156 replies to this topic

[Athom83]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Also not a fan of the gold tack-on items pattern ornaments, especially on the Hellbringer.

The God Emperor of Mankind would be displeased.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

How about 3 on each side? Summoner G/Q coming to a loyalty pack next year!!!

You think the SRMmoner is popular now, just wait until we have those pods, basically a heavier humanoid jumping Mad Dog.

6x SRM6 plus 4x Heavy Small Lasers? (don't wanna think about the heat from 4x Heavy Mediums and probably ghost heat.... though the 112 damage alpha......)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 April 2017 - 11:01 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Appogee, on 06 April 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

I am genuinely puzzled why anyone cannot see that some of these new Heroes are P2W.

They provide additional hardpoints, in favourable locations. That enables some players to spend money to build more powerful Mechs ... Mechs which either have more weapons, or weapons in better locations, or more effective combat capabilities unavailable to those who don't pay.

That is the very essence of P2W.

The best example is the Gargoyle. It's fast Assault Mech presently somewhat gimped by not being able to equip any weapon in its Side Torsos. That means enemies can destroy its arms to neuter it, and that it cannot currently ridge peek. However, the Hero Gargoyle will be able to equip 4 weapons in its side torsos. Owners will be able to use those pods to increase the total number of weapons available, fight on when the arms are gone, ridge peek, and even strip armor from the arms to free up tonnage to accommodate more powerful Side Torso weapons or equipment. The resulting Gargoyle will be a more powerful Gargoyle than any other freely-available Gargoyle.

That is P2W.

You can argue that you think P2W is acceptable. That's a different argument. But there's no question that some of these new Heroes are not P2W.

By your definition but I have my own (more accurate) definition of what constitutes P2W. I will quote myself from another thread:

Rampage, on 06 April 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

If any of these omni-pods turned one of these Mechs into the best Mech in its weight class then I would be right there with the mob yelling "Pay to Win". But the fact is, none of them make the Mechs that much better and the Mechs that had that potential, such as the Arctic Cheetah, got no help from the Hero pods. No one is forced to play any of these chassis and in every case there is a better alternative that is free.

Pay to optimize? Sure. OK. Pay to Win? Not until they make a pay only hero that is better than the best Kodiak, Marauder IIC Night Gyr, TimberWolf, Warhammer, Battlemaster, Grasshopper, Griffin, Huntsman, Hunchback IIC, Arctic Cheetah and Locust. You want to win more? Play those.

So, yes, I will continue to argue that it is, in fact, not necessary to pay any money in this game to win.

[Mystere]

Monkey Lover, on 06 April 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

Looks to me Russ is only going to adjust mechs if they move up to tier 1. Low tier mechs will still keep the "pay 2 balance" pods.

And once again, you make it sound like that is a bad thing.

Edited by Mystere, 06 April 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I hate to say it because I am a huge fan of Lauren's work but I do not like the camo patterns on any of these new Hero Mechs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 06 April 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

I hate to say it because I am a huge fan of Lauren's work but I do not like the camo patterns on any of these new Hero Mechs.

I like a couple, providing I can change the colors. Like the Ebon, Mad Dog, Executioner, Ice Ferret, and the Mist Lynx. Aesthetics are subjective of course.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

I like a couple, providing I can change the colors. Like the Ebon, Mad Dog, Executioner, Ice Ferret, and the Mist Lynx. Aesthetics are subjective of course.

true, though overall I felt the last 2 reinforcement Hero packs (Clan 1 and IS) were on average a bit more tastefully restrained, though still possessed of a few either "meh" or "errrr?" paint jobs.

And as more evidence of subjectivity... I actually liked the Warsaw Pact camo Crash test dummy look of the SMN-Pryde.

[process]

That Hellbringer is sexy as heck, except... it's a bird. Bleh.

[Appogee]

Rampage, on 06 April 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

By your definition but I have my own (more accurate) definition of what constitutes P2W. I will quote myself from another thread:
(in summary, you said "as long as there is another Mech that is more powerful, then paid omnipods are not P2W".)

I understand your point of view, but I don't agree with it.

By your definition, PGI could add any kind of paid content - better ominpods, better weapon types, gold ammunition, different engines - and as long as there was a single CBill Mech that was "better", then that wouldn't be pay to win.

[Cy Mitchell]

Appogee, on 06 April 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

I understand your point of view, but I don't agree with it.

By your definition, PGI could add any kind of paid content - better ominpods, better weapon types, gold ammunition, different engines - and as long as there was a single CBill Mech that was "better", then that wouldn't be pay to win.

Well, that is taking it to the extreme but yes, it is essentially correct. I would say as long as there is a free alternative to a Paywalled Mech and it performs better(is more likely to consistently win) than the Paywalled Mech then it is not P2W.

Obviously, one single Mech cannot do that. There are in game requirements that force you to use multiple Mechs such as Mechs of different weight classes or that serve different roles. Therefore, there has to be many Mechs or variants that are superior to the paywalled Mech. That happens to be the case in MWO and in the case of these Clan Heroes.

None of these chassis that might be getting these new Omni-pods will surpass or even come close to the performance of the top Mechs in their weight classes.

As I said, until you cannot find better alternatives to pilot than the Mechs that you have to pay cash or MC for then MWO will not be pay to win.

Lets just be honest and call this what it really is. It is the non-paying players not being happy about not being able to get all the newest stuff, especially if it is different from what was available before. Not because they need it to win, just because new stuff is cool and desirable. I can understand that and accept it a lot more readily than the P2W claims. The problem is that PGI must make money and get paid for putting new stuff in the game somehow. So, they cannot just give everything away for free, at least not before they have sold some it to cover development cost.

If PGI wants to give the stuff away for free after they make some money on it then I have no problem with it. However, if they do not want to do that because they need sales to keep the game alive then I have no problem with that either. The only problem I would have with them is if they give the stuff away for free and as a result let the game die.

Edited by Rampage, 06 April 2017 - 02:31 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rampage, on 06 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Lets just be honest and call this what it really is. It is the non-paying players not being happy about not being able to get all the newest stuff, especially if it is different from what was available before.

Then you aren't being honest because it isn't just the free players making a fuss. I'm pretty sure players like myself and McGral have thrown quite a bit of money PGI's way (I know I have).

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Then you aren't being honest because it isn't just the free players making a fuss. I'm pretty sure players like myself and McGral have thrown quite a bit of money PGI's way (I know I have).

Yeah..I have 6 purchases between January 24th and March 18th. Love when people categorize me as a free player.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rampage, on 06 April 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

The only problem I would have with them is if they give the stuff away for free and as a result let the game die.

I think you grossly overestimate the impact on PGI's bottom line if they allowed heroes be available for c-bills (without the camo and 30% cbill bonus).

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Then you aren't being honest because it isn't just the free players making a fuss. I'm pretty sure players like myself and McGral have thrown quite a bit of money PGI's way (I know I have).

pretty sure I'm in the top 1% for purchases in this game (to my eternal shame), and tend to be agreeing with you guys on this subject.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

I think you grossly overestimate the impact on PGI's bottom line if they allowed heroes be available for c-bills (without the camo and 30% cbill bonus).

and also the value of early access, and how one balances the "free" aspect by making it just grindy enough to make it realistically doable, but a hell of a lot of work. Thus people are still often inclined to pay for convenience, especially let's say for a Meta-Champ mech or simply a favorite design.

I think Rampage overlook show many presales various chassis have had by people who didn't buy the Collector Upgrade, or Hero. I got all the Unseen, simply because I didn't want to wait the extra 3 months to play them, and all the pre order extras.

A properly "priced" premium "free" item, it's going to take serious grind to get to. You aren't going to Pokemech that way, unless you live with an IV drip and diapers, playing this game 24/7.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Then you aren't being honest because it isn't just the free players making a fuss. I'm pretty sure players like myself and McGral have thrown quite a bit of money PGI's way (I know I have).

I'm presently not (wallet closed), but I have gotten a top tier Mechpack, and a few Med packs

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 06 April 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

I'm presently not (wallet closed), but I have gotten a top tier Mechpack, and a few Med packs

Just one? You Filthy Freeloader.

[Cy Mitchell]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

I think you grossly overestimate the impact on PGI's bottom line if they allowed heroes be available for c-bills (without the camo and 30% cbill bonus).

Really? Are you sure about that?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Then you aren't being honest because it isn't just the free players making a fuss. I'm pretty sure players like myself and McGral have thrown quite a bit of money PGI's way (I know I have).

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yeah..I have 6 purchases between January 24th and March 18th. Love when people categorize me as a free player.

Both of you have a bit different motives. If you can get the Mechs released for C-Bills then they become legal for comp leagues (and you do not have to pay for them). Gas has even stated that this is his motivation for proposing that they be released for C-
Bills.

It is mostly free players making a fuss IMO. McGral18 (not picking on you but you did put yourself on the forefront) and others who are putting forth the P2W argument have been very open about their "wallets closed" stance during the last 14 months that I have been back to the game. I think that I am being very honest. That is my perception of this whole P2W campaign. I could not care less whether they pay to play the game. I just feel that they are trying to manipulate the facts to demonize PGI and get their way. If PGI gives in to them then that is their business. However, then I too will only buy the one Mech that I really want right now and then I will wait to get all the others for free. That is going to loose PGI a chunk of change because I am absolutely certain that a boatload of people will do the same. How do you suppose that will be for the companies bottom line?

My core point is, it is not a case of P2W. I have made my position clear and I have posted it several times to counter those that I feel are making false P2W claims. You can disagree. That is certainly your right. You would just be wrong if you do!

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yeah..I have 6 purchases between January 24th and March 18th. Love when people categorize me as a free player.

P.S. I never categorized you as a free to play player, Gas. I pay attention to the forums. I know you buy Mechs. I also am aware of your motivations for wanting the heroes sold for C-Bills.

Edited by Rampage, 06 April 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

A properly "priced" premium "free" item, it's going to take serious grind to get to. You aren't going to Pokemech that way, unless you live with an IV drip and diapers, playing this game 24/7.

So what is "properly priced"? I want to do the math. You know, do that thing where I use numbers, and math and logic to debunk opinion.

i will help you out with a for instance. 40 million c-bills was given by the OP. say 125k per match makes it 320 matches. Season 9 how many players achieved that without a goal of getting a free mech?

Or let's go another direction. 10 minutes a match, 3200 minutes. 2 hours a night and less than a month free hero mech!

2 hours a night equals IV drip and diapers.....right.

But hey, PGI would get that sweet sweet $$ for all the mech bays they would sell. I mean who wouldn't take $3 instead of $40? (except PGI gives out so much free MC and mech bays you wouldn't really need to buy MC)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rampage, on 06 April 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

Both of you have a bit different motives. If you can get the Mechs released for C-Bills then they become legal for comp leagues (and you do not have to pay for them). Gas has even stated that this is his motivation for proposing that they be released for C-

I've pushed for this since before I played comp.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 April 2017 - 07:14 PM.