23 replies to this topic

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Having experienced Alpine Domination's odd placement old and new a few times and heard the outcry's I decided to wander around the frozen wastes of Alpine to look for better placement of our AO. I believe I have found one, though it might be a little rough and require PGI to add in a bit extra terrain but, hey, PGI was looking to redo Alpine and they can throw in a few rocks, up the max textures, and put in some trees to knock down to spruce it up (maybe even make them spruce trees! Please don't hit me).

Alright, so first, let's talk spawns, currently we have uneven spawns which leads one team to get to the cap before the other which is obviously unfair in many ways, as well as one team has all the cover and the other is constantly fighting going out of cover to get into the cap. This is unfair given how domination is set up now, if it was one team defending the cap from the other then it would be fine, but it is whoever caps first wins so no good.

So proposed spawn points.

Green circle is area where the tower could go, that hill in general, further south the better imo. The four red dots are the four timer resets, one in each spawn then one in L9 and L6.

View from Team A. View from Team B.
View from K8 hill of one of the areas that Team A can drop down into the hopeful main fight zone in and around the cap.

Team A Walk to Fight Area: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Alternative path takes you off a cliff that also gives overlook of the fight, but, you can get shot from the K8/L8 hill easily.

Team B walk to Fight Area: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

The objective would go in one of a few locations to drive the conflict: 1, 2.

This would create a need to go into this back area in M7 or so where the Tower is either in the low ground (acting as a bit of cover) or on the hill itself creating a pivot zone where teams have to wheel around and dislodge each other and push off people supporting their teams from the two natural camping locations from the shelf at L8 and L6. Spawns might be too close, but, then again Caustic and HPG exist, as does Canyon Network.

This would also hopefully create with both sides no real "caught out" situations for heavies or assaults as there should be for Team A the option to run off the shelf into the cover of the M7 hill from K8, and the long low land cover for Team B that has gentle upward slope that won't make larger/slower mechs chug climbing up to the point.

As for changes to alpine, I think a few larger rocks in K7 L7 to hide behind from K8/L8 would be decent, up the resolution of the textures on the map. Maybe make the map be more of part of the map is below the timberline and part above, would be something different, but, that a side note to game play. (This is crossposted from reddit from my own post, felt it should be here and there. Not a stolen post/idea.)

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 05 April 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sigh, here we go again with another "fix" to Alpine domination.

Already been there, done that, can you get a clue by now please? PGI already fixed it. Twice. Each time it became just as broken as before if not worse. They are clueless, end of story.

Just by looking at your "fix" I can see a 16x16 squares map with all the fighting / movement going on within 6x3 squares area.
I.e. bad.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Alpine itself needs a once-over, not just the domination mode.

[Marius Romanis]

Dont worry guys russ has tweeted that theirs a 4th attempt at placing the circle on alpine domination next patch.

Nice to get information about this stuff in reply to our 20??? threads about it on the forums.

[Clownwarlord]

Or better yet no alpine peaks and domination combo.

[DRlFTER]

Thanks for taking the time to scout out a fix. It looks pretty good on the map. I don't mind Domination circles being located closer to the edges of the map, since players have to make a beeline for it by default most of the map becomes pointless regardless of the location with only a few rows deep outside the circle amounting to much.

If PGI is adjusting the circle again on the next patch I'll be grateful for all the threads that helped make it happen.

[Marius Romanis]

DRlFTER, on 06 April 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

If PGI is adjusting the circle again on the next patch I'll be grateful for all the threads that helped make it happen.

If they read them and listened to the best of them ill be in awe.

[Mechteric]

Alpine really just needs the redesign treatment like frozen City and others, it's just a bad old layout

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 06 April 2017 - 04:57 AM.

[Hindenhoot]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 April 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

Sigh, here we go again with another "fix" to Alpine domination.

Already been there, done that, can you get a clue by now please? PGI already fixed it. Twice. Each time it became just as broken as before if not worse. They are clueless, end of story.

Just by looking at your "fix" I can see a 16x16 squares map with all the fighting / movement going on within 6x3 squares area.
I.e. bad.

Someone takes the time to give the problem some thought, then make a constructive post about it and your response is just to **** on it with a condescending tone that adds nothing to the discussion? Righto.

On topic, great to hear there's another update coming. It's a pretty ridiculous map imbalance, not surprising at all that there are so many threads on it.......did they play test it at all??

Being one of the earliest maps in the game, the general style of it - the terrain/cover type and layout - is pretty dated compared to the formula PGI uses for the more balanced maps. Preventing it from being paired with certain game types isn't the worst thing I've heard. Broadly speaking, in PUGs the map does seem to favour any team the spawns on east side of the map with its better cover in just about any game type, none as heavily in domination though.

Edited by Dahoota, 06 April 2017 - 05:45 AM.

[El Bandito]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 April 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

Alpine itself needs a once-over, not just the domination mode.

CapperDeluxe, on 06 April 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

Alpine really just needs the redesign treatment like frozen City and others, it's just a bad old layout

PGI already did a makeover, but decided to release it as a different map--Polar Highlands. I personally think Alpine should just be deleted from the game, now that we have Polar. And this is coming from a career lurmer.

[R Valentine]

Alpine has always been one of those sad, broken maps. It goes largely unexplored due to being too big and game modes that require small map areas. Why does PGI even make big maps anymore? Domination breaks big maps every time and so does conquest. Just get rid of it.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 April 2017 - 06:06 AM, said:

Alpine has always been one of those sad, broken maps. It goes largely unexplored due to being too big and game modes that require small map areas. Why does PGI even make big maps anymore? Domination breaks big maps every time and so does conquest. Just get rid of it.

This is why I focused the domination area on such a small area of the map, it is too huge, and a lot of it is just too badly designed for the style of play Domination requires to actually be enjoyable. Hence why Domination on Alpine sucks currently for one side and the other just has a what 15 second stroll and then gets a lot of lovely cover for the whole match? Someone, forget if it was PGI or the player base wanted alpine to stay in, I don't care for it, but, it's here. And if it is here to stay for the foreseeable future I rather try to make it less painful and try to throw the different game modes into places that aren't played so often to make use of the massive map space. Because yeah, Alpine could effectively be broken into 3 maps.

PhoenixFire55, on 06 April 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

Sigh, here we go again with another "fix" to Alpine domination.

Already been there, done that, can you get a clue by now please? PGI already fixed it. Twice. Each time it became just as broken as before if not worse. They are clueless, end of story.

Just by looking at your "fix" I can see a 16x16 squares map with all the fighting / movement going on within 6x3 squares area.
I.e. bad.

Because there is too much dead space on Alpine, too much open space where if you had the objective you would just get more dread for playing the map+Mode combo. You could in theory put it in the E8-E9 choke area on the hill where there is already an antenna, would create an interesting dynamic, or the corner of F8 around G7, F7, G8 as well and have players start in the northern area. But, the issue is we don't want people spending two minutes getting to the action. A minute is likely the longest a person is willing to take.

Hell the whole reason for L7/M7 is to take people to a part of the map they don't go to that has decent terrain for playing a mode like Domination that isn't found on other maps currently.

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 06 April 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 06 April 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Because there is too much dead space on Alpine, too much open space where if you had the objective you would just get more dread for playing the map+Mode combo. You could in theory put it in the E8-E9 choke area on the hill where there is already an antenna, would create an interesting dynamic, or the corner of F8 around G7, F7, G8 as well and have players start in the northern area. But, the issue is we don't want people spending two minutes getting to the action. A minute is likely the longest a person is willing to take.

Sure ... why spend more time playing a match when you can spend less. When all you care about is grinding c-bills, you totally need two teams to spawn 200m from the circle and just start blasting each other right away ... Why even bother with strategy, proper moves or silly things like actual scouting. Meh, all useless. Waste of time. Thankfully PGI shares your vision of a proper "BattleTech Game".
[/sarcasm]

"Dead space" on Alpine didn't become dead space by itself ya know. It was made into "dead space" by ret@rded spawn points in ret@rded static game modes. Once again, you have a 16x16 squares map, use it.

There are so many ways to make Alpine domination better, but your suggestion isn't one of them.

Moonlight Grimoire, on 06 April 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

Hell the whole reason for L7/M7 is to take people to a part of the map they don't go to that has decent terrain for playing a mode like Domination that isn't found on other maps currently.

Sorry, but who are you trying to BS now? ... There is a hill on L7-M7 just like more or less any other hill on Alpine, somewhat similar to an E6 hill on GrimPlexus, H6-H7 hill on ForestColony or even F5 ridge on Tourmaline. A hill that nobody will go near to as both teams can snipe it out from L6 and L8 respectively much like they do it from two sides on GrimPlexus domination.

[Mazzyplz]

the funny thing is before pgi released the map we were all asking for more open maps like living legends had.

right after they made that and polar highlands we just complain that they are too big or that there's areas of the map that go unused

[xengk]

I would like to try something different.
Instead of placing the objective between 2 spawn, why not place it about even distance out of the way?
Of course there is the problem of people ignoring the Objective entirely, but the team that play the Objective will have the advantage.

Gold Star being the Objective.
It will sit on the edge of the outpost, the satellite dish looks more natural among the structure anyway.

Spawn A have the advantage of flat open ground, their light can attempt rush/capture and hold until slower unit arrive.
Alternatively, they can try going H8 to catch the passing Team B
Spawn B have the advantage of having most terrain cover, or a shorter route if they risk H8 sniping to take K line.

Ideally, both team is going for Objective and the main fighting will be around outpost area which offer sniping, brawling and LRM play.

If both or one team ignore Objective, fighting will happen around I7 valley as per skirmish/conquest. But with the Objective being enticingly close by.
Team that rush I9 Candy Mountain will likely end up losing, unless both team have the same idea.


F5 and G7 base will be behind enemy line most of the time, but can be flank if light slip through H7 bottleneck or circle around from H10.
L6 base is defended by Team B if they hold K5 or K6, but open to sniping from L8. L9 base is very vulnerable and will probably need better placement.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 April 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

Sure ... why spend more time playing a match when you can spend less. When all you care about is grinding c-bills, you totally need two teams to spawn 200m from the circle and just start blasting each other right away ... Why even bother with strategy, proper moves or silly things like actual scouting. Meh, all useless. Waste of time. Thankfully PGI shares your vision of a proper "BattleTech Game".
[/sarcasm]

"Dead space" on Alpine didn't become dead space by itself ya know. It was made into "dead space" by ret@rded spawn points in ret@rded static game modes. Once again, you have a 16x16 squares map, use it.

There are so many ways to make Alpine domination better, but your suggestion isn't one of them.



Sorry, but who are you trying to BS now? ... There is a hill on L7-M7 just like more or less any other hill on Alpine, somewhat similar to an E6 hill on GrimPlexus, H6-H7 hill on ForestColony or even F5 ridge on Tourmaline. A hill that nobody will go near to as both teams can snipe it out from L6 and L8 respectively much like they do it from two sides on GrimPlexus domination.

Given most matches within 20-60 seconds you already have enemy contact outside of polar highlands, scouting is pointless. Domination is even more pointless to have scouting as they either go to the objective or not. There is no role warfare in MWO. Why this hill, because unlike the current one there is actually fair cover to both sides around it allowing for a fight instead of boring bullcrap of "push into the enemy and die because otherwise they win now because it took us 30 seconds to get here from spawn". You want people to use more of the map then you need to change how game modes work, that isn't what this thread is about, you want to write up how to change domination into a more active game mode, go make that topic, propose how to do it.

If you want it further pushed out you could instead go out to I4, H4 spawn vs K12, J12 spawn zone to fight over the domination point put in say L8.

Or maybe you put domination point in I7, Spawn one team in E7 and one in K10. These are more constructive proposals than insulting me and derailing the thread.

xengk, on 07 April 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

I would like to try something different.
Instead of placing the objective between 2 spawn, why not place it about even distance out of the way?
Of course there is the problem of people ignoring the Objective entirely, but the team that play the Objective will have the advantage.

Gold Star being the Objective.
It will sit on the edge of the outpost, the satellite dish looks more natural among the structure anyway.

Spawn A have the advantage of flat open ground, their light can attempt rush/capture and hold until slower unit arrive.
Alternatively, they can try going H8 to catch the passing Team B
Spawn B have the advantage of having most terrain cover, or a shorter route if they risk H8 sniping to take K line.

Ideally, both team is going for Objective and the main fighting will be around outpost area which offer sniping, brawling and LRM play.

If both or one team ignore Objective, fighting will happen around I7 valley as per skirmish/conquest. But with the Objective being enticingly close by.
Team that rush I9 Candy Mountain will likely end up losing, unless both team have the same idea.


F5 and G7 base will be behind enemy line most of the time, but can be flank if light slip through H7 bottleneck or circle around from H10.
L6 base is defended by Team B if they hold K5 or K6, but open to sniping from L8. L9 base is very vulnerable and will probably need better placement.

This is interesting and I do like it, there is plenty of cover where you put the domination point, though, I worry for assault mechs getting to the point, though, maybe this would make the mode show slower mechs their job isn't to play the objective but support those who are and instead fight the enemy team and protect those faster mechs that are more weakly armored and armed that made it into the capture circle. This also helps with a lot of peoples concerns of "you're not using enough of the map" that people kept bringing up.

[mouser42]

Just stick it on top of a mountian and have a nasty fight around that, problem solved.

[xengk]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

This is interesting and I do like it, there is plenty of cover where you put the domination point, though, I worry for assault mechs getting to the point, though, maybe this would make the mode show slower mechs their job isn't to play the objective but support those who are and instead fight the enemy team and protect those faster mechs that are more weakly armored and armed that made it into the capture circle. This also helps with a lot of peoples concerns of "you're not using enough of the map" that people kept bringing up.

The canister and structure in the outpost allow for close combat around the Objective, something I found lacking in most Domination map.
Most game's strategy tend to be forming firing line opposite the Objective and skirmish until one team have the numeric advantage to push into Objective. Getting into objective early usually is punished by enemy fire because of having no cover.

This domination point will allow light and medium to bob and weave around until the bigger slower mechs arrive.

[PhoenixFire55]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

Given most matches within 20-60 seconds you already have enemy contact outside of polar highlands, scouting is pointless.

Let us clarify something. Do you personally think that it should be that way and it is fine as is? Because if the answer is yes then we have nothing to discuss further. And if the answer is no then your suggested fix makes even less sense.

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

Domination is even more pointless to have scouting as they either go to the objective or not.

That is true for domination game mode in its current state, but nothing prevents you, us and everyone else from suggesting changes to domination mode instead.

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

Why this hill, because unlike the current one there is actually fair cover to both sides around it ...

LOL, no there isn't. Not vs a team with at least a little brain.

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

... allowing for a fight instead of boring bullcrap of "push into the enemy and die because otherwise they win now because it took us 30 seconds to get here from spawn".

Keep being entitled and ignorant all you want, but there is plenty of fight on Alpine domination in its current state, was plenty of fight in its previous state and will be plenty of fight wherever you put the damn circle. Disbalance doesn't mean lack of fight, it means an advantage to one of the teams. If however that team is counterbalanced by being weaker it still leads to an even fight. I've played plenty of Alpine domination and on average I see absolutely no W/L advantage for a team spawning on a supposedly "better" side. All I see is same thing I see every time, silly whining from bads who lose all the time regardless of any kind of advantage they might have, its just that they actually found out what exactly they can blame instead of themselves for it. The funniest moment in an Alpine domination match I had was two guys from two different teams both claiming that their side was at a severe disadvantage after the latest circle position change and arguing about it all match long. But what do you expect, bads are gonna bad ...

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

You want people to use more of the map then you need to change how game modes work, that isn't what this thread is about, you want to write up how to change domination into a more active game mode, go make that topic, propose how to do it.

I did, others did. But thats the thing, for each solid well thought suggestion there are dozens of useless ones. No offense or anything, but yours doesn't change anything at all.

Moonlight Grimoire, on 07 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

If you want it further pushed out you could instead go out to I4, H4 spawn vs K12, J12 spawn zone to fight over the domination point put in say L8.

Or maybe you put domination point in I7, Spawn one team in E7 and one in K10. These are more constructive proposals than insulting me and derailing the thread.

Look, if you don't want feedback then go and make a ticket to PGI support with your proposal. When you post on the forum you will get feedback from others regarding your proposal. If you can't deal with negative feedback - don't post, simple as that. Never have I "insulted" you in any possible way. If you consider someone disagreeing with you an insult, thats your problem, not mine.

[jjm1]

Its an idea.

I still propose a bigger overhaul or removal of alpine first.

I assume the bittervet is looking for a holiday. Completely uncalled for.