not perfect. But then, as Pariah argues, ECM is pretty much the default LT on the Scat, as literally there is no other choice. Now one has one, a unique offensive, or the go to defensive.

Not perfect, no, but unless PGI does what Kanajashi says and just puts all Hero Pods up for CBIlls (which I would be fine with... ), or we simply have all heroes boring retreads of what is already out there, with a 30% bonus (in which case, outside of the all but defunct FW; why would the owner of any Wave or Loyalty Chassis cough up money for a new Hero, when they already have a 30% cbill maker in that chassis?)

Simple truth is they HAVE to do something to make them actualyl interesting (though TBH how they continue to fall so flat on the Assaults is a mystery to me), or no one will buy them. And even "sidegrades" if it offers something unique, will be blasted as P2W.

Which is why I think Kana is on to something. Allow the Heroes their unique pods, their patterns, maybe geometry, along with 30% cbill bonus. Maybe sweeten the pack with some decals, etc. But make the pods available for Cbills. Maybe still give them the usual 3 month or so window before they hit the general market so people can enjoy their short term exclusivity, if people still need the pot sweeter. This also opens the door for offering Hero versions of Battlemechs for Cbills, sans any patterns, geometry, cbill bonuses or the like.

[Skipmagnet]

The E-slots on the MLX hero's torso are pay2compete. Because no one wins piloting a Mist Lynx.

[Snazzy Dragon]

eyeballs, on 05 April 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

The E-slots on the MLX hero's torso are pay2compete. Because no one wins piloting a Mist Lynx.

Yeonne would disagree with you.

Mist lynx is good, because it's one of the few lights that spread damage all over. And now it will have either more guns, or more guns + ECM

Its only drawback is pod space and speed, and inability to boat spl

This last part is going to be remedied, and will revolutionize the chassis

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 05 April 2017 - 05:50 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 05:25 AM, said:

These are Omnimechs, no one who understands the game cares what builds can be made with pure pods from one variant.

Yup.

Though this also IMO, reinforces the Set of 8 quirks as a good idea (at least as long as we have quirks). As you already said, the Meta Crowd will munchkin the pods to optimal configs anyhow... no reason to also give them the best quirks on top of that, leave those as a bone for people who maybe don't desire to run full meta. (I know this is very counter to Competitive thought, but, eh, hardly the first time I've not really cared about that)

Snazzy Dragon, on 05 April 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Yeonne would disagree with you.

Mist lynx is good, because it's one of the few lights that spread damage all over. And now it will have either more guns, or more guns + ECM

Its only drawback is pod space and speed, and inability to boat spl

This last part is going to be remedied, and will revolutionize the chassis

Well, and that it's arms usually evaporate within 2 seconds of contact.... taking it's ECM and weapons with it. Now at least it has some guns that might last 5 seconds.

[Khobai]

this is why we need negative quirks

if the new 2E right torso for the hellbringer had a negative quirk I dont think people would feel it was P2W

the only way you can balance the omnipod system is to put positive quirks on omnipods that arnt good enough and negative quirks on omnipods that are too good. And no quirks on balanced omnipods.

i really dont get why crybabies were so opposed to negative quirks. especially since theyre necessary for balancing omnipods. without negative quirks we now have a min/max situation where certain omnipods are outright better than others, and if those omnipods happen to be on hero mechs, its pay2win.

negative quirks were the solution. PGI needs to bring them back to balance out the huge disparity between omnipods.

Edited by Khobai, 05 April 2017 - 05:58 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Khobai, on 05 April 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

this is why we need negative quirks

if the 2E hardpoint on the hellbringer had a negative quirk I dont think people would feel it was P2W

It's an ugly solution which could work.

Also makes an Omni Hero less interesting so there would be less incentive for people to buy it.

[Battlemaster56]

Khobai, on 05 April 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

this is why we need negative quirks

if the new 2E right torso for the hellbringer had a negative quirk I dont think people would feel it was P2W

the only way you can balance the omnipod system is to put positive quirks on omnipods that arnt good enough and negative quirks on omnipods that are too good. And no quirks on balanced omnipods.

i really dont get why crybabies were so opposed to negative quirks. especially since theyre necessary for balancing omnipods. without negative quirks we now have a min/max situation where certain omnipods are outright better than others, and if those omnipods happen to be on hero mechs, its pay2win.

I don't see the point of adding negative quirks at all, last time their was negative quirks it barely affect the mech at all, and while it seems nice it also put off people buying them in turn hurt pgi. The hellbringer hero gonna b hot doing a full 2lpl and 3 er medium build since you sacrifice some heat for the build, and the dual guass ebon jag won't have enough ammo to sustian a long period plus the it making hitting the st on that much more easier. But that's my take of it.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 05 April 2017 - 06:01 AM.

[Paigan]

CK16, on 05 April 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Ok tired of seeing this sh!t thrown out every time a new hero is released, especially a Clan Omni....there is always the PTW argument....because anything that is new is usually consider this....Yet there is the flip side....an omni pod offering nothing new is deemed useless and redundant and people yell saying it's worthless to buy....

So you guys who are all knowing on this....make your own hero mechs that are not PTW based off the recent Wave 2 & 3 heros.....I dare you to come up with something not pay to win while not useless....Good luck!

I used to say the same thing.
I always argued: "There is no p2w in MWO. Everything you will ever need to be competitive will be free at some point".
This applied in the past, where heroes were just another variant to better fit some people's taste or make them "special". Perfectly fine.

But, you know, with more and more heroes getting CONSIDERABLY better omnipods, my argument starts to fall apart.
Take the KFX hero:
Torso and HIGH E-hardpoints AND 4 of them.
This makes the KFX hero like twice as good as regular KFXs.

It's still not really "pay to win". You can beat the little sucker with a lot of non-payed Mechs.
But I see MWO more and more become "pay to be considerably better" instead of "pay to be a fancy variant".

So, the p2w-whiners slowly get a point, you know .

Edited by Paigan, 05 April 2017 - 06:01 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's an ugly solution which could work.

its the only solution.

how else can you balance adding a hellbringer 2E right torso omnipod and not have it be pay2win?

the only other option would be not adding it at all, which means no hero mech revenue for that particular chassis, and any option that results in less revenue is obviously a bad option.

Quote

I don't see the point of adding negative quirks at all, last time their was negative quirks it barely affect the mech at all, and while it seems nice it also put off people buying them in turn hurt pgi. The hellbringer hero gonna b hot doing a full 2lpl and 3 er medium build since you sacrifice some heat for the build, and the dual guass ebon jag won't have enough ammo to sustian a long period plus the it making hitting the st on that much more easier. But that's my take of it.

the point is because not all omnipods are created equal. and because of the fluid nature of omnimechs and their ability to switch around pods you need some way of balancing omnipods.

having both positive and negative quirks allows you to incrementally adjust the power level of each omnipod so theyre all relatively balanced.

Quote

The hellbringer hero gonna b hot doing a full 2lpl and 3 er medium build since you sacrifice some heat for the build

not really. I run 2 LPL and 3-4 ERML on my mad cat/ebon jaguar and its perfectly manageable. obviously your definition of a hot build differs from mine.

Edited by Khobai, 05 April 2017 - 06:09 AM.

[SmokedJag]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Personally, I prefer my lasers in my arms. Gives me a lot of fine and fast control for aiming on really fast enemies. Plus, I can actually aim up and down.

Doesn't change that high core hardpoints on a 'Mech with ECM is unbeatable at what it does. The Hellbringer can do a lot of things but little else that's not light can peak over a hill like a Hunchback that also can't be detected on sensors.

Making that pay only is bad. Very bad. The way to go about it is what they're already doing with the loyalty pod becoming available for Cbills.

[Hit the Deck]

Paigan, on 05 April 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I used to say the same thing.
I always argued: "There is no p2w in MWO. Everything you will ever need to be competitive will be free at some point".
This applied in the past, where heroes were just another variant to better fit some people's taste or make them "special". Perfectly fine.
...

Well, if you define "being competitive" as playing in official tournaments, then you can only bring C-Bills 'mechs/pods so the game isn't P2W in that sense.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 05 April 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

its the only solution.

how else can you balance adding a hellbringer 2E right torso omnipod and not have it be pay2win?

the only other option would be not adding it at all, which means no hero mech revenue for that particular chassis, and any option that results in less revenue is obviously a bad option.



the point is because not all omnipods are created equal. and because of the fluid nature of omnimechs and their ability to switch around pods you need some way of balancing omnipods.

having both positive and negative quirks allows you to incrementally adjust the power level of each omnipod so theyre all relatively balanced.

I just dont trust PGI with negative quirks. When they did it with the Timber they lumbered the mech with such absurd extra duration that made running lasers on it just idiocy. Id prefer they put some buffs on the less good pods that no one takes. You could for example put pretty nice buffs on every non-prime Hellbringer LT without increasing the power level of the chassis at all, the Prime LT is so good.

Tbh though, Omnis are so screwed over by build rules, mix and match to make the best legomech is all they have - id rather they just release the Hero pods for cbills (or at least MC, so you dont have to spend 20$ for a single Omnipod)

Khobai, on 05 April 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

not really. I run 2 LPL and 3-4 ERML on my mad cat/ebon jaguar and its perfectly manageable. obviously your definition of a hot build differs from mine.

Well, in fairness they get more DHS than the Hellbringer due to ES/FF

[The6thMessenger]

CK16, on 05 April 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

So you guys who are all knowing on this....make your own hero mechs that are not PTW based off the recent Wave 2 & 3 heros.....I dare you to come up with something not pay to win while not useless....Good luck!

Gave it my best shot.

The6thMessenger, on 05 April 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:

Spoiler

JENNER IIC



MAX ENGINE: 265

I don't like Jenners, I don't like Oxides. These little buggers, these strikers are buzzkills for me. However, i do like the idea of fire-support Light-Mechs.

While it's a battlemech, that you can tune. It may not completely beat the Adder in many other aspects. Still it can go with more impressive Ballistic-Heavy builds. I don't want to outshine the Urbanmech, but the fact that Jenner is ugly as hell in comparison, i don't think it will win over Urbie fans despite "better" (worse hitbox BTW) performance due to clan-tech.

Spoiler

I simply followed, and improved upon the Grid Iron. It's literally Grid-Iron IIC, but i had a story for it. I also improved on the first version i made, now it's long to mid range centric.

Spoiler

HBK-IIC LM "LA MUERTA"

The Hunchback IIC is the refit of the venerable Hunchback chassis. Six tons of armor, paltry ammunition, and lacks long range weapons, even slow movement speed, it was a last ditch effort for warriors to die in the glory of battle -- or so it was thought.These suicidal mechs and their suicidal pilots are most likely blown to bits, often beyond repair, almost always beyond recognition even. But ever so often, bits and pieces can be retrieved, and piece-by-piece of information can be uncovered. The think-tank of the Comstars led by Yuna Cassel, upon their endevour to understand Clan Technology, they retrieved all they can from the destroyed Hunchback IICs, but eventually the true intent was uncovered.

Among the errors of piecing the pieces together was the HBK-IIC, from a female Pilot of the Clan Smoke Jaguar that died. The ammunition was exhausted as she fought with reckless abandon, much of the forces of Inner Sphere was decimated by this singular Hunchback. Despite all her efforts she instead bled to death inside the cockpit, leaving this badly wrecked Hunchback IIC somewhat intact, and so her body for her story to be known.

"La Muerta" it was called. With the weight of the war upon her shoulders, Yuna took it upon her to restore this singular HBK-IIC in her spare time as a monument to honor the female warrior, with limited intact samples from hundreds of destroyed Hunchback IICs, she could only piece together different variants together. She vowed to end the Clan Smoke Jaguar with the very own mech they sent for death.

Armed with a UAC10 on the left torso with two-tons of ammunitionn. An LRM15 with two-tons of ammunition for long-range fire support engagement, and along with it is a Streak SRM6 for short-ranged engaement, for expoiting holes in the enemy's weakness, or to chase away lights. Four ER-Medium-Lasers, one on each arm and two on the center torso. One Class-4 Jump-Jets on each side leg at a total of two. 8.5 tons of Ferro-Fibrous armor, upon an Endo-Steel skeleton, with an XL225 engine it's much faster.

Spoiler

ORION IIC



QUIRKS:

BASE ARMOR (CT): 12.00
BASE ARMOR (LT): 12.00
BASE ARMOR (RT): 8.00
BASE ARMOR (LA): 6.00
BASE ARMOR (RA): 6.00
BASE ARMOR (LL): 8.00
BASE ARMOR (RL): 8.00

Not once i ever played the Orion IIC in QP, just in the Testing Grounds. But seeing that it doesn't have a hero yet, here's an input. Basically just shifting around hardpoints, it's practically just the Mauler Hero.

Spoiler

HIGHLANDER IIC



QUIRKS:

ACCELERATION RATE: 25.00 %
DECELERATION RATE: 25.00 %
TURN RATE: 20.00 %
TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 5.00 %
BASE ARMOR (RT): 16.00
BASE STRUCTURE (CT): 15.00
BASE STRUCTURE (LT): 10.00
BASE STRUCTURE (RT): 10.00
BASE STRUCTURE (LL): 10.00
BASE STRUCTURE (RL): 10.00

Literally just a 90-ton Hunchback, with Missile for arms. As with the Snowflake syndrome, it has two hands instead of one. Likewise the heavy ballistic weapon is shifted on the Right torso instead.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 April 2017 - 06:35 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 April 2017 - 05:51 AM, said:

Yup.

Though this also IMO, reinforces the Set of 8 quirks as a good idea (at least as long as we have quirks). As you already said, the Meta Crowd will munchkin the pods to optimal configs anyhow... no reason to also give them the best quirks on top of that, leave those as a bone for people who maybe don't desire to run full meta. (I know this is very counter to Competitive thought, but, eh, hardly the first time I've not really cared about that)

I dont like that, because legomech is all Omnimechs have going for them over the freedom of Battlemech construction (engines that arent exact multiples of tonnage, dynamic ES/FF, etc), so i dont like the idea of penalising using Legomech to its fullest.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2017 - 05:17 AM, said:

Sure it is interesting. ECM Heavy that can LRM? Sign me up! For others with different taste, it can be configured as sneaky Splat ECM Heavy mech, something Clans do not have. Nothing powercreeping compared to its optimum config (unlike PGI's Hellbie Hero), while retaining interesting flavor.

P2W as you cant do that as well without the hero omnipods.

Khobai, on 05 April 2017 - 06:02 AM, said:

its the only solution.

how else can you balance adding a hellbringer 2E right torso omnipod and not have it be pay2win?

the only other option would be not adding it at all, which means no hero mech revenue for that particular chassis, and any option that results in less revenue is obviously a bad option.



the point is because not all omnipods are created equal. and because of the fluid nature of omnimechs and their ability to switch around pods you need some way of balancing omnipods.

having both positive and negative quirks allows you to incrementally adjust the power level of each omnipod so theyre all relatively balanced.



not really. I run 2 LPL and 3-4 ERML on my mad cat/ebon jaguar and its perfectly manageable. obviously your definition of a hot build differs from mine.

Mcgral's solution is better.

Your Timber/Ebon builds have a few more DHS, so its not exactly the same.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Guys, hate to break it to you, but Hero's won't sell enough if they are just cbill bonus Mechs and lack actual uniqueness (since they are available for CBills). Most people will just buy it for CBills.

This means players who play the most have the least incentive to spend money on the game, since they already have Cbills : they have no need to buy a C-Bill booster mech, and they have the Cbills to buy it without MC.