150 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Why would, for example, loss of agility, vision impairment, or HUD disruption be boring? Or does "boring" actually mean "I just don't want to deal with it" for some people?v

what you just described is boring.

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I'm not a fan. Damage is king in this game and I fear that will just bone lights more than they already are.

so make it a tiered increase and give lights the biggest increase and heavies the smallest increase with mediums and assaults in between.

but the game needs more internal structure to get it to a point where critical hits actually matter. because right now they dont matter at all.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2017 - 08:45 PM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 09 April 2017 - 08:35 PM, said:

If your aim is any good, that's probably all you need to end most mechs on the battlefield.

Probably not as much if the AlphaWarriorOnline beast has been slain.

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

what you just described is boring.

If you're the victim, maybe. But to a flamer Nova or tag team ...

I myself find the AlphaWarriorOnline gameplay extremely boring.

Edited by Mystere, 09 April 2017 - 08:50 PM.

[Pr8Dator2]

SQW, on 07 April 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

Chain fire is only bad now because thanks to PGI, there's no penalty to fire everything and ride that 90% heat warning. If your mech slows down by 30% at 50% heat and your reticle floats all over the place at 75% heat, then the trade-off between group fire and chain fire becomes apparent.

That's why BT came with a heat SCALE rather than a simple on/off switch at 100% heat.

That will only punish the med and long range guys and make the short range lights even more deadly... please don't let lights toy with assaults even more than they already are.

[Lily from animove]

you mean buff gauss and ballistics even more? do you really think heat penalies will fix issues if they will derp aim? all they do is people going to shift to those cool weapons not messing up aim by heat.

I am totally fine with some stuff in überboating and alphaspammign needing nerfs, (thats why I am still for a 30heat treshold) but messing up aim is going to not affect what people think it will.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2017 - 01:37 AM.

[Khobai]

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you emna buff gauss and ballistics even more? do you really think heat penalies will fix issues if they will derp aim? all they do is people going to shift to those cool weapons not messing up aim by heat.

exactly. you think gauss is overused now? wait till you penalize all the hot weapons, and all anyone uses is gauss to avoid those penalties.

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Chain fire is only bad now because thanks to PGI, there's no penalty to fire everything and ride that 90% heat warning.

So I switch to 4 gauss Kodiak build and generate no heat and suffer no penalties while everyone else suffers heat penalties and cant move or see anything.

All hail your new gauss overlords.

I really dont think youve thought this through. heat penalties will not fix anything. they will simply shift the meta to weapons that generate little or no heat.

the problem with alphastriking will still exist. the problem with boating will still existing. youve solved nothing whatsoever. all youve accomplished is limiting peoples weapon choices to low heat ballistics.


the problem isnt heat. the problem has NEVER been heat. the heatscale in MWO is far more prohibitive than it is in tabletop due to gimped heatsinks, ghost heat, and increased heat values on many weapons compared to their tabletop values (like IS medium lasers being 4 heat in MWO instead of 3 heat like in tabletop).

the problem, put simply, is that battletech's armor system is dependent on damage being spread around a mech's locations equally. While MWO allows people to aim their weapons at specific locations without spreading that damage around. It allows you to drill through mechs way faster than what should be possible.

the best solution to that problem is to implement more game mechanics that spread damage around. mechanics like beam duration, splash damage, spread, burst fire, ripple fire, etc... PGI has implemented those mechanics on a lot of weapons already. Unfortunately theyve left weapons like clan gauss completely unaffected by damage spreading mechanics. Its no wonder you see dual gauss on every marauder IIC out there.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 01:35 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

you emna buff gauss and ballistics even more? do you really think heat penalies will fix issues if they will derp aim? all they do is people going to shift to those cool weapons not messing up aim by heat.

I am totally fine with some stuff in überboating and alphaspammign needing nerfs, (thats why I am still for a 30heat treshold) but messing up aim is going to not affect what people think it will.

So, you think that firing 2 ERPPCs should shut any mech down from cold? And you think that everyone wouldn't switch to cold weapons under that paradigm as well?

[Khobai]

30 heat threshold is also ill-conceived.

Again all hail your new gauss overlords.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 10 April 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

So, you think that firing 2 ERPPCs should shut any mech down from cold? And you think that everyone wouldn't switch to cold weapons under that paradigm as well?

that dodn't shut you down in the old ME games, becase there was no weird running heat, but 2 ERPPC was the max you could fire at ONCE. But you disperce heat rather quickly allowing you still to fire a lot, but not in huge chunks as MWO allowed you. a NVA could fire all 6 CEML ONCE without shutdown.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2017 - 02:32 AM.

[Khobai]

30 heat threshold isnt gonna work. period. its too restrictive. and just leads to proliferation of gauss.

what might work is having a buffer where you suffer no heat penalties. the buffer would be equal to twice the number of double heatsinks your mech has.

so if your mech has 15 double heatsinks, your buffer would be 30. so the first 30 heat you generate would incur no heat penalties. But any heat beyond that 30 would be applied to the heatscale for penalties.

So if you generated 50 heat, the first 30 heat would be buffered by your heatsinks, but the remaining 20 heat would bring you upto to 20 out of 30 for heatscale penalties.

Thats much closer to how battletech heatscale works. And its more forgiving than simply having any heat you generate directly apply to penalties like some people seem to want. which is nuts.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 02:00 AM.

[Pr8Dator2]

When I read the title, I thought you were going to ask for a heat limit of 300! LOL!

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:

30 heat threshold isnt gonna work. period. its too restrictive. and just leads to proliferation of gauss.

what might work is having a buffer where you suffer no heat penalties. the buffer would be equal to twice the number of double heatsinks your mech has.

so if your mech has 15 double heatsinks, your buffer would be 30. so the first 30 heat you generate would incur no heat penalties. But any heat beyond that 30 would be applied to the heatscale for penalties.

So if you generated 50 heat, the first 30 would be ignored for purposes of penalties due to the buffer from having 15 double heatsinks, and the remaining 20 heat would bring you upto to 20 out of 30 for heatscale penalties.

Thats much closer to how battletech heatscale works. And its more forgiving than simply having any heat you generate apply penalties.

I actually think this is an interesting idea

[SQW]

Pr8Dator2, on 09 April 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

That will only punish the med and long range guys and make the short range lights even more deadly... please don't let lights toy with assaults even more than they already are.

Ironically, all the LCT and ACH pilots would ALSO scream bloody murder because they don't want to take 30% mobility debuff after 1 6xcSPLs alpha nor lose ability to aim at all after 2 alphas either. So we end up having this current incarnation of Assaults alpha like there's no tomorrow and lights able to core the said Assaults in 2-3 alphas.

Heat scale penalties works both ways. You are not the only 'victim' here.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 01:55 AM, said:

30 heat threshold isnt gonna work. period. its too restrictive. and just leads to proliferation of gauss.

what might work is having a buffer where you suffer no heat penalties. the buffer would be equal to twice the number of double heatsinks your mech has.

so if your mech has 15 double heatsinks, your buffer would be 30. so the first 30 heat you generate would incur no heat penalties. But any heat beyond that 30 would be applied to the heatscale for penalties.

So if you generated 50 heat, the first 30 heat would be buffered by your heatsinks, but the remaining 20 heat would bring you upto to 20 out of 30 for heatscale penalties.

Thats much closer to how battletech heatscale works. And its more forgiving than simply having any heat you generate directly apply to penalties like some people seem to want. which is nuts.

and how does that work on mechs with 30dhs or 10? in these extremes your system beraks, a heatscale with proper reistiction is exactly what is needed to prevent extreme conditions. 30 heattreshold limits what you can fire, heatsink amount defines how often you can fire. play MW3 and test around with how heat behaves there.

[Khobai]

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and how does that work on mechs with 30dhs or 10?

uh the same exact way it works in battletech

the more heatsinks you have the more weapons you can fire before suffering penalties

the system rewards you for having more heatsinks. and punishes you for having less. thats how it should work. its how it works in battletech afterall.

if you spend tonnage on heatsinks you should reap the benefits of doing so. Imagine that. spending tonnage on something and getting a benefit from it.

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30 heattreshold limits what you can fire, heatsink amount defines how often you can fire. play MW3 and test around with how heat behaves there.

except 30 heat threshold just forces you into dual gauss builds. because they allow you to maximize your firepower under that kindve heat constraint. 2 gauss and 2 erppc is 30 heat for example. 1+1+14+14 = 30

congratulations you have created an environment for 2 gauss/2erppc to thrive in. because it wasnt good enough already. we can not only still do our 60 damage alphas but we get rewarded for it because its not over 30 heat.

yeah no thanks. 30 heat threshold simply will not work.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 02:50 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

uh the same exact way it works in battletech

the more heatsinks you have the more weapons you can fire before suffering penalties

the system rewards you for having more heatsinks. and punishes you for having less. thats how it should work. its how it works in battletech afterall.

if you spend tonnage on heatsinks you should reap the benefits of doing so.



except 30 heat threshold just forces you into dual gauss builds. because they allow you to maximize your firepower under that kindve heat constraint. 2 gauss and 4 erml is exactly 30 heat for example.

literally everyone will use dual gauss because there is no reason not to.

bzut dual gauss will sacrifice a lot tonnage youc an utilise in hneatsinks and when heatsinks aren't gimped anymore the utility of heat dependend weapons will rise. Because curently heta spikes and then limits heavily in the sustained battles. A more proper system will limit your initial possible spike but allow you a lot moe sustained damage. Because in the end DPS matters if it is porper enough, but the current huge heattreshold is exactly what prefers peek aboo battles where you spike high, cool down, and spike high again.

[Khobai]

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bzut dual gauss will sacrifice a lot tonnage youc an utilise in hneatsinks and when heatsinks aren't gimped anymore

youre not making any sense. if the whole point of a 30 heat threshold is that its supposed to stop massive alphas, yet you can still do it with dual gauss/dual erppc... so it fails miserably.

with a heat cap of 30 there is no reason not to use dual gauss because it gives you the absolute best damage for heat in the game. dual gauss + dual erppc is exactly 30 heat. its 50 pinpoint damage plus 10 splash damage at long range for 30 heat. what other combination of weapons gives you that amount of pinpoint damage, range, for that low amount of heat?

with heat that restricted, it would be stupid not to use dual gauss in concert with ppcs/lasers. youre gimping yourself by not using it.

again its a really terrible idea. that just makes gauss so appealing that dual gauss will be used on everything thats 65 tons or up.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 03:09 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 03:01 AM, said:

youre not making any sense. if the whole point of a 30 heat threshold is that its supposed to stop massive alphas, yet you can still do it with dual gauss/dual erppc... so it fails miserably.

with a heat cap of 30 there is no reason not to use dual gauss because it gives you the absolute best damage for heat in the game. dual gauss + dual erppc is exactly 30 heat. its 50 pinpoint damage plus 10 splash damage at long range for 30 heat. what other combination of weapons gives you that amount of pinpoint damage, range, for that low amount of heat?

with heat that restricted, it would be stupid not to use dual gauss in concert with ppcs/lasers. youre gimping yourself by not using it.

again its a really terrible idea. that just makes gauss so appealing that dual gauss will be used on everything thats 65 tons or up.

Bbbbbb--bbut the nasty people keep shooting the lasorvomitz at me while i stares at them. IT MUST BE STAHPED!

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 03:01 AM, said:

youre not making any sense. if the whole point of a 30 heat threshold is that its supposed to stop massive alphas, yet you can still do it with dual gauss/dual erppc... so it fails miserably.

with a heat cap of 30 there is no reason not to use dual gauss because it gives you the absolute best damage for heat in the game. dual gauss + dual erppc is exactly 30 heat. its 50 pinpoint damage plus 10 splash damage at long range for 30 heat. what other combination of weapons gives you that amount of pinpoint damage, range, for that low amount of heat?

with heat that restricted, it would be stupid not to use dual gauss in concert with ppcs/lasers. youre gimping yourself by not using it.

again its a really terrible idea. that just makes gauss so appealing that dual gauss will be used on everything thats 65 tons or up.

30 heat isn't going to dual gauss and dual ERPPC (or do your gauss cuase 0 heat?), thats above 30 heat. And thats not even a massive alpha at all.

and there are plenty of combiantions workign better than dual gauss and dual ppc with proper coolant, don't forgt with your dual Gaus your won't have much heat dissipation and not even sue your ppc's that often. you can only fie such a volley every 8,5 seconds, not that much at all if you don't pakc in more heatsinks than the 10 standard ones.
And your diea still penalises mechs with only 10 heatsinks, which means many of your lights will be broken because they can't afford more than 10 heatsinks ever.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2017 - 04:19 AM.

[Khobai]

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30 heat isn't going to dual gauss and dual ERPPC (or do your gauss cuase 0 heat?), thats above 30 heat.

gauss = 1 heat
cerppc = 14 heat

1 + 1 + 14 + 14 = 30

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

gauss = 1 heat
cerppc = 14 heat

1 + 1 + 14 + 14 = 30

yes thats because PGI changed heat values to crappy ones that break even more systems, but I was referign to MW3 for a reason, they have the ehat values still better. So it should utilise those heat values and not the flavor of the month ones from PGI. PGi should a lot less mess up heats and better adjust damage values.

[Khobai]

or how bout we just acknowledge that heat isnt the problem. because its not.

again the problem is pinpoint damage and that people can vomit all their weapons into one location rather than damage being spread out and randomized.

your 30 heat threshold doesnt fix that at all. because I can still do my dual gauss, dual erppc frontloaded pinpoint super damage alphastrikes.

the only way to fix that is to add more game mechanics that spread damage around.


im not saying the heat system cant be improved upon. but it should be done in a way that makes the game more like a battletech sim. it should actually make the game more fun and immersive. not more restrictive and limiting.

your 30 heat cap is neither fun nor immersive. its just another irritating curtailment like ghost heat. and furthermore it doesnt even prevent the biggest problem in the game which is pinpoint alphastrikes. so whats the point? its certainly no better than what we have now, and arguably much worse.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 04:56 AM.