193 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Prosperity Park, on 14 April 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

I don't think that Hero Mech releases should be used as balancing measures.

Mech balance for outdated designs should be accomplished outside the Hero sales.

i dont think its really balancing the SHC, but its giving it more options,
personally i can see many more options for a 2M RT, than a 1E+1B RA,
and i cant see getting a Hero for that offers bearly anything new and exiting,

the IS resistance heros all offer something new and Exiting,
the SHC hero? i would be buying it only for the +30%Bonus & RA,
its not unique enough for me to want ot get it to have fun with,

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

i dont think its really balancing the SHC, but its giving it more options,
personally i can see many more options for a 2M RT, than a 1E+1B RA,
and i cant see getting a Hero for that offers bearly anything new and exiting,

the IS resistance heros all offer something new and Exiting,
the SHC hero? i would be buying it only for the +30%Bonus & RA,
its not unique enough for me to want ot get it to have fun with,

Eh, if the IS heroes didn't offer anything new or exciting I wouldn't shed a tear. There's no reason hero mechs should have anything over C-bill variants save the 30% c-bill bonus and a fancy paint job. At least with IS heroes, when they do attempt to make them "new and exciting" they usually end up making them dirt, either through extremely poor hard point placement or lack of hard points and quirks in general. So you end up with one or two nice things about a mech where the rest of it is mediocre or trash. Well, you can't polish a ****. With omnimechs you can take the small, good parts of the garbage hero and make them amazing on the other variants by just moving the omnipod.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

No one was calling power creep because AC20s are in a bad spot (so I doubt that the AC20-6 MPL build will be better than just pure MPL vomit), and the Jenners may suffer from hitbox issues, the Oxide is still the best of them and has been for a long time now sadly.

it still allows something that the other BL-KNTs dont have,
an all Energy Mech can now take a Low heat weapon(Like Gauss) to compliment it,
agreed JR7s all may need some more Love, be it hitbox help or Armor Quirks,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

That pod may have been nerfed but the Shadow Cat came out better for it because an asymmetrical SRM build that gets ECM is just weaker than a symmetrical SRM build.

yes but the same can be said about lots of the pods, the MDD Hero STs, the VPR Hero Arms,
even the SHC Hero RA, offers something that could be considered a little advantage,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

Not being super viable doesn't make it an interesting choice, at least when it comes to increasing depth for this game. THat's like saying the boom-cada offers something unique that was totally worth it (well not quite, but you get the idea).

Before with the old SHC Hero + the H,
Hero + B= 2E 4M ECM,
A + B= 2E 3M ECM,
H + B= 2E 4M,

1ECM or 1Missile, Difference,
which isnt much, and should be fine,
as the VPR Hero gives +2E(Arms)
as the SCR Hero gets +1B(RA)
as the SMN Hero gets +1B(LA)
as the NTG Hero gets +1B(LT)
as the DWF Hero gets +2B(Arms)

then again what about IS Heros,
as the LCT Hero gives ECM,
as the JR7 Hero gives Missiles,
as the CDA Hero gives Missiles,
as the PHX Hero gives Missiles,
as the QKD Hero gives Ballistics,
as the ARC Hero gives ECM,

and with the New IS Heros
as the WLF Hero gives ECM,
as the CRB Hero gives Ballistics,
as the ENF Hero gives ECM,
as the GHR Hero gives Ballistics,
as the BL-KNT Hero gives Ballistics,

so do only OmniMechs Matter? or is it that only Clan Mechs Matter?
if its based on how Viable the Mechs is, then giving the SHC Hero back its 2M RT shouldnt be a Problem,

[Felicitatem Parco]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

i dont think its really balancing the SHC, but its giving it more options,
personally i can see many more options for a 2M RT, than a 1E+1B RA,
and i cant see getting a Hero for that offers bearly anything new and exiting,

the IS resistance heros all offer something new and Exiting,
the SHC hero? i would be buying it only for the +30%Bonus & RA,
its not unique enough for me to want ot get it to have fun with,

Hero Omnimechs are in a sticky situation because, although an IS Hero can be new without being OP because it can also have flaws or drawbacks, a Clan Hero is nothing but an assemblage of Omnipods that can be integrated into other mechs such that Omnipod swapping can mitigate flaws.

Clan Omnis will always have to be not-really-unique because if you make then "unique" then you are simply performing a cash-only product update for the Entire Chassis line.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

it still allows something that the other BL-KNTs dont have,

So? The Hero RA for the SHC technically offers something that the others don't. Is it as useful or unique? Not really, but it isn't the only Omni suffering from this. The ADR/SCR/TBR/WHK all have the same issue (the SCR and TBR only allow for righty/lefty designs using that arm ballistic).

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

an all Energy Mech can now take a Low heat weapon(Like Gauss) to compliment it,

Gauss+laser meta is dead, and this mech won't be the one to do Gauss/PPC very well, so can we stop acting like Gauss fixes everything?

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

if its based on how Viable the Mechs is, then giving the SHC Hero back its 2M RT shouldnt be a Problem,

It will cause a problem now because that means it can mount 5 missiles, so no, think of something else.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 April 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

im just saying that its not abit deal to have +1 or 2hardpoint more than what can be built normally,
other wise all OmniMech heros will just end up like OmniMech Champions, ok but nothing special,

and let me make this Comparason,
the ARC-2R vs a ARC-TEMP, same Hardpoints, but the Hero has ECM,
no one says thats power creap or that its imbalanced at all,

as such the SHC 2M RT could be balanced with Neg Quirks to balance it,
if your saying that All OmniMech Heros need to be completely based only on available Pods,
i think many will just wait for those Variants to come out for C-Bills instead of getting the Hero,
at that point the Hero will just become a Camo and a Bonus, and some of use want more from our Heros,

[Mcgral18]

Jep Jorgensson, on 14 April 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

Great...a Clam Apologist who wants to pay to have an advantage


Please go play COD, leave this franchise

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

im just saying that its not abit deal to have +1 or 2hardpoint more than what can be built normally,

You have that with the current hardpoint layout then so congrats, you don't need to do anything.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

the ARC-2R vs a ARC-TEMP, same Hardpoints, but the Hero has ECM,

Maybe the same hardpoint count, but not the same hardpoints since you can't make use of at least one of them (3 hardpoints in the CT means at least one is never going to be used).

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

You have that with the current hardpoint layout then so congrats, you don't need to do anything.

the 1E+1B RA? ya that may help some builds but i dont see it mattering as much as 2E or 2M,
you could release a DWF with 6Ballistics in each arm, which would be huge, but its not really usable,
not that 16MGs on a slow 100Ton Assault wouldnt be interesting, but i dont see it breaking anything,
(yes i would love and totally Buy a DWF with 6ballistics in each arm it would be amazing)

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

Maybe the same hardpoint count, but not the same hardpoints since you can't make use of at least one of them (3 hardpoints in the CT means at least one is never going to be used).

True, but much like the LCT-PB, ECM is a huge Boon it allows you to Play the Mech Differently,
Personally i would Support PGI making a Non Cannon Variant of the SHC to help Fix its hardpoint problems,
much like what they did with the non Cannon IFR and HBR, coming with the Clan Wave2 Heros,

Edit-
another thing is PGI could also Buff the 1M RT with much Better Quirks to keep it Viable,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 April 2017 - 12:56 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

True, but much like the LCT-PB, ECM is a huge Boon it allows you to Play the Mech Differently

Except the LCT-PB is middle of the road as far as Locusts go, so not really sure what your point is.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

the 1E+1B RA? ya that may help some builds but i dont see it mattering as much as 2E or 2M

So? Several mechs are that way? In fact this is the best case situation for heroes and how they should function, at least Omnis.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

Except the LCT-PB is middle of the road as far as Locusts go, so not really sure what your point is.

even though its not the best LCT, it does offer something that no other LCT has ECM,
and their are 2 more IS mechs joining them being ECM with no C-Bill ECM variant,
ECM counts here just as much as a Weapon HardPoint,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 12:57 PM, said:

So? Several mechs are that way? In fact this is the best case situation for heroes and how they should function, at least Omnis.

i just feel the decision to change the heros RT from 2M to 1M was the wrong Choice,
i feel the SHC is a hard point starved mech, with very little in the way of needed Quirks,
the SHC needs help, and i predict many will stop using the SHC in favor of an ECM IFR,

and more so will leave it with the announcement of the HMN-H(ECM)(3063) & VPR-U(ECM)(3077)
the latter(VPR-U) being possible as it uses already Available or soon to be Available MWO tech,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 April 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

even though its not the best LCT, it does offer something that no other LCT has ECM

So to does the hero 1E/1B arm.......is it as defining of a hardpoint difference, no, not really, but it doesn't nor should it honestly be that way.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

i just feel the decision to change the heros RT from 2M to 1M was the wrong Choice,

You may feel that way, but it was in fact the correct choice to do that.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

i feel the SHC is a hard point starved mech, with very little in the way of needed Quirks,
the SHC needs help, and i predict many will stop using the SHC in favor of an ECM IFR,

People already use the IFR over the SHC, the new c-bill pod may allow the SHC to brawl a bit better than the IFR though (4 ASRM6 on the SHC vs 6 SPL on the IFR). SHC is still the better long-extreme range harasser as well, the ECM on the IFR does nothing to correct that.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 April 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

You may feel that way, but it was in fact the correct choice to do that.

i disagree,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

People already use the IFR over the SHC, the new c-bill pod may allow the SHC to brawl a bit better than the IFR though (4 ASRM6 on the SHC vs 6 SPL on the IFR). SHC is still the better long-extreme range harasser as well, the ECM on the IFR does nothing to correct that.

ever since the Structure Nerfs the SHC isnt very good at brawling, the IFR has +10Structure to both STs & Legs,
the IFR can carry more Like weapons, goes Faster and has more Structure, and now it will have ECM,
1M isnt ganna save the SHC from the IFR in a brawl, i feel the SHC will be obsoleted by the IFR now,

i love the SHC, and personally i would have Rather Had PGI come up with a non Cannon Unique SHC Variant,
perhaps something with a RT ECM, and 2E Arms, to give something new to the SHC, this Hero +H, isnt it,

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

if you ask me the shadowcat never was anything special nor could do anything better than others. what does one have to worry abouta shadowcat when a stormcrow is 10 tons heavier and almost carries twice as much. all anyone does is asrm brawling or a combination of dual LPL or CERPPCS . anything else is just a gimmick for fun and not really that great(P.S I do gimmick shadowcats like uac20, gauss or mguns). so I wanted the idea to enable the lbx20 for the arm(for any ballistic variant) with how pathetic the uac20 is and how bad it jams and how it spreads damage too much.

so I just want the shadowcat to get SOMETHING. not this piddly joke of a 1b 1e arm. the additional missiles sound ok, but nothing really new other than more ability to brawl. because of where the shadowcat is I often take my chewy cookies out and hunt even shadowcats if they don't have streaks. I did vote for the additional missile points, but I still want the lbx20 to be equitable to the shadowcat right arms.

Edited by Cybrid 0x0t2md2w, 14 April 2017 - 01:36 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

ever since the Structure Nerfs the SHC isnt very good at brawling

The SHC was never good at brawling because it didn't have enough sustained damage because it didn't have a good mix of hardpoints, it will be getting a much better spread with the new torso.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

the IFR can carry more Like weapons, goes Faster and has more Structure, and now it will have ECM,
1M isnt ganna save the SHC from the IFR in a brawl, i feel the SHC will be obsoleted by the IFR now,

What does carrying more "Like" weapons have to do with anything. You do realize not all hardpoints are equal right?
ECM doesn't make the IFR any better of a brawler because ECM doesn't help brawlers. The thing that actually helps the IFR is the speed (which is somewhat countered by the MASC on the SHC) and the structure. The thing is, the IFR doesn't have JJs though so on maps like Canyon, the IFR is less usable comparatively. 1M does help the SHC because it allows 33% more firepower than it had previously (and isn't impacted by ghost heat). They do different things in brawl mind you, because 6 SPL and 4 ASRM6 play differently, but it has potential.

Sorry, but if you think ECM on the IFR magically obsoletes the SHC then you clearly don't understand what either are used for. At mid range the IFR has always had the advantage and this changes nothing. Both got better at brawling with their new hardpoints (IFR got an extra E hardpoint, SHC got an extra M hardpoint) and the SHC is still the better long range harasser.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

I do feel they could give it like a 2E Left arm for the Hero. It wouldn't be game breaking, it would be a flat upgrade however. Of course then people would just left-side build their shadow cats to take advantage of this, but, hey, that's fine, easier to cripple in all honesty. The 1B 1E arm is honestly fine as is, throw the 2M RT back on, and throw 2E on the Left Arm and suddenly "oh look, some rather interesting options" but nothing super game breaking, it is more of "pay to optimize" imo and nowhere near pay to win. Sure you can now do like 1HLL, 1HML, 2SPL with ECM or something. Or some weird 4E build, or do some kind of mixed build with 2E in the arm then the other arm be a ballistic arm, or have the right side be energy and missiles.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

The SHC was never good at brawling because it didn't have enough sustained damage because it didn't have a good mix of hardpoints, it will be getting a much better spread with the new torso.

1 more SRM6 may be better at single Volley fighting, but you need to be within 300m,
i cant tell you how easy it is to leg a SHC now, you want to keep distance as much as you can,
theirs no real Brawling, the only place the SHC only excels in a Ranged fight and at that the NVA is better,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

What does carrying more "Like" weapons have to do with anything. You do realize not all hardpoints are equal right?
ECM doesn't make the IFR any better of a brawler because ECM doesn't help brawlers. The thing that actually helps the IFR is the speed (which is somewhat countered by the MASC on the SHC) and the structure. The thing is, the IFR doesn't have JJs though so on maps like Canyon, the IFR is less usable comparatively. 1M does help the SHC because it allows 33% more firepower than it had previously (and isn't impacted by ghost heat). They do different things in brawl mind you, because 6 SPL and 4 ASRM6 play differently, but it has potential.

having many of the same type of weapons 5ERMLs or 5SPLs, will almost always be better than 2ERML +3SRMs,
you just have better control of how your fight, all your weapon behave the same, you have better chance to hit,
for Lasers you have to Stare with SRMs you have to lead, so you are forced to keep readjusting your aim,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Sorry, but if you think ECM on the IFR magically obsoletes the SHC then you clearly don't understand what either are used for. At mid range the IFR has always had the advantage and this changes nothing. Both got better at brawling with their new hardpoints (IFR got an extra E hardpoint, SHC got an extra M hardpoint) and the SHC is still the better long range harasser.

you have already admited that the IFR is better than the SHC, the ECM will only make it better,
i cant say the same thing about the SHC, 1M may help but its still has to sacrifice something to get that,
where as the IFR doesnt have to sacrifice anything to get ECM,

Right now you can get Max 5E on a IFR, with the IFR-P you can have 5E +ECM(Straight Buff)
where as the SHC right now has 2E 3M +ECM, with the H you can get 2E 4M with no ECM(Trade off)
no matter how you Try to justify it the IFR makes out with a Net Gain, where a the SHC doenst,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 April 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[Khobai]

they shouldve just added the 2M

its a damn shadowcat its not like it wouldve been overpowered

they should at least buff MASC to make up for it. MASC still sucks. MASC either needs its duration increased or the reticle shake removed. Either make it a decent way to move faster while not in combat or make it a decent way of gaining an extra boost of speed while in combat.

with a MASC buff the shadowcat wouldnt become entirely obsolete.

Edited by Khobai, 14 April 2017 - 02:17 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

1 more SRM6 may be better at single Volley fighting, but you need to be within 300m,
i cant tell you how easy it is to leg a SHC now, you want to keep distance as much as you can,

It isn't easier to leg a SHC than say a HBK-IIC. Why are you brawling such that you are worried about a lower priority target like the SHC getting legged? Getting legged is much more a concern for targets that are leading the charge and generally slower/larger targets (which the SHC is not). So not really sure what your point is.

The Nova is also not a harasser, it cannot act as a scout like the SHC can on drop 3 of MRBC for example, it is much too slow.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

having many of the same type of weapons 5ERMLs or 5SPLs, will almost always be better than 2ERML +3SRMs,

Sure, but you aren't running 3 SRMs + 2ERML anymore on the SHC with these pods, you are running 4 ASRM6 which is the same payload as the GRF-2N, and just like it, you are running 2 Flamers on top. That's pretty much the best you can do for a missile medium that has that sort of agility (which is nice).

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

you have already admided that the IFR is better than the SHC, the ECM will only make it better,

ECM won't make a drop in the hat for the IFR, the ERML build will take it, but it won't be essential or play that different except for in PUG queue. That said, I admitted the IFR is used more than the SHC now, but the additional M hardpoint has more impact on the SHC than the ECM or extra energy do on the IFR. You seriously overrate ECM.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 April 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Right now you can get Max 5E on a IFR, with the IFR-P you can have 5E +ECM(Straight Buff)
where as the SHC right now has 2E 3M +ECM, with the H you can get 2E 4M with no ECM(Straight Buff)

FTFY, seriously, if you don't understand why the extra missile hardpoint is worth more than the ECM, then you will never understand, so I'm done with this convo.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

It isn't easier to leg a SHC than say a HBK-IIC. Why are you brawling such that you are worried about a lower priority target like the SHC getting legged? Getting legged is much more a concern for targets that are leading the charge and generally slower/larger targets (which the SHC is not). So not really sure what your point is.

as a Medium Scout its easier to find a SHC out alone or mostly alone, a HBK usually has support,
also a HBK isnt as hard Point Starved as a SHC, 1v1 its hard to lose to a SHC,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

The Nova is also not a harasser, it cannot act as a scout like the SHC can on drop 3 of MRBC for example, it is much too slow.

perhaps not, but i would take a VPR over a SHC in drop 3,
faster more manuverable more weapons, and can jump higher,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Sure, but you aren't running 3 SRMs + 2ERML anymore on the SHC with these pods, you are running 4 ASRM6 which is the same payload as the GRF-2N, and just like it, you are running 2 Flamers on top. That's pretty much the best you can do for a missile medium that has that sort of agility (which is nice).

im not saying it wont give you something, im saying i would still rather have the Hero 2M RT,
Heros have always offered something new and interesting, and this Hero doesnt, not really,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

ECM won't make a drop in the hat for the IFR, the ERML build will take it, but it won't be essential or play that different except for in PUG queue. That said, I admitted the IFR is used more than the SHC now, but the additional M hardpoint has more impact on the SHC than the ECM or extra energy do on the IFR. You seriously overrate ECM.

your missing the Point,
if the IFR can hold 5E max now, and after the IFR-P it can hold 5E +ECM, the IFR Chassis is getting Buffed,
if the SHC can hold 2E +3M +ECM now, and after the SHC-P it can hold 2E +4M, the its a Trade,
the fact is the IFR is getting a Net Buff, the SHC isnt it has to lost something to gain +1M,

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

FTFY, seriously, if you don't understand why the extra missile hardpoint is worth more than the ECM, then you will never understand, so I'm done with this convo.

some may feel 1M is better than ECM, some may feel ECM is better than 1M,
i feel that ECM is more Important than 1M, and im sure im not alone in how i feel,
-
im willing to go half way with you,
id say we both are right in a way because a Long Range SHC needs ECM,
where as if your going to be getting in close ECM matters less, but it still Matters,