71 replies to this topic

[Baulven]

Kiran Yagami, on 09 April 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Still don't buy it that omnimechs are gimp. The Ebon Jag is one of the most popular mechs on the field and it has no quirks to speak of. It also has a plethora of viable builds. Vindicators are one of the most quirked mechs in the game and virtually never seen. The omnimechs that are bad have almost nothing to do with the locked armor/internal slots that they're supposed to have, and if you went by lore then they'd have locked armor tonnage too(be thankful PGI didn't stick you with that one). They have bad hardpoints, just like all of the bad IS mechs, only there are a lot more bad IS mechs. As long as the game remains hill peekers 'r' us, those mechs will always be bad.

The ebon jag is already optimized out the *** though, and this recommendation would do precisely zip for it. That is the reason why clan has meta beasts, there happen to be a handful of super optimized, wet dream munchkin mechs, and everything else that didn't win the grab bag lottery (i.e. fridge would be better with the extra 2.5 tons from ES for example.) The simple fact is that this sort of things would help the lower tier far more than upper tier as long as you don't unlock everything (like jump jets should remain locked or everything will turn into a poptart.)

[R Valentine]

Baulven, on 09 April 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

The ebon jag is already optimized out the *** though, and this recommendation would do precisely zip for it. That is the reason why clan has meta beasts, there happen to be a handful of super optimized, wet dream munchkin mechs, and everything else that didn't win the grab bag lottery (i.e. fridge would be better with the extra 2.5 tons from ES for example.) The simple fact is that this sort of things would help the lower tier far more than upper tier as long as you don't unlock everything (like jump jets should remain locked or everything will turn into a poptart.)

Yea, no. The clan mechs like the Ebon Jag and the IIC mechs are all over-performing. There's maybe a handful of clan omnimechs, like the Ice Ferret, that are horribad. The rest are fine. What needs to happen is IIC mechs need to come down, and they need to come down a lot. The MAD IIC and the Hunchback IIC are so much better than every other mech in the game right now. Even a lot of omnimechs need to come down, like the Night Gyr.

[Baulven]

Kiran Yagami, on 09 April 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yea, no. The clan mechs like the Ebon Jag and the IIC mechs are all over-performing. There's maybe a handful of clan omnimechs, like the Ice Ferret, that are horribad. The rest are fine. What needs to happen is IIC mechs need to come down, and they need to come down a lot. The MAD IIC and the Hunchback IIC are so much better than every other mech in the game right now. Even a lot of omnimechs need to come down, like the Night Gyr.

Kodiak still beats out the MAD IIC handily. As for Hunch, that is all because of the hard point mounts. The EBJ is strong for a 65 ton mech but it doesn't beat out the Gyr or Timber in competitive play.

Also nothing I said was incorrect. All of those mechs already have all the options open or they won the mech optimization lottery.

[razenWing]

Baulven, on 09 April 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Kodiak still beats out the MAD IIC handily. As for Hunch, that is all because of the hard point mounts. The EBJ is strong for a 65 ton mech but it doesn't beat out the Gyr or Timber in competitive play.

Also nothing I said was incorrect. All of those mechs already have all the options open or they won the mech optimization lottery.

Kodiak is not an Omni... a more apt comparison in this case is whether the Warhawk is anywhere CLOSE to the MAD IIC. Or whether the Direwhale is anywhere CLOSE to the Kodiak.

Both are not.

(Garg and Exe vs Clan battlemechs? Ask yourself, would you rather have Exe or MK II that's coming out this summer?)

Edited by razenWing, 09 April 2017 - 02:04 PM.

[Baulven]

razenWing, on 09 April 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Kodiak is not an Omni... a more apt comparison in this case is whether the Warhawk is anywhere CLOSE to the MAD IIC. Or whether the Direwhale is anywhere CLOSE to the Kodiak.

Both are not.

(Garg and Exe vs Clan battlemechs? Ask yourself, would you rather have Exe or MK II that's coming out this summer?)

I am well aware the Kodiak is a battlemech, as are the IIC mechs he quoted. My point is for all of the omni mechs unless they unlock literally everything it is doubtful top performers will get a boost. For example unlocking endo and fero for omni's won't help a single top performer because they all already have it.

Things like the Ebon jag have high hard points on the torso, plenty of space and tonnage, and all the mandatory upgrades to help them out. Things without those will always be underpowered, and omnimech construction rules require that the omnimechs continue to be subpar due to this.

[Andi Nagasia]

Perhaps its time to bring back Bishops Endo for all OmniMechs Topic,
though i still think its unlikely to happen until IS get some OmniToys,

[R Valentine]

Baulven, on 09 April 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Kodiak still beats out the MAD IIC handily. As for Hunch, that is all because of the hard point mounts. The EBJ is strong for a 65 ton mech but it doesn't beat out the Gyr or Timber in competitive play.

Also nothing I said was incorrect. All of those mechs already have all the options open or they won the mech optimization lottery.

The MAD IIC still takes a dump on every IS assault or clan omni. The Kodiak is also broken as all hell. All clan battlemechs need the nerf bat. It's not omnis that are the problem. There are plenty of broken omnis. It's the clan battlemechs that need to come down and down hard.

[Baulven]

Kiran Yagami, on 09 April 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

The MAD IIC still takes a dump on every IS assault or clan omni. The Kodiak is also broken as all hell. All clan battlemechs need the nerf bat. It's not omnis that are the problem. There are plenty of broken omnis. It's the clan battlemechs that need to come down and down hard.

The mad IIC is on par with the battlemaster if you know where to aim to isolate it's hit boxes. Granted it's a solid mech. As for the IIC line itself being an issue may I direct your attention to the orion and Highlander, both IIc mechs and sub par. The game went a long time without having a proper clan assault (Direwhale is pondering and prone to ganks, Mr gargles and Executioner have too much locked tonnage, Warhawk has terrible hit boxes) which is why those two seem so out of place. Granted the KDK3 needs adjustment still, which would only be viable if they moved the top pair of ballistics down by a significant margin.

Tech imbalance I understand and it needs to addressed (hell I lobbied for dual torso destruction on the ISXL and lower slots for fero and endo) but blanket nerfs to clan isn't going to address that issue. All it will do is force even more stupid restrictions for no reason. No one likes being arbitrarily locked into a bad situation, and I am sure we will hear tons of complaints once IS omni's are a thing.

[Khobai]

Quote

Still don't buy it that omnimechs are gimp.

Because youre only looking at the best ones like the ebon jaguar

Look at some of the worst ones and youll see theyre gimp

Like the linebacker for example. its 10 tons HEAVIER than a stormcrow but has 6 tons less pod space because of its inefficient engine filled with heatsinks. That is pathetic. It carries less firepower than a mech thats 10 tons lighter and doesnt even go faster. All because it inefficiently wastes its tonnage on the wrong engine.

so yeah the linebacker is a 100% gimped omnimech.

Quote

All clan battlemechs need the nerf bat

Or buff IS by giving them LFE engines.

LFE is going to help a lot with leveling the playing field.

I personally would hold off on nerfs until the new tech comes out.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2017 - 09:25 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

Because youre only looking at the best ones like the ebon jaguar

granted it has alot of use, but id have to say the NTG and TBR still hold the Crown,
the EBJ still has some HitBox issues(bad HitBoxes not Broken HitBoxes),
perhaps a slight ST Structure Buff, no more than +5-7, then retest,

[Khobai]

Quote

granted it has alot of use, but id have to say the NTG and TBR still hold the Crown,
the EBJ still has some HitBox issues(bad HitBoxes not Broken HitBoxes),
perhaps a slight ST Structure Buff, no more than +5-7, then retest,

NTG and TBR are limited by their weight in faction play though. Ebon Jaguar is the sweet spot for tonnage in faction play

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

NTG and TBR are limited by their weight in faction play though. Ebon Jaguar is the sweet spot for tonnage in faction play

General Discussion subforums: "We don't play faction play because its unbalanced and a bad gamemode. Lets not spend time balancing faction play or even knowing how because we don't play faction play."

Its kinda funny how little faction play balance gets taken into account here. For example how the Kodiak used to be viable as a Clan 100 tonner in FP but now is mostly useless in comparison to lighter mechs that are more able to dodge damage and not be focused down especially since you can't even bring 2 Kodiaks into FP anymore with a 240 ton limit, previously 250 allowed 2 kodiaks and 2 mist lynx. Back when it could bring quad UAC10s and double tap them it's high firepower made it worth the weight. This was rather gamebreaking in solo queue though.

Honestly there is a large disconnect in balance between the two modes and group queue due to weight. In quick play solo matches it makes some sense to want all mechs to be equal in performance even at different weights for the sake of balance and so that 80 tonners aren't useless compared to 100 tonners. However, this method of balance falls apart when faced with faction play and group queue in which tonnage limits what mechs you can bring. In that case why would you bring a 100 ton mech if a 75 ton mech provides equal or better performance as they do currently. In faction play a 100 ton mech should be twice as good as a 50 tonner, maybe not as fast, but with even more than double firepower and armor to compensate. In solo queue this would lead to no one using anything but assaults.

[Khobai]

the Kodiak is still pretty broken in faction play if you ask me. I still do well over 1000 damage with it when I bring it out. And the only reason I cant do more is because of ammo limitations.

But bringing the Kodiak means my other three mechs have to be lights and mediums. So its not conducive to doing good all around damage with all 4 mechs. taking the kodiak means your other three mechs are gimped so its not worth it.

I do my highest overall damage with all four mechs when I bring three heavies and a medium or light. And heavies like the hellbringer/ebonjaguar are in the tonnage sweet spot for that. And consequently they also happen to be the perfect mix of firepower, survivability, and speed.

And Timber Wolves and Night Gyrs are great but their tonnage is just a little too high with a 240T limit. Its hard to fit more than one of them in your drop deck and still stay on the heavy side with your other drops.

Quote

Honestly there is a large disconnect in balance between the two modes and group queue due to weight.

I agree which is why I always felt 3/3/3/3 was a better way of balancing teams than by weight limits. Or 1/1/1/1 in the case of drop decks for faction play.

Because a 100 ton mech is not necessarily better than two 50 ton mechs. Yet weight limits would have to believe thats the case when its not.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2017 - 09:22 PM.

[Lykaon]

razenWing, on 08 April 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

This is very similar to El Bandito's argument which I posted right after you posted yours. Basically.. NO ONE use one Omnimech to switch between "missions."

1: There are no "missions."
2: Mechs are not so expensive with Cbill, that you wouldn't just get 4-5 of the same thing.
3: No one in the right mind except super Cheapskape that don't mind weighing their own unitmate down for 10 min between matches will have just ONE omnimechs to switch weapons. If you do, shame on you for being a cheapskape.

Not taking advantage of a perk is not the same as it not existing.

1) Mission equates to role and play style. There is a significant difference between an SRM brawler build and a Laser ZVomit build or even a PPFLD sniper or LRM carrier. These all play very differently and have their own "mission profiles" or roles.

2) C-bills equates to time spent. One could go and buy a battlemech for each and every role they desire to use of one solid clan omnimech and a few sets of pods. It's very easy to spend 15 million on a battlemech and upgrades for that mech. Endo steel DHS and XL engines all add to the costs. So buying and outfitting several battlemechs is a significant time sink.

One omnimech? I would think considerably less time spent on an omnimech chassis and some spare pods and weapons.

3) Unitmate? there are people who do not play in units and...you could maybe just maybe planned ahead and reconfigured BEFORE you plan to play with a unit.

Cheapskate or new and have not spent literally hundreds of hours earning c-bills to outfit a fleet of battlemechs.



The total costs for a set of role flexable omnimechs is noticably lower in invested time,c-bills and real money.

How many mech bays will a player need to to own to gain full mastery in a specific mech role and weight class?


I want a laser boat (Grasshoppers look nice)
We will need 3 of a chassis type
3 mech bays
Time to elite two mechs and master the desired chassis variant.

Congratz you now have ONE role covered on to the next mech role..

SRM brawler ( I hear good things about griffins)

three more chassis
three more mech bays
More time to elite two and master the actual one you want.

Ok now you have two roles covered.

Want a third role?

Assault Brawler ( Kodiaks seem to be the way to go for this role)

three more mechs three more mech bays more time for XP grinding ...Maybe I want an LRM carrier next,3 more of everything...

or...

Buy three Ebon jaguars and master a single set of chassis for a grand total of

3 mech bays
3 chassis
time for three mastered chassis
Some spare pods
And three sets of essential modules


If you can't see an advantage here you are well out of touch with what new players have to go through.

[R Valentine]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

Because youre only looking at the best ones like the ebon jaguar Look at some of the worst ones and youll see theyre gimp Like the linebacker for example. its 10 tons HEAVIER than a stormcrow but has 6 tons less pod space because of its inefficient engine filled with heatsinks. That is pathetic. It carries less firepower than a mech thats 10 tons lighter and doesnt even go faster. All because it inefficiently wastes its tonnage on the wrong engine. so yeah the linebacker is a 100% gimped omnimech. Or buff IS by giving them LFE engines. LFE is going to help a lot with leveling the playing field. I personally would hold off on nerfs until the new tech comes out.

And you do the exact opposite, which is only look at the gimp ones, which are still better than their IS counterparts. Do they die on a side torso loss? Oh no? Then that's not where I'd be looking to buff things.

And why would you hold off on nerfs until new tech? That's months from now. Is that our new motto? "Hold off under something new comes out, not like PGI puts things on hold and never releases them or anything." Uh, no. You balance the game as is. Not as it could be maybe sorta might be sometime soon TM. If mechs are over-performing, you bring them down. Clan battlemechs just add to an already broken system, but you gotta start somewhere so I'd start with what's at the top.

[Lily from animove]

FupDup, on 08 April 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

That's not how it worked. Omnimechs in old MW games used the exact same customization rules as Battlemechs. Change armor however you want, change engine however you want, put any weapon in any location (before MW4), etc. There was no difference between them.

The only difference was that MW4 gave Omnimechs a small number of Omni hardpoints that could use any weapon type (although most of their hardpoints were still restricted to just energy/missile/ballistic like Battlemechs).

the more truth is, mW1-3 was not even having any hardpoints, it was just slap a gun whereever it ould fit and go firing. This cuased alot balance already as tonnage was the only limitation. But the Huge issue in MOW is hardpoints vs Battlemechs vs Omnimechs.

the worst you can get is omnimech with bad hardpintplacement (MLX anyone?). Nothing in the torsi thats wort it. Huge arms when there are lasers.

The second worst is Battlmeehcs with bad hardpoints.

The second best is an Omnimech with near ideal engine choise and FF/ES choice as well as no unnnedd fixed equipment this technically is an optimised omnimech perfoming as good as an Battlemech.

The best is simply a Battlemech with the perfect Hardoint selection, as it can simply utilise the absolte free Battlemech customisation at no penalties.

For balance PGI could remove the locked engine and equip rules, Beacsue no omnicmehc will perform better than any battlemehc with the right hardpoint configurations. They will in bets case perform equal.
However the battlemehcs with bad hardpoints and omnimechs with bad hardpoints will kinda always suck. Ok, PGI could invent new pods to fix that issues, but they would also have to design new battlemechs wiht proper hardpoints for soem chassis to fix balance for battlemechs with bad hardpoints

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 April 2017 - 12:44 AM.

[Baulven]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 April 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

granted it has alot of use, but id have to say the NTG and TBR still hold the Crown,
the EBJ still has some HitBox issues(bad HitBoxes not Broken HitBoxes),
perhaps a slight ST Structure Buff, no more than +5-7, then retest,

That is because both of the choices you stated have jump jets. If the EBJ had jump jets and could poptart as well it would likely be ahead of the timber simply because its hardpoints are higher so the person doesn't need to expose as much of the mech.

[Khobai]

Quote

And you do the exact opposite, which is only look at the gimp ones

not really. i look at all of them. Like I said before: some are fine but others need help.

Quote

Do they die on a side torso loss? Oh no? Then that's not where I'd be looking to buff things.

There are plenty of examples where the downside of locked equipment is worse than the downside of ISXL

The executioner for example loses 12 tons because of locked jumpjets and masc. plus it cant take endo because its locked so thats like another 4 tons. Id be perfectly fine with the executioner dying on a side torso loss if meant unlocked equipment and freeing up those 16 tons.

losing 16 tons to useless locked equipment is far worse than dying when you lose a side torso.

so yeah gimped omnimech is gimped.

Quote

And why would you hold off on nerfs until new tech? That's months from now

because common sense.

if you rebalance the game now, then youll still have to rebalance it again when IS gets new tech

it makes more sense to only rebalance the game one time.

besides clan vs IS hasnt been balanced for 3 years so whats another few months?

Quote

Clan battlemechs just add to an already broken system

except were talking about omnimechs not clan battlemechs

clan battlemechs might be overpowered. but thats not what this discussion is about. this discussion is about how to fix the gimped omnimechs. not how to nerf clan battlemechs.

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2017 - 01:10 AM.

[Baulven]

Kiran Yagami, on 09 April 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

And you do the exact opposite, which is only look at the gimp ones, which are still better than their IS counterparts. Do they die on a side torso loss? Oh no? Then that's not where I'd be looking to buff things.

And why would you hold off on nerfs until new tech? That's months from now. Is that our new motto? "Hold off under something new comes out, not like PGI puts things on hold and never releases them or anything." Uh, no. You balance the game as is. Not as it could be maybe sorta might be sometime soon TM. If mechs are over-performing, you bring them down. Clan battlemechs just add to an already broken system, but you gotta start somewhere so I'd start with what's at the top.

Actually due to the rescale a lot of people advocated not changing any mech quirks until the dust settled (PGI did anyways) because we had no idea what the end product would look like. The one two combo of size increase and quirk reduction is why a lot of lights and some mediums haven't been viable to close to a year now.

And as I said before not every IIC over performs. Every IIC you have a gripe against has god hardpoints, and unless they change the art that won't be nerfable.

[drifter bob]

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

except you need three stormcrow variants to master the stormcrow. so no you still need three. and three mechbays. so no thats not an advantage of omnimechs.

also in all due fairness the stormcrow is not representitive of all omnimechs. most omnimechs are crap compared to battlemechs. the stormcrow is one of the few exceptions because its locked equipment is ideal and isnt a burden. many omnimechs are dragged down severely by locked equipment.

so yeah the best omnimechs are fine. but the worst omnimechs do need help.

not really you can sell one omni and buy the next and just get the variant u want to keep last and elite it