193 replies to this topic

[Jep Jorgensson]

Rusharn, on 17 April 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

ECM has many support options, counter enemy ECM, preventing coordinated fire against you as you cannot be locked on to so you don't show up on the tactical map, it helps against LRM's and streaks lock on's, not just for you but for the people around you. The RT 2 missile allows for a support brawler option, or *cringe* a support LRMer. If the H adds a fifth missile slot, you're now in the range were the Shadow cat might be able to compete in faction scouting on more equal terms with the Griffins and Centurions, where a limited ammo count is not as much of a limitation. It would create options for the Shadow Cat pilots to work with. More options are better, even if they might be derpy. If the RT 2 missile slot is a derp choice, then there is no harm in giving players the derp choice, but give them the choice especially if they intend on paying for it. We want PGI to get money to pay developers to make our game better and keep it running.

For me, the excuse of the RT 2 missile slot omit pod being a straight up upgrade is a weak reason to remove it. In my opinion, it is what made that variant different from the other shadow cats. It is not pay to win because there are other machines, clan and IS, that would do brawling better. If anything this is pay to derp, and I would like to pay to drep. Everyone in the forums should be ok with players wanting to pay to derp. Come on and ask PGI to give this omni pod back so we can see derpy shadow cat brawlers. Come on you know you want to see it and blow it up.

The Shadow Cat is not a good LRM boat to begin with (and I am saying this as a LRM pilot) so I do not think you need to be too concerned with that. Frankly, with an extra missile hardpoint, maybe then it would not suck as much as a brawler in scouting. Granted I do not put any missiles on mine, but others do and honestly, if a hero is not going to bring anything special to the table, then why should we bother with it? There are plenty of other things we can spend our money on like online dating sites and maybe getting a girlfriend. So to me personally, it does not matter either way. But it does matter to some of my brethren and that is enough.

I believe that all of the new Clan heroes (including the Shadow Cat) that were "modified" only days after they were announced should be returned to their original configurations.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 17 April 2017 - 09:32 AM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 16 April 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

I dunno what you're arguing, but it's already been proven that the 2M RT is an inferior concept no matter how much people try to say otherwise.

Which again brings me to my original question in the other thread. If the 2M RT was inferior, then why the flying **** did the "high and mighty" cry and whine loudly that it was P2W?

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 17 April 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

Which again brings me to my original question in the other thread. If the 2M RT was inferior, then why the flying **** did the "high and mighty" cry and whine loudly that it was P2W?

Accessibility by paywall gating.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 17 April 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Accessibility by paywall gating.

Huh? What does that have to do with something being pay to win?

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 17 April 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Huh? What does that have to do with something being pay to win?

Everything.

[Rusharn]

Deathlike, on 17 April 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Accessibility by paywall gating.

As long as the top meta builds do not require something behind a paywall then it isn't pay to win, it is pay to derp. There are plenty of mechs that are receiving upgrades or new variations this time around, but only the Shadow cat hero has received a direct downgrade. I do not understand the need to specifically target the Shadow Cat hero when the exact same addition of missile hard points was applied to the Huntsman Hero mech, the Paket. What makes it ok to add two missile hardpoints to a fifty ton clan mech hero that is behind a pay wall and not to a forty five ton clan mech hero mech behind a paywall? The paywall doesn't deny the meta shadow cat builds from the free to play players. Now if you are simply against pay walls then fine, your opposition to cash only mechs should be noted on every thread and you have little more to add to this discussion, but if your argument against the restoration of the RT 2 Missile omni pod on the shadow cat hero is because that it is pay to win, then sir your argument does not hold water. More so your opposition would discourage players from purchasing an item that would provide income for the developers of the game.

So the question that needs to be answered is why a feature that would not affect the meta balance of the game was removed from the mech in question, especially if it would hurt the sales of that mech?

I can see no logical reason not to restore the RT 2 missile omni pod as it will be a feature that could encourage sales of this mech. As many in this thread have indicated it would not affect the top tier meta build for this mech, nor improve its standing in the competitive tiers. Money for the developers is a good thing especially if it is pay for derp.

Everyone knows a brawling shadow cat is a bad idea, adding Missile hard points will not change that, but why deny the players willing to pay for that bad idea the opportunity to engage that bad idea? I honestly would be looking forward to the snuggles time videos of him trying to brawl in a shadow cat with srm's or streaks, because you know he is going to do it. If not for the players, do it because you know snuggles will buy it and will have to try it. Do it for the LOLs.

[Deathlike]

Rusharn, on 17 April 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

As long as the top meta builds do not require something behind a paywall then it isn't pay to win, it is pay to derp. There are plenty of mechs that are receiving upgrades or new variations this time around, but only the Shadow cat hero has received a direct downgrade. I do not understand the need to specifically target the Shadow Cat hero when the exact same addition of missile hard points was applied to the Huntsman Hero mech, the Paket. What makes it ok to add two missile hardpoints to a fifty ton clan mech hero that is behind a pay wall and not to a forty five ton clan mech hero mech behind a paywall? The paywall doesn't deny the meta shadow cat builds from the free to play players. Now if you are simply against pay walls then fine, your opposition to cash only mechs should be noted on every thread and you have little more to add to this discussion, but if your argument against the restoration of the RT 2 Missile omni pod on the shadow cat hero is because that it is pay to win, then sir your argument does not hold water. More so your opposition would discourage players from purchasing an item that would provide income for the developers of the game.

You do realize that one of the "beta" tournaments featured a multitude paywalled mechs (Dragon Slayer and Ember primarily) because it was the meta? While things did change (meta-wise), you can't really be arguing for this given that there was literally a period of time where a hero-mech was a metamech. This even included the Oxide when it was requirked a year ago.

So, it does matter, but people like YOU have been arguing otherwise.

Arguing this matter always ends up at a stalemate because in the end, people WILL spend money to win more than they lose in their favorite chassis, whether it is meta or not.

Edit:
People would also pay for the hero mechs anyways even if the equivalent non-C-bill hero (if that was ever to exist) required a wait time. They would simply pay to access them early... no different from the existing systems that PGI has been doing since the beginning.

Quote

So the question that needs to be answered is why a feature that would not affect the meta balance of the game was removed from the mech in question, especially if it would hurt the sales of that mech?

I can see no logical reason not to restore the RT 2 missile omni pod as it will be a feature that could encourage sales of this mech. As many in this thread have indicated it would not affect the top tier meta build for this mech, nor improve its standing in the competitive tiers. Money for the developers is a good thing especially if it is pay for derp.

Everyone knows a brawling shadow cat is a bad idea, adding Missile hard points will not change that, but why deny the players willing to pay for that bad idea the opportunity to engage that bad idea? I honestly would be looking forward to the snuggles time videos of him trying to brawl in a shadow cat with srm's or streaks, because you know he is going to do it. If not for the players, do it because you know snuggles will buy it and will have to try it. Do it for the LOLs.

You're wasting your time considering a bad design and a bad option, when the future/soon to be current option (in some number of months) is a superior one.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 April 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 17 April 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

You're wasting your time considering a bad design and a bad option, when the future/soon to be current option (in some number of months) is a superior one.

And so again I ask, why was the high and mighty anti-P2W crowd crying about something that was considered sh1t anyway? Was it because it was better shi1 than the current endless pile of sh1t?

Edited by Mystere, 17 April 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[Rusharn]

So to be clear Deathlike, your opposition to the restoration of the RT 2 missile omni pod being restored is because of the growing pains endured in a 'beta' product? The RT 2 missile omni pod is not going to shoot the shadow cat to the top of the meta stack. Second presuming my reasoning behind wanting the omni pod is to win is you projecting your issues. I want the omni pod because it will be different, and I can do something different and fun with my shadow cat instead of sniping. I highly doubt, I would win more with 4 missile points and ecm then with three, but trying would be fun, and if they keep the LT 1 missile on the H, then 5 missile points has room for a lot of silliness, and brawl fun. Still would get creamed in scouting, and is such a bad idea in faction, but image a 12 shadow cat drop all painted kool-aid red armed with nothing but srms. Plus the 'superior' option is what? For C-bills! no pay to win.

So you have not made one logical reason on why the Shadow Cat hero should not have the RT 2 missile omni pod returned. It is not game breaking, it is not going to increase the win ratio with the Shadow Cat over the meta, and even you admit it is an inferior option. So why not?

The only 'argument' you have made is that you are salty about what happened in a beta product test.

If anyone from PGI is reading this please don't listen to the salty people, they are not going to buy this product, listen to the people who will buy this product. The RT 2 missile omni pod is what made the hero shadow cat different. Not game breaking, not meta altering, it made it different. Shadow cat pilots want something different and will pay for something different. There is a fan base that loves the shadow cat, it is their favorite machine but they want to do something different with it. If you want this product to sell it needs something so it stands out and the RT 2 missile omni pod did that. It was the first thing I noticed about the mech, it was the first thing the you tubers reviewing the mech noticed about the mech, it is what made them say they would try the mech. If you take that away, no one will want this product because there is nothing different about it, it doesn't standout, it doesn't offer anything to game play. You want a pay off to the work you put into this product return the feature that made it standout, and people will buy it. It is the financially sound thing to do.

Edited by Rusharn, 17 April 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 17 April 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

And so again I ask, why was the high and mighty anti-P2W crowd crying about something that was considered sh1t anyway? Was it because it was better shi1 than the current endless pile of sh1t?

It wasn't offered as an non-MC option. Simple as that.

[Deathlike]

Rusharn, on 17 April 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

So to be clear Deathlike, your opposition to the restoration of the RT 2 missile omni pod being restored is because of the growing pains endured in a 'beta' product? The RT 2 missile omni pod is not going to shoot the shadow cat to the top of the meta stack. Second presuming my reasoning behind wanting the omni pod is to win is you projection your issues. I want the omni pod because it will be different, and I can do something different and fun with my shadow cat instead of sniping. I highly doubt, I would win more with 4 missile points and ecm then with three, but trying would be fun, and if they keep the LT 1 missile on the H, then 5 missile points has room for a lot of silliness, and brawl fun. Still would get creamed in scouting, and is such a bad idea in faction, but image a 12 shadow cat drop all painted kool-aid red armed with nothing but srms. Plus the 'superior' option is what? For C-bills! no pay to win.

This was the same logic used for the Kitfox hero's side torso omnipods. Anyone with a brain knows that it is a significant buff to that chassis.

A "beta" tournament is not an exemption of the reality that if all the options are on the table, people WILL use MC only options if it provides an opportunity. Whether you agree with assessment or not doesn't matter, as money talks ultimately.

Quote

So you have not made one logical reason on why the Shadow Cat hero should not have the RT 2 missile omni pod returned. It is not game breaking, it is not going to increase the win ratio with the Shadow Cat over the meta, and even you admit it is an inferior option. So why not?

If it's not accessible by C-bills, it's a problem even if the result is inferior. It's not going to make the Pretty Baby or other MC only mechs better or more popular, but noone can use the P2W argument ever if a C-bill equivalent option (essentially the same mech w/o the C-bill and bonus) is available. That's the ONLY way to properly disarm the P2W argument.

Quote

The only 'argument' you have made is that you are salty about what happened in a beta product test.

Let's be honest, this game is still its own indefinite beta. It might not be officially that, but it's certainly that (not enough polish).

Quote

If anyone from PGI is reading this please don't listen to the salty people, they are not going to buy this product, listen to the people who will buy this product. The RT 2 missile omni pod is what made the hero shadow cat different. Not game breaking, not meta altering, it made it different. Shadow cat pilots want something different and will pay for something different. There is a fan base that loves the shadow cat, it is their favorite machine but they want to do something different with it. If you want this product to sell it needs something so it stands out and the RT 2 missile omni pod did that. It was the first thing I noticed about the mech, it was the first thing the you tubers reviewing the mech noticed about the mech, it is what made them say they would try the mech. If you take that away, no one will want this product because there is nothing different about it, it doesn't standout, it doesn't offer anything to game play. You want a pay off to the work you put into this product return the feature that made it standout, and people will buy it. It is the financially sound thing to do.

I don't think you understand that it just isn't me that is complaining, but the whales that give money hand over fist that are also complaining. Once the whales complain, unless PGI like losing potential future money, then it should be in PGI's best interest to resolve the matter.

It's easy to ignore the reality when you're not speaking from where the actual control is coming from (the whales specifically).

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 17 April 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Huh? What does that have to do with something being pay to win?

Because at the time there was no C-bill alternative being offered on the table. Now there is, and it's better than the new Hero. Had they left the Hero intact and just offered the H, it would be 5xM with the Hero pods and we'd still have a problem.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

Because at the time there was no C-bill alternative being offered on the table. Now there is, and it's better than the new Hero. Had they left the Hero intact and just offered the H, it would be 5xM with the Hero pods and we'd still have a problem.

i still feel they would have just given +1M to the H LT, that would also solve the problem,
and allow for some wiggle room with hardpoint inflation with IS OmniMechs, which some may need to be viable,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 April 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

i still feel they would have just given +1M to the H LT, that would also solve the problem,
and allow for some wiggle room with hardpoint inflation with IS OmniMechs, which some may need to be viable,

Maybe, but that's not where they chose to go.

Really, though, the SHC is a small, 45 ton 'Mech that can run at 104 kph, bursting up to 128 kph, and can jump extremely well. Now it has all these things and can carry a cSRM24A splat build with 600 rounds. It could also add in a couple of flamers at the expense of a ton of ammo. That's really quite good, both for its tonnage and in general. I really don't think it needs to be able to bomb away with 6xSRMs.

Hell, it doesn't even strictly need more energy hard-points. What it needs is for the UAC/10 to be un-nerfed and for Heavy lasers to release. If PGI does the latter correctly, the Heavy Lasers won't really allow anything new on 'Mechs with lots of guns due to heat, but will certainly benefit those with few.

TL;DR: the SHC has the potential in it to be a BJ-1X with JJs and ECM. It doesn't need as much help as you are making it out to need.

[Andi Nagasia]

personally i still feel the SHC needs back its structure Quirks,
now with the New Tech(depending on how that Tech is Balanced) may help the SHC more,
but personally i think PGI should make a new Non Cannon SHC Variant, with 2 or 3Energy Arms,
that would help more than any amount of missile hardpoints,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 April 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

personally i still feel the SHC needs back its structure Quirks,
now with the New Tech(depending on how that Tech is Balanced) may help the SHC more,
but personally i think PGI should make a new Non Cannon SHC Variant, with 2 or 3Energy Arms,
that would help more than any amount of missile hardpoints,

I don't think I agree with having a Shadowcat that can mount 1x cLPL + 4x cERML while also carrying ECM and JJs and MASC. Why would I ever want to take a BJ-1X with something like that running around on the field? Speed and quirks are the only things that make me consider the BJ-1X over the HBK-IIC and, when I can get most of that in the SHC, the BJ-1X is toast. 41 points at 445 meters or 42 points at 324? Easy choice.

Besides, you can already get that firepower using a UAC/10 and three cERML and you'll soon be able to get it with 2x cHLL + 1x cERML. The idiosyncrasies of the former are their own limiter, but the latter makes me a little uncomfortable. Where's my Lynx?

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 17 April 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

If it's not accessible by C-bills, it's a problem even if the result is inferior. It's not going to make the Pretty Baby or other MC only mechs better or more popular, but noone can use the P2W argument ever if a C-bill equivalent option (essentially the same mech w/o the C-bill and bonus) is available. That's the ONLY way to properly disarm the P2W argument.

So where is the c-bill version of the 5E+1B Urbie? I see no loud P2W calls against it.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 April 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

Because at the time there was no C-bill alternative being offered on the table. Now there is, and it's better than the new Hero.

Damn! There it is again! Where is that stench of an agenda coming from?

<not directed at you, YG>

Edited by Mystere, 17 April 2017 - 05:29 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 April 2017 - 05:24 PM, said:

I don't think I agree with having a Shadowcat that can mount 1x cLPL + 4x cERML while also carrying ECM and JJs and MASC. Why would I ever want to take a BJ-1X with something like that running around on the field? Speed and quirks are the only things that make me consider the BJ-1X over the HBK-IIC and, when I can get most of that in the SHC, the BJ-1X is toast. 41 points at 445 meters or 42 points at 324? Easy choice.

lets not get things confused in alot of ways MASC is a hindrance not a buff for the SHC,
also their are other Mechs that are better than the SHC(See NVA, HMN, and SCR)
-
the BJ-1X has 8Energy, a large engine cap, -5% energy heat(not much but more than the SHC)
lts not forget that with new tech the BJ-1X will get better, ERMLs LFE, thats ganna be a huge boon,
also theirs the little case with a SHC with 4ERML+1LPL+15DHS, each shot is 55% on your heat bar,
you can bearly fire twice in a row, then you have to 12sec till you can fire again and 25sec too fully cool,

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 April 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

lets not get things confused in alot of ways MASC is a hindrance not a buff for the SHC,
also their are other Mechs that are better than the SHC(See NVA, HMN, and SCR)
-
the BJ-1X has 8Energy, a large engine cap, -5% energy heat(not much but more than the SHC)
lts not forget that with new tech the BJ-1X will get better, ERMLs LFE, thats ganna be a huge boon,
also theirs the little case with a SHC with 4ERML+1LPL+15DHS, each shot is 55% on your heat bar,
you can bearly fire twice in a row, then you have to 12sec till you can fire again and 25sec too fully cool,

The BJ-1X has 8x energy, but what does that buy it in application? The ability to shoot 42 points of damage out at 114 kph. The SHC with the build I mentioned would shoot 41 points out at 104 KPH and a burst of 128 kph. The extra range mitigates the extra heat, since you will be firing from safer positions. You've got the option for ECM, also reducing the amount of return fire received. You've got cXL versus pitiful structure quirks on the BJ-1X, and the SHC twists further and turns faster.

With LFE, you have to drop the MedPulse (which had an optimal of 264 meters, mind you) and go with 8x Medium or ER Medium Lasers. So now we've got 40 points of damage at a maximum optimal range of 360 meters...and we can't even fire them all at once because of ghost heat, which for standard Mediums generates 39.60 points of heat. We get 17x DHS on this build and, with current efficiencies, that will give us 55% of the heat bar. With the quirk, it's 37.6 heat or 52%. It will take us 11.3 seconds to return to zero, or 10.7 seconds with the quirk. Now throw in the isERML, which PGI will very likely c*ck up as between 4.5 or 5 heat each and with burn times even longer than the already DPS-starved standard ML, and it doesn't look rosy.

The SHC we've theorized, on the other hand, is generating 41 points of damage for 34 points of heat at an optimal range of 405 meters. You can get 16 DHS in comfortably if you forgo the ECM, and you've still got the jets. You will fill your bar to 48% in one firing and it will take you 10.2 seconds to return to zero. If you drop one DHS for ECM, you fill your bar to 49% and it takes you 10.8 seconds to return to zero. And you still have the jets. And you still have the ability to run faster when needed while being already quick at standard gait. Sure, MASC might be a hindrance...but only because having an XL 300 would be a better use of the weight. But, otherwise, the SHC is the better 'Mech every single time when you throw on more energy weapons. The SHC even has all high mounts, and is better-shaped to spread damage. The BJ-X has nothing on that. Having all that extra mobility should come at some expense, and it simply wouldn't if we throw on more energy weapons.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Yeonne Greene
well a BJ-1X, 290LFE, 6ERML, 1LL, 14DHS, (104.4Kph)(39Damage@400m@37(-5%heat=35Heat)
a SHC with 4ERML, LPL, 16DHS (97.2Kph)(41Damage@400m@34,
-
the BJ also has +6Structure mostly everywhere,
where the SHC because Clan Lasers has more Duration on their lasers,
so its (+2Damage, -1Heat +2DHSs) vs (Structure & less Laser Duration)

not sure how it would go ether way,
but would be interesting to test when we get the new tech,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 April 2017 - 08:38 PM.