96 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Paying for an advantage Free players do not have access to
Extra hardpoints
More optimal hardpoints

They both result in outright superior options to Free alternatives

Examples include:
Ultra Violence (highest, longest range DPS)
Cute Fox (best Light poker, with ECM, high mounts, JJs and a large number of hardpoints)
Ice Fridge (Pure advantage with ECM, already the strongest fast mover, durability of a 55 tonner)

Myth Lynx (4->6 hardpoints, pure advantage. Yes, he can use all of them effectively, don't build Potato)
Mr Gargles getting any ST hardpoints period, paywalled

Then there's the less offending Pay 2 Optimize, which include the Loki
He actually gains an entire ton, by swapped the arm mount to the ST, resulting in 6 high mounts, ECM and +1 ton of payload.
No Freemium option for that, but less erogenous than other options.

Lupis Volk, on 08 April 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

I have been giving a "an actual, concrete definition of Pay to Win" The response has been people screeching at me, either i don't know what P2W means or that there's "no" defined meaning.

It would probably help if you would stop crying, and start listening

[Monkey Lover]

Its pay 2 balance. If you want more balanced clan mechs you have to have cash now. Funny how so many people support this.

[Ultimax]

Requiemking, on 08 April 2017 - 11:11 PM, said:

So, with the recent Clan hero preorder, a lot of P2W accusation have been slung around.

OK, the problem is most people are either just bad at expressing the heart of the issue or probably simply don't understand it.


None of these mechs are likely to be overpowered compared to the best mechs in their weight classes.

They are however likely to be some of, if not the most, optimized versions of each of those chassis (and possibly much better than many mechs in their weight classes)


What gets thrown about as "pay to win" - a phrase that is around for a long time that everyone is really familiar with - is more like "pay to optimize".


What that means is if you want the optimal (best) configurations of these mechs - then you have to pay real money to do so.


Generally that is bad for a variety of reasons in a "free to play" game.


PGI has been dabbling with this in some fashion for years, with their "pay for early advantage" model as they churn out mechpacks that grant access to mechs for real money long before they are available for cbills (and then sometimes nerfed after that point, which doesn't really help their credibility).


They could do the same with Heroes.

The fancy paint job, increase the CBill boost to +50% but then make a generic, no paint, no bonus version available for CBills X amount of months later.

It would still be problematic from a balance standpoint from time to time but it wouldn't put them into a position where they have to repeatedly nerf things that customers had to pay real money for.

It's by no means a perfect solution, but it would be better than the current situation.

Edited by Ultimax, 09 April 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lupis Volk, on 09 April 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

If you had the ability to use Critical Thinking, you wouldn't be asking those question


Reported
Ignored

[Lupis Volk]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

If you had the ability to use Critical Thinking, you wouldn't be asking those question


Reported
Ignored

Wow way to abuse the report feature. That clearly shows how immature you are, you can't argue with me so now your reporting me like a little child would do to a better player on Call of Duty.

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Though, before we leave, we must make an important statement:

Don't balance by Potato



If he can't understand how the game is played, or what makes those builds good, he isn't a good choice in debating balance

Aside from the fact he can't make an argument, of course.

So cute i haven'e been play MWO for some time and only started playing heavily at least since last week. So are you done with the unprofessional personal attacks now? Can't someone play for fun or do we have to be stat chasers?

Edited by Lupis Volk, 09 April 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Tyroki]

Dire Wolf Ultraviolet is a good example of pay-to-win.
You're outright paying for power that a normal Dire Wolf can't have.
8 Ballistics is insane, plays insane, is insane to play against, and is just outright nasty.

The Pirates Bane is basically an outright upgrade to the Locust 3M. Who cares about AMS if they can't target you worth a damn in the first place.

The Spirit Bear is a huge deal, and the only Kodiak with MASK. That thing is made of savage brutality.

The Scorch is currently disgusting levels of meta.

This game has plenty of Pay-to-Win and Pay-for-Power.

Edited by Tyroki, 09 April 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[Pixel Hunter]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Though, before we leave, we must make an important statement:

Don't balance by Potato



If he can't understand how the game is played, or what makes those builds good, he isn't a good choice in debating balance

Aside from the fact he can't make an argument, of course.

I'm gonna go on the record of being never being in favor of "noob bashing" good ideas are good ideas and so are bad ones...lets keep the ad hominem attacks out of here

[Mcgral18]

Gimpy117, on 09 April 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm gonna go on the record of being never being in favor of "noob bashing" good ideas are good ideas and so are bad ones...lets keep the ad hominem attacks out of here

You can go ahead and tell that to him
I'm not the one who started it, but his terrible manners, attacks, yet lack of reasonable argument don't lend to positive things


Add being a Terribad on top of that, he has no place in a balance discussion

[Khobai]

Quote

Which is entirely besides the point, as there are also 'mechs worse than the Gargoyle and these new options only improve the Gargoyle.

Except an "improved" Gargoyle is still worse than other mechs you can buy with cbills. So its NOT pay2win at all.

Quote

Dire Wolf Ultraviolet is a good example of pay-to-win.
You're outright paying for power that a normal Dire Wolf can't have.

Except its not pay2win because a Dire Wolf Ultraviolet with 8 ballistics is still worse than other mechs you can buy with cbills.

Something is not pay2win if it doesnt give you an advantage at winning. Bringing an 8 ballistic direwolf is not going to give you an advantage at winning, because its still a direwolf, and direwolves are worse than kodiaks. Period.

The only time a hero mech can be considered Pay2Win is if it makes an already tier1 mech even better. Like in the case of the hero hellbringer,

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2017 - 04:52 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

Except even an improved Gargoyle is worse than other options you can buy with cbills

Its not pay2win. At all.

Mr Gargles is the best 80 tonner in the game

[Khobai]

Quote

Mr Gargles is the best 80 tonner in the game

Thats like saying the Locust is the best 20 tonner in the game.

It still doesnt mean the mech is any good.

The hero gargoyle is hardly pay2win because gargoyles are quite frankly not very good assault mechs. Omnimechs that try to fit large engines without taking endosteel tend to be pretty bad when it comes to podspace. And assaults need podspace.

In most cases the Timberwolf is outright better. Or the Marauder IIC if you go 5 tons heavier.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2017 - 04:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

Thats like saying the Locust is the best 20 tonner in the game.

It still doesnt mean the mech is any good.

Difference being the LOLcust is the only 20 tonner in the game (and it IS among the top 3 Lights)
Mr Gargles has competition
There 4 80 tonners?

[Pixel Hunter]

Mcgral18, on 09 April 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

Add being a Terribad on top of that, he has no place in a balance discussion

ad hominem dude...

[Mcgral18]

Gimpy117, on 09 April 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

ad hominem dude...

That's objective
Sub 200 AMS

[Khobai]

Quote

Difference being the LOLcust is the only 20 tonner in the game (and it IS among the top 3 Lights)
Mr Gargles has competition
There 4 80 tonners?

And all four of them are bad.

Youre basically saying the Gargoyle is the least bad out of four bad choices

Zeus, Victor, Awesome are all bad mechs. Gargoyle is a bad mech too.

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2017 - 05:02 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

And all four of them are bad.

Youre basically saying the Gargoyle is the least bad out of four bad choices

Zeus, Victor, Awesome are all bad mechs. Gargoyle is a bad mech too.

He isn't a popular pick, and I don't enjoy playing him, but he is a nasty Assault brawler
One who moves at 87 Kph

[Khobai]

Quote

He isn't a popular pick, and I don't enjoy playing him, but he is a nasty Assault brawler
One who moves at 87 Kph

and has an oversized engine and doesnt have endosteel, which is bad for omnimechs. especially assaults that need to carry more weapons than heavies, otherwise you might as well just play a heavy.

[Lupis Volk]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

Except an "improved" Gargoyle is still worse than other mechs you can buy with cbills. So its NOT pay2win at all.



Except its not pay2win because a Dire Wolf Ultraviolet with 8 ballistics is still worse than other mechs you can buy with cbills.

Something is not pay2win if it doesnt give you an advantage at winning. Bringing an 8 ballistic direwolf is not going to give you an advantage at winning, because its still a direwolf, and direwolves are worse than kodiaks. Period.

The only time a hero mech can be considered Pay2Win is if it makes an already tier1 mech even better. Like in the case of the hero hellbringer,

This is what's doing me in.

Many of the wave 2 mechs are mediocre at best. The hero's are slightly less mediocre but they still suffer from the problems plagued by their chassis in most cases.

Unlike the wave 3 mechs which the first three are the best or one of the best in their weight group and only three of their hero's bring something different.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 09 April 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

its not really pay2win as all of the new Hero Pods arnt strong enough to make those Mechs OverPowered,
however i agree with McGral, we need a way to get OmniHeroPods without buying the Hero, for MC or what not,

[Lupis Volk]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 April 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

its not really pay2win as all of the new Hero Pods arnt strong enough to make those Mechs OverPowered,
however i agree with McGral, we need a way to get OmniHeroPods without buying the Hero, for MC or what not,

I think for MC would be good, but then we'd need to know roughly how much each Omni cost's MC wise.