71 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

not really you can sell one omni and buy the next and just get the variant u want to keep last and elite it

but you still have to buy 3 different ones to master the one you want to keep

just because you sell them doesnt change the fact you have to buy 3 of them

[Lily from animove]

drifter bob, on 10 April 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

not really you can sell one omni and buy the next and just get the variant u want to keep last and elite it

you can/have to do the same with battlemechs as omnimechs, this doesn't actually differ. Except maybe, you can recycle the engine of the Battlemech, while on the omnimechsyo have to pay for it 3x and resell it 2x for lower costs (and fixed equipment as well).

[drifter bob]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

but you still have to buy 3 different ones to master the one you want to keep

just because you sell them doesnt change the fact you have to buy 3 of them

True but it does save on mechbays and for ppl (like me ) who cant drop that much cash on mwo thats a nice plus. But yeah u can do the same with battlemechs if the chassis variants dont differ much

Also i just wanted to say on the topic of i.s omni's with locked engines if there ever was a case to be made for i.s xl's to be torso loss survivable (at least on the omnis) this would be it. from a pure gameplay perspective i.s std/xl was a trade off and since clan omni's did'nt have a choice they shouldn't have to make the trade off this argument could be made for is omni mechs

clan battlemechs get it both ways though but hey i love my kodiak

also for the lore hounds i guess a case could be made that its based on clan tech?

[C E Dwyer]

First off people seem to be forgetting or just flat out ignoring what the concept of an Omnimech is, which is to have a single mech with a flexible pay load, that could be changed quickly, each pod had fixed weapons and you changed the pod in a matter of a day or so.

If you had a Prime and you needed a B you changed all the pods over, you didn't mix and match.

Any game which allows as extensive customisation as this does, is always going to turn a big millitary advantage into a game flaw.

The idea of Omni's wasn't to make them more powerful, but to be far more flexible a combat unit, with the minimum amount of mechs taken per drop ship, meaning that the number of drop ships required is far less than a force containing only Battlemechs.





Most of the Omni mechs being called gimped are not.

The ones that are being called gimped, do however have extremely limited builds that are viable, but that doesn't make them gimped, it does however impact on the design concept of an omnimech.

The Summoner , The LineBacker, both have viable ERPPC builds, and SRM striker builds, the Linebacker also makes a viable laser brawler, the line backer is a bit ammo starved, because of the big engine, which is an advantage for a striker.

The Mad Dog is even more limited, but it's splat dog build wrecks face.

Putting aside competition play as there are very few mechs genuinely viable options. The amount of clan mechs that don't have a viable build for F.W or Q.P are very small.

The above mentioned mechs plus the gargoyle, need their fixed Ferro, changed to Fixed Endo, to give them more flexibility

Mist Lynx needs torso mounts period, and the way the weapons spawn on it's arms changed to top, side, bottom. Also the ECM removed from Arm to Torso.



The Warhawk needs slightly more, it needs Fixed Ferro changed to Fixed Endo two heat sinks unlocked in it's Left torso, and a ballistic point added to it's left arm, while it's supposed to be an energy boat, it's other options are flawed due to only having room to store ammo in arms where the weapons go, or the right torso.

Making the changes I'm putting forward allows it to have four ballistic's in the arms if you have the hero somthing the MADIIC can't do, and some flexibility in the ammo location.

I am not getting involved with the paywall argument, that is a different subject, this is about how to improve Omni's.

[Baulven]

Cathy, on 10 April 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

First off people seem to be forgetting or just flat out ignoring what the concept of an Omnimech is, which is to have a single mech with a flexible pay load, that could be changed quickly, each pod had fixed weapons and you changed the pod in a matter of a day or so.

If you had a Prime and you needed a B you changed all the pods over, you didn't mix and match.

Any game which allows as extensive customisation as this does, is always going to turn a big millitary advantage into a game flaw.

The idea of Omni's wasn't to make them more powerful, but to be far more flexible a combat unit, with the minimum amount of mechs taken per drop ship, meaning that the number of drop ships required is far less than a force containing only Battlemechs.





Most of the Omni mechs being called gimped are not.

The ones that are being called gimped, do however have extremely limited builds that are viable, but that doesn't make them gimped, it does however impact on the design concept of an omnimech.

The Summoner , The LineBacker, both have viable ERPPC builds, and SRM striker builds, the Linebacker also makes a viable laser brawler, the line backer is a bit ammo starved, because of the big engine, which is an advantage for a striker.

The Mad Dog is even more limited, but it's splat dog build wrecks face.

Putting aside competition play as there are very few mechs genuinely viable options. The amount of clan mechs that don't have a viable build for F.W or Q.P are very small.

The above mentioned mechs plus the gargoyle, need their fixed Ferro, changed to Fixed Endo, to give them more flexibility

Mist Lynx needs torso mounts period, and the way the weapons spawn on it's arms changed to top, side, bottom. Also the ECM removed from Arm to Torso.



The Warhawk needs slightly more, it needs Fixed Ferro changed to Fixed Endo two heat sinks unlocked in it's Left torso, and a ballistic point added to it's left arm, while it's supposed to be an energy boat, it's other options are flawed due to only having room to store ammo in arms where the weapons go, or the right torso.

Making the changes I'm putting forward allows it to have four ballistic's in the arms if you have the hero somthing the MADIIC can't do, and some flexibility in the ammo location.

I am not getting involved with the paywall argument, that is a different subject, this is about how to improve Omni's.

Yea some of the mechs mentioned aren't truly bad but others need help. The biggest change I would like to see (since incremental is better than sweeping) is unlocking heatsink (single/dual) FF and ES. The extra tonnage would go a long way to helping out a lot to making more mechs have viable builds and not super restricted ones.

Like my fridge (yes I have a man crush on the ice ferret, don't judge) with the two and a half extra tons could run ERML much better or SPL much cooler. Granted with the ECM upgrade that might be a bit much, though we won't know until it gets here.

Things I don't think need unlocked at all are jump jets. Pop tart should not be encouraged.

[Khobai]

Quote

Any game which allows as extensive customisation as this does, is always going to turn a big millitary advantage into a game flaw.

The idea of Omni's wasn't to make them more powerful, but to be far more flexible a combat unit, with the minimum amount of mechs taken per drop ship, meaning that the number of drop ships required is far less than a force containing only Battlemechs.

except theyre not more flexible

because an omnimech with perfect hardpoints has no advantage over a battlemech with perfect hardpoints

thats why the direwolf is inferior to the kodiak for example

omnimechs need some other advantage because the whole swapping omnipods thing is not worth the downside of locked engines and locked equipment.

I still like the idea of each mech or at the very least each weight class having its own unique skill tree. maybe give omnimechs their own unique skill tree as well to give them some degree of flexibility which theyre supposed to have but lacking.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 04:44 AM.

[Lily from animove]

The advantage of omnimechs was also to easily swap out a broken pod for a new spare one, bt both this, and refitting doesn'T exists in MWO, so thats why the only true advantage of Omnimechs is basically gone. While the disadvantages of battlemechs are nonexistend except for the hardpoint selection.

this alone is a reason why PGI should reconsider those weird construction rules which simply cater some omnimechs and hinder others.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2017 - 04:42 AM.

[R Valentine]

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

not really. i look at all of them. Like I said before: some are fine but others need help.

Not really. You've only mentioned the Linebacker, which while not on the level of the best omnis isn't gimp. Hard point choices and locations always kill mechs, not weight, and the Linebacker is at least usable.

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

There are plenty of examples where the downside of locked equipment is worse than the downside of ISXL

The executioner for example loses 12 tons because of locked jumpjets and masc. plus it cant take endo because its locked so thats like another 4 tons. Id be perfectly fine with the executioner dying on a side torso loss if meant unlocked equipment and freeing up those 16 tons.

losing 16 tons to useless locked equipment is far worse than dying when you lose a side torso.

And the XL engine is the least of the problems of a lot of IS mechs. Even the best IS mechs still have to contend with the XL engine making them excessively fragile, I still wouldn't look at omnimechs at all until the IS mechs at the bottom get buffed.

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

so yeah gimped omnimech is gimped.

And yet still better than a gimped IS battlemech.

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

because common sense.

if you rebalance the game now, then youll still have to rebalance it again when IS gets new tech

So? You have to rebalance anytime you add anything. By that logic we shouldn't balance ever because the game will always be changing. Common sense? No, that's complete and utter nonsense.

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

it makes more sense to only rebalance the game one time.

Which will never happen. Everything will always be in flux. You may as well never balance it at all.

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

besides clan vs IS hasnt been balanced for 3 years so whats another few months?

More bad logic. People aren't allowed to have a few good months? Things have always sucked so what's the harm in them still sucking? That's a horrible decision.

Khobai, on 10 April 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

except were talking about omnimechs not clan battlemechs

clan battlemechs might be overpowered. but thats not what this discussion is about. this discussion is about how to fix the gimped omnimechs. not how to nerf clan battlemechs.

Except we are talking clan battlemechs because that's what the OP was talking about. He was comparing clan omnis to clan battles and stating how battlemechs were so much better. Well, they are, but that doesn't mean omnis need help. Quite the opposite. It means clan battlemechs need huge nerfs.

[stealthraccoon]

De-CAP Mist Lynx... that is all.

[Natred]

Huntsman seem to be one of the ones that needs some slots opened up. Trying to fit a small pulse laser build with srms just dont happen..

[Baulven]

If the clan omni line was allowed to freely choose endo and FF would this provide enough of a change to help mediocre chassis options? I think at a minimum it would improve their capabilities.