193 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

if so nothing changes it becomes another option, 2E 4M ECM and slightly more Fragile,
or 2E 4M no ECM, but more balanced as it can spread ammo and such, its a choice,

i say we should have the Choice, 4UAC20s on a DWF isnt viable,
that doesnt mean we should be Limited to only 3UAC20s,
its a Choice, a Choice i feel we should have,

I don't think it's really "slight" as it becomes more detrimental to yourself.

I mean, you can feel this way and want the option, but I'm telling you from a practical standpoint that your wishful option is a vastly inferior one.

It's like saying the Gargle-Prime's arms are "viable". They are "options", but totally inferior and rarely considered for a serious Gargle build.

[Andi Nagasia]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

I don't think it's really "slight" as it becomes more detrimental to yourself.

I mean, you can feel this way and want the option, but I'm telling you from a practical standpoint that your wishful option is a vastly inferior one.

It's like saying the Gargle-Prime's arms are "viable". They are "options", but totally inferior and rarely considered for a serious Gargle build.

i agree,
but much like the DWF-UV 8AC2s its not necessarily good or viable in allot of ways but the option is still there,
it could offer a different style of play, i know i would run 2E 4M & ECM, it may not be meta but it could be fun,

the IFR made out on its change as 5E + ECM,
even the EXE made out as 7E 4M are now possible,

i dont know, i just feel PGI perhaps should have dont what they did with the IFR 7 HBR,
created a New Non Cannon Variant for the SHC to help the Chassis out,
instead of releasing the SHC-H then balance the Hero to the SHC-H,

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

i agree,
but much like the DWF-UV 8AC2s its not necessarily good or viable in allot of ways but the option is still there,
it could offer a different style of play, i know i would run 2E 4M & ECM, it may not be meta but it could be fun,

the IFR made out on its change as 5E + ECM,
even the EXE made out as 7E 4M are now possible,

i dont know, i just feel PGI perhaps should have dont what they did with the IFR 7 HBR,
created a New Non Cannon Variant for the SHC to help the Chassis out,
instead of releasing the SHC-H then balance the Hero to the SHC-H,

It doesn't really offer a new style of play though, because tonnage is never on your side anyways.

I'd would literally call the "old" 2M RT a "liability".

Edited by Deathlike, 15 April 2017 - 04:52 PM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

The 2M RT would be bad for the mech, because it becomes more gimmicky and fragile easier to neuter.

Can someone please remind me again why people loudly whined and cried P2W about the 2M RT, causing PGI to gut it?

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 15 April 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Can someone please remind me again why people loudly whined and cried P2W about the 2M RT, causing PGI to gut it?

Your complaint here makes no sense given that the hardpoint is actually determined to be worse/worthless than the resulting/newer option.

[Andi Nagasia]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Your complaint here makes no sense given that the hardpoint is actually determined to be worse/worthless than the resulting/newer option.

i wouldnt say its worse or worthless even it it is a 2M RT that doesnt mean you have to use both Missile Points,
actually you could run a 6MG 3SRM6 loadout, with the old Hero Pods, you cant Run that with the New hero pods,

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Your complaint here makes no sense given that the hardpoint is actually determined to be worse/worthless than the resulting/newer option.

Are you telling me that all the bitching and moaning about it being P2W was just a ploy?

Edited by Mystere, 15 April 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

i wouldnt say its worse or worthless even it it is a 2M RT that doesnt mean you have to use both Missile Points,
actually you could run a 6MG 3SRM6 loadout, with the old Hero Pods, you cant Run that with the New hero pods,

It's worse. I've already given the example.

If you're using MGs in the argument... I suggest you stop that because it doesn't help you at all.

Mystere, on 15 April 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Are you telling me that all the bitching and moaning about it being P2W was just a ploy?

It's not a ploy. It's that this example doesn't make your argument better. It makes you look silly instead.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 April 2017 - 08:42 PM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's not a ploy. It's that this example doesn't make your argument better. It makes you look silly instead.

Believe it or not, I was actually asking a question. <shrugs>

[Lehmund]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 April 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

There were two choices, reducing the missiles, or offering the same ones for cbills, they chose poorly, IMO, but oh well.

PGI could have just offered the Hero pods for MC. Problem solved. Everyone is happy .

[Bishop Steiner]

Lehmund, on 15 April 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

PGI could have just offered the Hero pods for MC. Problem solved. Everyone is happy .

still behind a paywall for MC, so no, not really.

And yes, they give away MC in events, at a bare trickle. They have also given away hero mechs, etc, so no, doesn't actually "fix" the issue.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 16 April 2017 - 12:30 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's worse. I've already given the example.

If you're using MGs in the argument... I suggest you stop that because it doesn't help you at all.

its an option, and ive already given a counter argument that you havent countered,
just because you have a 2M RT doesnt mean you have to use both Missiles, so its not a liability,
as much as it may not be a so called Viable option, that doesnt change that you dont have to use all the hardpoints,
just as anyone who has ever built a DWF you sometimes have spare hardpoints, and thats ok,

i used MGs as an argument as an example of an option you would have,
and 6MGs can be used as an argument as you can use them in bulk, they are useful,
with the reworked Crit Chance, 6MGs can eat through 100Stucture in 3-5 seconds,
and with 3SRM6 that could do well at opening up the target,
-
also if you wanted you could replace the 3SRM6+A with SSRM6 and make a full light hunter,

[Wildstreak]

Andi,

You cannot compare Omnis to non-Omnis, that is a bogus argument. Non-Omnis cannot mix hardpoints from different variants else every Awesome would be a pure Energy build, every Zeus would have the 3M RA, etc. Non-Omnis can have their issues as seen in the past but not hardpoint mixing.

If IS Omnis were available and based on what their Heros offered, the same argument WOULD happen as happening here.

You also have to consider the Mech itself. The Scat really doesn't need more Ballistic options, it has plenty thanks to the P variants with more weapons to choose from in upcoming new tech. It currently has 3 Missile maximum and really does not need more, Missile launchers cost tonnage more than Energy. What it could use is a bit more Energy options for something other than the 2ERPPC snipers. Scats would get more benefit from the C variant than an H with 2 Torso Missiles.

I think the issue with the Scat is what does it need, not how P2W the Hero is.

Sjorpha, on 15 April 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

I think we should call these "Spliffin" and "Spladder" and make a cartoon about them.

Also: "Shadowsplat", that can be the villain.

I always called it the ShplatCat.

[Andi Nagasia]

Wildstreak, on 16 April 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Andi,

You cannot compare Omnis to non-Omnis, that is a bogus argument. Non-Omnis cannot mix hardpoints from different variants else every Awesome would be a pure Energy build, every Zeus would have the 3M RA, etc. Non-Omnis can have their issues as seen in the past but not hardpoint mixing.

If IS Omnis were available and based on what their Heros offered, the same argument WOULD happen as happening here.

You also have to consider the Mech itself. The Scat really doesn't need more Ballistic options, it has plenty thanks to the P variants with more weapons to choose from in upcoming new tech. It currently has 3 Missile maximum and really does not need more, Missile launchers cost tonnage more than Energy. What it could use is a bit more Energy options for something other than the 2ERPPC snipers. Scats would get more benefit from the C variant than an H with 2 Torso Missiles.

I think the issue with the Scat is what does it need, not how P2W the Hero is.


I always called it the ShplatCat.

yes OmniMechs are not battleMechs, id say battle Mechs are Far Superior,
OmniMechs can change their hard Points, but they pay the Price for it with not being able to Change Fixed Equipment,
-
BattleMechs Enjoy Full TT MechFactory Ccustomization, such as would take years to do in Lore,
but OmniMechs dont even have their TT Construction Rules, they have far less than they should have,
-
a BL-KNT with Balistic arms, gives it a difrent flavor and benefit other BL-KNTs dont have,

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

then again what about IS Heros,
as the LCT Hero gives ECM,
as the JR7 Hero gives Missiles,
as the CDA Hero gives Missiles,
as the PHX Hero gives Missiles,
as the QKD Hero gives Ballistics,
as the ARC Hero gives ECM,

and with the New IS Heros
as the WLF Hero gives ECM,
as the CRB Hero gives Ballistics,
as the ENF Hero gives ECM,
as the GHR Hero gives Ballistics,
as the BL-KNT Hero gives Ballistics,

should we all Demand C-Bill Versons of these IS heros,
we are talking about Options non MC mechs are Privy too,

as you said BattleMech arnt OmniMechs, but both are Mechs,
i feel it cuts both ways, but we dont see People crying out for this to happen,


but me asking for the Hero to get its 2M RT back,
and +1M be added to the LT of the H(2M LT) as a balancing factor,

yes the SHC needs a non Cannon Variant with more Energy, but thats not what we are discussing here,
what we are discussing is the SHC Hero being barely more than an over glorified Chapion with pretty camo,
-
i think they would have kept the SHC Heros 2M RT, and like the IFR & HBR made a non cannon Variant to fix it,
but instead we got the SHC-H and the hero was then balanced off that lesser SHC Variant, which i disagree with,

also what type of Quirks would be needed to make a Mech with 2 hard Points viable for the 8/8 Set?

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

I just think they needed more options with the LT be it energy or missile hardpoints. but I'd still rather have the fixed structure moved from the right arm(all chassi) to enable the lbx20 to fit in that right arm. because then it'd be a true ballistic arm for all shadowcats. because I'm not a fan of (potential)spl stacking but I don't go against possible energy hard points. it really just needs more energy or missile, but missile points are what was on it in the first place and why this entire thread is here. I just want more viable diversity to shadowcats. not the same ol' boring piss shadowcat meta of 2x LPL, cerppc or the random flamer brawler. any new chassis is a chance to expand upon that diversity and viability it needs. 1+M LT is a low want, RT with 2m would be nice and 1e 1b RA is pretty lackluster because it's not that viable with ballistics to begin with due to tonnage and space. that's all it is, a brawler by asrms(lrms? no n don't think so) and a sniper by two energy weapons. so the shadowcat needs something more.

[Andi Nagasia]

personally i feel the SHC could use a Non Cannon Variant to fill out some of its builds,
perhaps one with a RT ECM, LT 2E, & 2-3E Arms, just something to help it gain alittle more,
6Energy could really help the SHC(i would also support the JR7-Ox gaining back its lost 2Ms)

[Deathlike]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 April 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

its an option, and ive already given a counter argument that you havent countered,
just because you have a 2M RT doesnt mean you have to use both Missiles, so its not a liability,
as much as it may not be a so called Viable option, that doesnt change that you dont have to use all the hardpoints,
just as anyone who has ever built a DWF you sometimes have spare hardpoints, and thats ok,

The whole point of another missile hardpoint is to actually boat it. The value of one missile hardpoint on its own is pretty weak. Vindicator is already proof of this (and others of course) where NARC is "the best you can do with it", while even LRM/SRM/Streak boats would have some use for a 2nd missile hardpoint. It's bad enough seeing people waste that hardpoint for even a Streak 6... just to fill that hardpoint. It's literally just bad mech design.

I've already countered it and then some... you're simply choosing not to believe the basic mechlab science behind it.

Quote

i used MGs as an argument as an example of an option you would have,
and 6MGs can be used as an argument as you can use them in bulk, they are useful,
with the reworked Crit Chance, 6MGs can eat through 100Stucture in 3-5 seconds,
and with 3SRM6 that could do well at opening up the target,
-
also if you wanted you could replace the 3SRM6+A with SSRM6 and make a full light hunter,

6MGs are still not very useful. Even on the Arrow (which probably is the current best option for them, and not any other mech that has 6 ballistic hardpoints) still needs other weapons to be "the can opener" of armor to be effective. I've also explained the massive weakness in the 2M RT.. as you cannot fit ammo there once you use 2-slot missile weaponry there... which means either hiding it in the arm which is fragile enough or on the other torso/side where losing that side (which is easy enough on a Scat) means you're literally out of firepower once that side goes. It's not like you can hide ammo on the CT, Head, or Legs so that even if you decide to shield the mech that you wouldn't lose firepower uptime.

I'm literally telling you actual weaknesses on the Scat dude. I've already told you what it's primarily best at (sniping with lots of cooldown and streaks/occasional brawl) and I'm trying to be real practical on how builds work out (I've mastered 3 Scats, it's not exactly rocket science here). You're too reliant on gimmicks that have major flaws. Getting away with it in the solo queue is all fine and dandy, but it just doesn't hold up to real scrutiny.

Edit: Scat-design simulation for 3MG+3ASRM6 - SHC-P
Ammo placement is up to you, but if you lose the RA, you have no ammo for the SRMs, and hiding 1 ton of ammo in the LT is OK in the event of losing the RA fast. However, the MG ammo is ideally localized because putting it in the RA (due to ammo consumption priorities IIRC) is not even ideal.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 April 2017 - 12:49 PM.

[Rusharn]

The two missile RT would have made the SHC more viable for scouting, more so the current shadow cat is not the old shadow cat as it had all it's quirks stripped from it, so it's already been nerfed once. And what would be so over powered about a 4 missile hard point asymmetrical ECM Shadow cat? Last time I checked the meta build with the Shadow cat is two large pulse or two erppc's. The Shadow cat doesn't even get the same speed boost as all the other mech's with MASC. What is the deal with the complete hate directed at this mech? I don't quake in fear when I see a shadow cat on the field. Yeah their are good pilots that prefer the Shadow cat, but that is the pilot's being good, not that the shadow cat is anything special. A 2 missile RT would provide more options as far a style of play with the shadow cat. With the H-variant we might get the mighty 5 missile shadow cat, again maybe good for scouting, but you're going to be running ammo light.

The Shadow Cat's locked equipment pigeon holes the mech into a specific role, which currently is sniper. The extra missile hard point with ECM could make it a stealthy brawler, but it would still be ammo light, no matter what you do with it. This is not pay to win, at best it is pay for options. The RT 2 missile hard point was the deciding feature on buying the hero so I could have more options for the shadow cat instead of the old sniper build. The removing of that omni pod is indeed a deal breaker because now I have no reason to purchase the hero variant, because it does not provide anything different. Paint job, who cares if you can only put it on one mech? 30% c-bill boost, blah. 1E, 1B arm, doesn't mix up the current builds enough.

I also call bs on the straight up upgrade as the reason for the change to the omni pod. The huntsman hero did the same thing, added 2 missile slots to the mech, but PGI is going to cave on 2 missile slots being added to the Shadow Cat? How does the RT 2 missile slots make the 'super' cat, the ultra invincible, unstoppable death machine?

[Deathlike]

Rusharn, on 16 April 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

The two missile RT would have made the SHC more viable for scouting, more so the current shadow cat is not the old shadow cat as it had all it's quirks stripped from it, so it's already been nerfed once. And what would be so over powered about a 4 missile hard point asymmetrical ECM Shadow cat? Last time I checked the meta build with the Shadow cat is two large pulse or two erppc's. The Shadow cat doesn't even get the same speed boost as all the other mech's with MASC. What is the deal with the complete hate directed at this mech? I don't quake in fear when I see a shadow cat on the field. Yeah their are good pilots that prefer the Shadow cat, but that is the pilot's being good, not that the shadow cat is anything special. A 2 missile RT would provide more options as far a style of play with the shadow cat. With the H-variant we might get the mighty 5 missile shadow cat, again maybe good for scouting, but you're going to be running ammo light.

The Shadow Cat's locked equipment pigeon holes the mech into a specific role, which currently is sniper. The extra missile hard point with ECM could make it a stealthy brawler, but it would still be ammo light, no matter what you do with it. This is not pay to win, at best it is pay for options. The RT 2 missile hard point was the deciding feature on buying the hero so I could have more options for the shadow cat instead of the old sniper build. The removing of that omni pod is indeed a deal breaker because now I have no reason to purchase the hero variant, because it does not provide anything different. Paint job, who cares if you can only put it on one mech? 30% c-bill boost, blah. 1E, 1B arm, doesn't mix up the current builds enough.

I also call bs on the straight up upgrade as the reason for the change to the omni pod. The huntsman hero did the same thing, added 2 missile slots to the mech, but PGI is going to cave on 2 missile slots being added to the Shadow Cat? How does the RT 2 missile slots make the 'super' cat, the ultra invincible, unstoppable death machine?

I dunno what you're arguing, but it's already been proven that the 2M RT is an inferior concept no matter how much people try to say otherwise.

Tonnage is your enemy on the Scat, and unless you're doing some sub-optimal build, it wouldn't really diversify the Scat's usage. The current change is an actual buff despite not being able to use ECM. Hiding the ammo on the Scat is very difficult to do.

[Rusharn]

ECM has many support options, counter enemy ECM, preventing coordinated fire against you as you cannot be locked on to so you don't show up on the tactical map, it helps against LRM's and streaks lock on's, not just for you but for the people around you. The RT 2 missile allows for a support brawler option, or *cringe* a support LRMer. If the H adds a fifth missile slot, you're now in the range were the Shadow cat might be able to compete in faction scouting on more equal terms with the Griffins and Centurions, where a limited ammo count is not as much of a limitation. It would create options for the Shadow Cat pilots to work with. More options are better, even if they might be derpy. If the RT 2 missile slot is a derp choice, then there is no harm in giving players the derp choice, but give them the choice especially if they intend on paying for it. We want PGI to get money to pay developers to make our game better and keep it running.

For me, the excuse of the RT 2 missile slot omit pod being a straight up upgrade is a weak reason to remove it. In my opinion, it is what made that variant different from the other shadow cats. It is not pay to win because there are other machines, clan and IS, that would do brawling better. If anything this is pay to derp, and I would like to pay to drep. Everyone in the forums should be ok with players wanting to pay to derp. Come on and ask PGI to give this omni pod back so we can see derpy shadow cat brawlers. Come on you know you want to see it and blow it up.