26 replies to this topic

[Marquis De Lafayette]

There seem to be many folks who are concerned with a F2P game having any way for paying players to have a built-in advantage (no matter how slight) over "free" players. Something that "free" players can never (or realistically) attain to or get. In principle I understand this concern and see it as legitimate.

At the same time, PGI does need to sell enough stuff for real $ to keep it F2P. Any adult should get that. They have bills to pay and their staff doesn't take c-bills or MC (which players don't actually have to buy...PGI does give that away as well to us in events) for their paychecks.

So, how to give "free" players access to the stuff that paid players can get?

Some folks have suggested c-bills for hero omnipods. While as a player this would be great, it would be bad for PGI. Let's face it, if most of us ever thought we could just get the one or two hero omnipods we want for c-bills, we would just wait on it and not spend the real $. Even if you made it 10 or 100x the cost. We can get the 50 million c-bills in game no problem, just takes a bit of time, but not that long actually. The $25 for a hero assault actually hurts us more, if all we really care about is a couple of pods.

MC for omnipods is little different. We can accumulate MC by playing the game. So, if you made it 500 or 750 MC for a pod...some folks would buy a bit of MC...but many of us would still not pay real $ and just grind events for the MC and wait a little longer. So, again little $ for PGI in this. It is similar to camo's. Yes, people do drop $ on them....but I usually just use some accumulated MC from grinding the game on them. I doubt I am alone.

So, how to do it in a way that gives access, without majorly cutting PGI's sales $.

Enter the nearly useless supply cache. I say nearly useless, because on a occasion there is something I want a shot at in them. This is where PGI could give access to the non-paid players to paid content. PGI certainly provides enough MC in game to open a bunch of these caches throughout the year. So, you don't have to buy MC. If they made the desirable Hero Omnipods available as rare items the non-paying players could and would get them....it would just take time and probably also spending every single bit of the MC PGI gives players on those lottery-ticket cache keys. You could even put the omnipods in the caches on launch day. That way everyone (Paying players and non-paying) have an avenue of access to the same tech at the same time...technically anyway.

But, hey in principle this could solve the pay-wall issue. PGI gives event grinders the MC, which gives everyone the ability to get (eventually) the omnipods we desire. It would just take a while probably for the majority of players to do it this way.

PGI could likely still sell as many heroes as now, as the vast majority of players wouldn't have the patience to wait on obtaining and opening dozens of caches to eventually get the omnipod they do want. It would be frustrating to do it this way....yet doable.

Let's face another reality...we can actually grind MC for heroes right now (so technically it there is no hard paywall...$ really just gives early access). It just would take a few years of events to get enough MC for a hero assault and most of us don't have that kind of patience, although I know people who actually did this.

As a way to make caches more relevant and desirable, PGI could even put some stale not-so-good hero mechs in the caches...if they wanted to increase cache openings (they might even sell more MC for real $). Some of the Mechs they put in there are coded ultra-rare, but are worth less c-bills than uncommon or rare items....yes you do get that mechbay. However, if you took out the commando and the spider and put in some unloved hero and I will take a shot at it...(fully knowing I probably won't get it). I would pony up the 25 MC and probably a lot of us would.

Anyway... I understand this idea not the (easy access, for the free players) solution we want...we of course want c-bill or MC access for those pods...,but it might be something that PGI could live with and would increase access for non-paying players.

If PGI can increase access to hero omnipods without costing themselves a bunch of money it could happen...and I would rather see some improved avenue for access than nothing. It might even give PGI a chance to redeem the mostly failed supply cache mechanic in the process

[Mcgral18]

Mechs are available for Cbills, so that's why no one ever buys the GrabDeals



Your logic at work

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 06 April 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Mechs are available for Cbills, so that's why no one ever buys the GrabDeals

I'm seeing this logic a lot, especially in my thread where I propose high C-bill prices for hero mechs without camo and C-bill bonus.

"If they are available for C-bills no one will buy them with cash/MC" -a special person

Despite their being countless instances of evidence to the contrary. Ughhh. Truly a waste of matter/oxygen.

Disclaimer: The special person I am referring to is not the OP.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 06 April 2017 - 07:38 AM.

[Crockdaddy]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

I'm seeing this logic a lot, especially in my thread where I propose high C-bill prices for hero mechs without camo and C-bill bonus.

"If they are available for C-bills no one will buy them with cash/MC" -a special person

Despite their being countless instances of evidence to the contrary. Ughhh. Truly a waste of matter/oxygen.

I think it would be fair for Heroes to end up as very high cost Cbill mechs without camos etc. I doubt it would hurt sales all that much. Most of us whom spend $ on this game are either

Busy with work and can afford the $ but do not always have the time to grind (myself).
Collects everything like a true Pokemon master.
Happens to have too much disposable income.
Addicted to all things BattleTech.
A true White Knight, one whom buys everything in sight to support the plebs er I mean the game.

*edit spelling*

Edited by Crockdaddy, 06 April 2017 - 07:55 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Well this has all kicked off again, because of a few omnipods have been introduced that give out a few extra loads, which while they most probably will be high, we don't know where on the omnipod the hard points will sit.

Lets reverse the thinking, and I'll play devils advocate.

Free 2 Play people are only contributing traffic numbers and helping make the Match maker work ( though many say it doesn't work)

They contribute nothing to the server costs, the wages of the people that develop maps, mech's, modes, all the things that keep the lights on.

Because the advantages are so slight, why shouldn't those that bare the majority of the personal cost have a slight advantage, for keeping the lights on.

There are those that will say, because I can't afford it while paying for fiber optic internet, for a Television package, an extensive Mobile phone contract.

There are very few people that genuinely cannot afford to contribute to this games continuation, and those that are in this situation I have some sympathy for.

Most people playing this game though choose to not pay into it, and those I have no sympathy for and have no right to complain about a few items that give a minor advantage.

A few builds does not make a bad player good, and the fractions we're talking about won't give a good player much more of an advantage.

If an analysis of who's complaining was produced, I'd guess the vast majority are comp players who don't contribute a bean to keeping this game running.

[Dogstar]

A company that gives away all it's cool stuff to the people who spend the least amount of money and the most amount of resources (i.e. f2p grinders) is a company that will eventually crash and burn.

There's needs to be a fair amount of stuff that is only available by spending real money and complaining about that is just another form of crocodile tears - it's not a real complaint it's just bluster to try and get stuff for free and is a ploy that they should have grown out of years ago.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Cathy, on 06 April 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Free 2 Play people are only contributing traffic numbers and helping make the Match maker work ( though many say it doesn't work)

You seem to seriously underestimate the importance of having that traffic.

Cathy, on 06 April 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Most people playing this game though choose to not pay into it, and those I have no sympathy for and have no right to complain about a few items that give a minor advantage.

Since when is angering or displeasing a majority of your playerbase a good thing?

[Crockdaddy]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

You seem to seriously underestimate the importance of having that traffic.


Since when is angering or displeasing a majority of your playerbase a good thing?

I have to agree. Traffic means everything to a F2P game. No or little traffic and you won't have a game regardless of the whales or "meta playing ****** such as myself" (PS I am a whale too and not just because of my belly size).

[Roughneck45]

Cathy, on 06 April 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Because the advantages are so slight, why shouldn't those that bare the majority of the personal cost have a slight advantage, for keeping the lights on.

Because that's the definition of pay to win.

Ill admit though, this scenario is more nuanced that most P2W situations, and I honestly can't think of a way to solve it that wouldn't be detrimental to PGI from a business perspective.

Edited by Roughneck45, 06 April 2017 - 08:01 AM.

[Robot Kenshiro]

While there are good points and what not being put out here I think the term pay to win has been so misused in this game.
I don't know how it's pay to win. How can it? I mean seriously I understand a few extra hard points might make more diverse and probably a little more damaging builds but in all honesty it doesn't make you God mode. You get gimped. Half the time it would most likely be your fault or you're playing against seasoned players.

If PGI suddenly released

COMSTARS MIGHTY SLEDGE HAMMER GAUSS RIFLE.
Legendary Weapon.
Dmg increased to 30
Cool down reduced to 1.5s
No charge time
Indestructible
1500MC

THEN YES.... I would say this game is pay to win. Omni pods don't make this game pay to win. Not even quirks. You still die fairly easily.

I just can't see where ppl are getting that this is a pay to win game. Free to play. Well yea yes and no. Learning curve is still high for those with zero experience in battletech/mech games.

Edited by Robot Kenshiro, 06 April 2017 - 08:04 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 April 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

You seem to seriously underestimate the importance of having that traffic.

Since when is angering or displeasing a majority of your playerbase a good thing?

So you agree with Cathy that the majority of MWO players do not put up any RL $ in the effort to keep the lights on? No worries though. When those few who do pay stop, the non-payers will no longer have to gripe about anything, well except WHINE about how MWO went offline because the Whales all took their money somewhere else. LOL!

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 April 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Robot Kenshiro, on 06 April 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

While there are good points and what not being put out here I think the term pay to win has been so misused in this game.
I don't know how it's pay to win. How can it? I mean seriously I understand a few extra hard points might make more diverse and probably a little more damaging builds but in all honesty it doesn't make you God mode. You get gimped. Half the time it would most likely be your fault or you're playing against seasoned players.

Its really a simple thing.

If the "best" build for a mech requires hero pods, then its locked behind a paywall.

Like a 6 small pulse Mist Lynx, or an Ice Fridge with ECM.

Edited by Roughneck45, 06 April 2017 - 08:10 AM.

[SteelMantis]

I'm fine spending a few hundred a year on a good game.

I'm a lot less likely to spend money on this game today than I was a week ago.

[Gas Guzzler]

Roughneck45, on 06 April 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Because that's the definition of pay to win.

Ill admit though, this scenario is more nuanced that most P2W situations, and I honestly can't think of a way to solve it that wouldn't be detrimental to PGI from a business perspective.

I still think having a super expensive c-bill option that doesn't get the custom camo or c-bill bonus would be the best way to go, and would likely increase the demand for the heros that are no longer paywalled and can be used in comp mode/comp leagues.

Roughneck45, on 06 April 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

Like a 6 small pulse ML

How does a Medium Laser have 6 small pulse??? OH GOD MY BRAIN IS SPLODING

[MechaBattler]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

I'm seeing this logic a lot, especially in my thread where I propose high C-bill prices for hero mechs without camo and C-bill bonus.

"If they are available for C-bills no one will buy them with cash/MC" -a special person

Despite their being countless instances of evidence to the contrary. Ughhh. Truly a waste of matter/oxygen.

Disclaimer: The special person I am referring to is not the OP.

There would be less people buying. What incentive do they have for producing these if less people will buy?

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 06 April 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

There would be less people buying. What incentive do they have for producing these if less people will buy?

Really? You have 50 million c-bills laying around for a mech that you really want?

It seems like most people willing to buy them now, will still buy them to avoid a grind of several days, especially if it means getting the c-bill boost that doesn't come with the C-bill version.

You are also assuming the demand stays the same, and aren't factoring in the ill will that P2W heros cause. If heros aren't paywalled they can be used in all aspects of the game (such as "comp mode") meaning there is more demand for the heros, and more demand means more sales.

Do you think more people would buy mech packs if the mech packs were never going to make it in game for C-bills and could never be used in competitive mode? If anything more people would be likely to say "screw this" and leave.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 06 April 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Really? You have 50 million c-bills laying around for a mech that you really want?

It seems like most people willing to buy them now, will still buy them to avoid a grind of several days, especially if it means getting the c-bill boost that doesn't come with the C-bill version.

You are also assuming the demand stays the same, and aren't factoring in the ill will that P2W heros cause. If heros aren't paywalled they can be used in all aspects of the game (such as "comp mode") meaning there is more demand for the heros, and more demand means more sales.

Do you think more people would buy mech packs if the mech packs were never going to make it in game for C-bills and could never be used in competitive mode? If anything more people would be likely to say "screw this" and leave.

That's still less sales for them. There's still going to be those people who would rather buy it for c-bills than spend real money. And yeah there are some people who have that many c-bills on their account.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Crockdaddy, on 06 April 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

I think it would be fair for Heroes to end up as very high cost Cbill mechs without camos etc. I doubt it would hurt sales all that much. Most of us whom spend $ on this game are either

Busy with work and can afford the $ but do not always have the time to grind (myself).
Collects everything like a true Pokemon master.
Happens to have too much disposable income.
Addicted to all things BattleTech.
A true White Knight, one whom buys everything in sight to support the plebs er I mean the game.

*edit spelling*

I am in the same boat and spend $ because I can't grind everything, although I am not a collector of everything PGI puts out. I would prefer the c-bill and/or MC route as a player. I just think it might well cut $ sales more than we want to believe it would and PGI probably can't afford to take that chance...even if it cut sales only 10-20% why would PGI sign up for that? So, if PGI won't go the C-bill or MC route (which I don't believe they will) I wanted to suggest something that would give some avenue for non-paid access.

These heroes aren't comparable to buying new mechpacks as they really only offer slight improvements (or just different roles) over a known mech chassis. I think folks will always drop $ on new mechpacks as people do want something fresh and don't want to wait on something that looks cool to drive. As the playerbase, we would need to ask ourselves how much are we really willing to pay $-wise for early access to an extra energy hardpoint or ECM (plus a c-bill boost) on a chassis we already are familiar with? For myself that $-figure wouldn't be much...on all of these chassis it would be close to $0....sorry to say. The c-bill bonus is nice, but not really worth paying for as getting C-bills generally isn't a problem. For example the ECM is a nice buff to the Ice Ferret, but I don't like Ferret's enough to pay $ for it if I could get it for c-bills down the road.

If PGI could make the c-bill or MC thing work for them and us...I am for it...just suggesting another possibility if they can't see their way clear there and doubting they will.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 06 April 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Almond Brown, on 06 April 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

So you agree with Cathy that the majority of MWO players do not put up any RL $ in the effort to keep the lights on?

They draw in whales, so indirectly they DO help put up RL $ to help keep the lights on.

[Mcgral18]

MechaBattler, on 06 April 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

That's still less sales for them. There's still going to be those people who would rather buy it for c-bills than spend real money. And yeah there are some people who have that many c-bills on their account.

That is the entire point, though

Grind VS pay

Not superior equipment for $$
That's how you get fewer players, because a sense of unfairness (much like how Clams were OP AF on launch, for users who couldn't access them and their unbalanced arrival)