193 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 April 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Skins, unique geometry, unique cockpits, c-bill boosts, etc

If Overwatch can survive on non-gameplay related microtransactions, then why is Mechwarrior so different? Hell, if I could apply some hero skins across all my mechs, that would be huge (cuz a lot of the hero and collector edition skins are simply more interesting than the generic crap). Sorry, but the idea that MWO NEEDS to sell items that impact gameplay to make money needs to die because it isn't founded on anything but the premise that this game's population is smaller which has nothing to do with poor monetization scheme MWO has which is the real issue.

Tragically, here's the rub: we do not have that ideal monetization scheme. Everybody here knows that. As such, this smells like nothing more than an "excuse".

[Andi Nagasia]

my beef is that SHC is still very hard point starved,
the other changes where ok, but with the IFR getting ECM the SHC is even less useful,
as the IFR can now do the SHCs job as it will have the only thing it was really missing,

[Snowbluff]

Quote

No, the asym build is worse because it is easier to neuter and has worse convergence than it would with torso mounted Gauss.

That's still a step up from before when it was run asym.

That's a fair point, but you also have to remember gauss has half the HP and will always explode. Having a dead side is nice (but not great for EBJ, granted)

The point stands is that cbill variants of other mechs are probably better for a variety of reasons.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Snowbluff, on 13 April 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Having a dead side is nice (but not great for EBJ, granted)

These days, no, it really isn't.

There is a reason things like the HBK-IIC-A run symmetrical despite being capable of running full asym.

Snowbluff, on 13 April 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

but you also have to remember gauss has half the HP and will always explode.

So? That doesn't stop Dual Gauss from being stupidly powerful for long range builds. Dual Gauss is the reason the Night Gyr is so strong (well one of the reasons).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 April 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[Mystere]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 April 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

my beef is that SHC is still very hard point starved,
the other changes where ok, but with the IFR getting ECM the SHC is even less useful,
as the IFR can now do the SHCs job as it will have the only thing it was really missing,

Well, the SHC can at least fly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 13 April 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

Well, the SHC can at least fly.

It also has more free tonnage, the Ferret will still be only boating lasers because it doesn't have adequate tonnage to do anything else. Really the builds for the IFR change very little, the 5 cSPL build gets one extra cSPL (because ECM isn't worth it for a brawler especially at the cost of some extra firepower) and the 5 ERML build get's to run ECM (using the RT 1E for that 5th ERML).

[razenWing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 April 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Skins, unique geometry, unique cockpits, c-bill boosts, etc

If Overwatch can survive on non-gameplay related microtransactions, then why is Mechwarrior so different? Hell, if I could apply some hero skins across all my mechs, that would be huge (cuz a lot of the hero and collector edition skins are simply more interesting than the generic crap). Sorry, but the idea that MWO NEEDS to sell items that impact gameplay to make money needs to die because it isn't founded on anything but the premise that this game's population is smaller which has nothing to do with poor monetization scheme MWO has which is the real issue.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Did you just compared Overwatch to MWO?

How many people spend money on basic pack... maybe get the Hero... and stop at being a collector? Like, MOST of them? You know how I know? Cause there aren't gajillion Loyalty Summoner/Stalker (both of which can be argued as p2w by your narrow definition) running around after they were released. Give it up already, nobody buys mechs in this game because of some pretty colors. People buy stuff in this game because you wouldn't otherwise get them through... FREE.

Also, how much are Blizzard charging for Overwatch skins? I don't know, but I doubt 75 gold is the same as 15 real dollars.

So I ask the same question to all those people that propose that the only money paying option should be skins... how many of those collector special color champion mechs do you guys possess? How much dollars did you contribute for your moral principle? I await your answer.

--------------

Also El Bandito (this is going back 2 pages), I don't know if you are this... naive... or have you just not played any multiplayer games. CoD sell guns better than what you can earn in game all the time. I played Crysis, so I know they sell stuff like hunter bows and miniguns. But nah, I guess those are not "arena shooter." Those are obviously not p2w, and obviously those companies are much more moral than PGI.

(And for those companies, I can even argue that their super money guns aren't p2w, cause wielding them don't give you magical armor or super 1-ko bullets. So... suck it. Play more games.)

---------------

PS forgot to add... how many players Overwatch got vs how many players PGI have currently? Blizzard can literally sell something for 1 dollars and if 10% of their players buy them, they will make millions and Acitvision stock price will go up. Let's see how many "unique skins" PGI can possibly sell to you guys. Let's just say they sell all unique skin for a super affordable attractive price of the same dollar... they make 3000 dollars if EVERYONE buy the skin. Yup, money maker right there.

But realistically, I hope you have your wallet wide open for those skins that's costing 15 dollars. O but you won't buy any? Cause you are not stupid? Yup, that's what I thought.

(Also, pretty sure Overwatch doesn't charge you extra for additional colors of the purchased skins)

Edited by razenWing, 13 April 2017 - 11:18 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

How many people spend money on basic pack... maybe get the Hero... and stop at being a collector?

That's because the collector pattern only comes on a single mech rather than being a pattern you can apply across all.....that and they used to sell these as part of the pack originally (so there is a bit of resistance there in charging more for something).

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Give it up already, nobody buys mechs in this game because of some pretty colors.

So no one buys mechs simply because they look cool, ever??? Yeah, sorry, but that we know is bogus. Don't get me wrong, power sells too, but looks do sell as well.

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

PS forgot to add... how many players Overwatch got vs how many players PGI have currently?

Glad you know how to read:

Quote

Sorry, but the idea that MWO NEEDS to sell items that impact gameplay to make money needs to die because it isn't founded on anything but the premise that this game's population is smaller which has nothing to do with poor monetization scheme MWO has which is the real issue.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 April 2017 - 11:21 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 April 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

So no one buys mechs simply because they look cool, ever??? Yeah, sorry, but that we know is bogus. Don't get me wrong, power sells too, but looks do sell as well.

Looks do sell, but I always feel like I get targeted more the fancier my paint job is. *hides pink and white VPR and SHC*

I get killed so often in the SHC, I won't be able to stand the extra attention.

IDK, can we run 3 HML 1 UAC10 and ECM on the new hero? Is that sounding anywhere close to viable?

Edited by Snowbluff, 13 April 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Snowbluff, on 13 April 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

IDK, can we run 3 HML 1 UAC10 and ECM on the new hero? Is that sounding anywhere close to viable?

You could run it, but I don't really think it is worth it (you put a lot of firepower in one side, specifically one arm). If they had given us a 1B/1E RT instead of RA that would've been a slightly different story.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 April 2017 - 11:43 AM.

[Agent1190]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

The debates around here are less about pay to win, but more about pay to perform better--as exemplified so clearly by the Hellbringer Hero, with that 1 more energy RT. And that is wrong. The Hero should never be straight upgrade over C-Bill one.

And since we are talking about omnimechs, with their swappable min-max omnipods, this Agent guy should not have even brought up IS Heros in the first place, since those are battlemechs with fixed hardpoints.

This "Agent Guy" responded to you post about original hero mechs, which were ALL inner sphere. Those original heros offered capabilities the CBill variants did not offer. No one said meta, no one said superior. But they were upgrades. You could do different builds with the hero than you could with CBill variants. You could put in bigger engines. That qualifies as an upgrade.

You can't seriously believe 1 energy hardpoint would make the Hellbringer that much better. I can already dead side the right arm and get 7 energy hard points. One more laser isn't going to be that much change when you take into account weapon heat and clan ghost heat.

Edited by Agent1190, 13 April 2017 - 12:53 PM.

[R Valentine]

Agent1190, on 13 April 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

This "Agent Guy" responded to you post about original hero mechs, which were ALL inner sphere. Those original heros offered capabilities the CBill variants did not offer. No one said meta, no one said superior. But they were upgrades. You could do different builds with the hero than you could with CBill variants. You could put in bigger engines. That qualifies as an upgrade.

There was a time when hero battlemechs were outright superior to their C-bill siblings and it was terrible. Omnimechs would be the same, only worse.

[razenWing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 April 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

That's because the collector pattern only comes on a single mech rather than being a pattern you can apply across all.....that and they used to sell these as part of the pack originally (so there is a bit of resistance there in charging more for something).


So no one buys mechs simply because they look cool, ever??? Yeah, sorry, but that we know is bogus. Don't get me wrong, power sells too, but looks do sell as well.


Glad you know how to read:

You got me on the generalization statement, good for you! Want a cookie?

As for point number 1... what are you smoking? You can't apply Hero pattern across all variants, how that is any different than if Hero was all about the pattern? And besides, collector pack give you MORE STUFF as incentives and still don't sell. What does that tell you? Come on, man. Good at video game, fail at basic logic.

And for point number 3, don't know what you are so cocky about, you either agree with me that your statement about how MWO can do business like Overwatch is just moronic, or you disagree in which case I am somehow capable of reading your moronic statement? Again, what are you smoking? Must be pretty strong stuff, maybe that how you guys twitch shoot in games.

MWO, a game for druggies...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

As for point number 1... what are you smoking? You can't apply Hero pattern across all variants, how that is any different than if Hero was all about the pattern?

You missed my point, what if you COULD apply the hero pattern across more than just the "hero" variant?

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

And for point number 3, don't know what you are so cocky about, you either agree with me that your statement about how MWO can do business like Overwatch is just moronic, or you disagree in which case I am somehow capable of reading your moronic statement?

I disagree obviously because the population size shouldn't impact what they should and shouldn't monetize, just the cost.

The rest is just funny, can't really make a cogent argument so you have to insult people, haven't seen that before in the brown sea......

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 April 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[razenWing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 April 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

You missed my point, what if you COULD apply the hero pattern across more than just the "hero" variant?


I disagree obviously because the population size shouldn't impact what they should and shouldn't monetize, just the cost.

The rest is just funny, can't really make a cogent argument so you have to insult people, haven't seen that before in the brown sea......

Actually, I think I applauded you for your superior playing, but if you have to nitpick...

Also... no and no. You don't sell games the same way based on your population size. I don't know why you would think otherwise. Can McDonald sell food with the same strategies as say... Ruth Chris? Obviously, that's not entirely fair, I just can't think of a niche burger place with far fewer audience.

My point is... McDonald can offer "generalized" (much like Blizzard's games of late) content that's neither exciting and doesn't offend anyone. A niche burger place need to offer higher end experience that can sell to high end customers, though the micro carrots might not appeal to everyone. (much like your PGI offering your "p2w" mechs, which the same question I asked across 2-3 threads... how many of these "moralized" Clan Wave 2 mechs have you bought?)

[Alexander of Macedon]

Rampage, on 13 April 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

Ummm, according to the P2W advocates, P2W has nothing to do with a hero being meta. All that matters is that the hero offers unique hardpoints or geometry that MIGHT make it superior to the free variants of the same chassis in SOME scenarios.

It can be argued that a precedent has now been established that any hero Mech past, present or future cannot offer unique attributes that could make it superior to comparable free Mechs. Therefore, Mechs such as the Pirates Bane, Black Widow, Jester, Ilya, Oxide, Firebrand, et al should have free variants available.

When you open a can of worms.......................

Except that most of the ones you named are flatly inferior to CB variants. The Ilya I'll grant, I still run mine with the old chainsaw build and it still reliably stomps everything into the ground. But the Misery? The PB? They are downgrades which trade good quirks and hardpoints for unique hardpoints. The PB loses 33% firepower for ECM. The Misery is flatly inferior to several other Stalkers for the sake of a single ballistic hardpoint in a poor location-it hasn't been a good pick for a looooong time.

Now, I would have preferred a CB variant released later to match the number of M hardpoints on the old plan for the hero Shadow Cat. Or the ability to buy hero omnipods (but not the whole 'mech) for heavily inflated CB prices. This sucks. But it's still better than allowing the game to be taken over by wallet warriors.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

A niche burger place need to offer higher end experience that can sell to high end customers, though the micro carrots might not appeal to everyone.

Except you piss off low end customers, this isn't like a restaurant where you can decide you don't need one sort of customer. You need both, and P2W is a good way to ensure you don't get any freemium players or even whales who don't want to throw around boat loads of money on a new game, a lot of whales (like myself) will test the waters before hand. Which is why it is frowned on by any sort of serious game dev every time it comes up.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 April 2017 - 02:14 PM.

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

I love the shadowcat as a mech, but I still plan to not buy the hero. how ever I will go over what I have to say first.

the shadow cat has had possibilities but it sucks at tonnage, unlike the timby or dire you don't have separate variants with and without fixed masc/ecm/jumpjets. this strangles the mech on tonnage and viability for those hardpoints. the hero gives nothing new that a 1 ballistic 1 energy arm could grant for it's tonnage. the 2 missile right torso did for any brawlers as would another missile left torso later on, not that any would skimp out of the ecm anyway. if you want that ballistic arm to be special an energy or a missile hard point wont do anything there.

now here's what I think in my opinion should be done: take one or even better two fixed structure off the right arm of all shadowcat variants and put it in the left arm. this will allow the lbx20 to fit and a 1 slot energy weapon in the hero. this would be far more interesting over all and grant something the shadowcat has never had. I also thinkl there shoudl ahve been an energy hard point in the left torso for the hero, not that any would skimp out of the ecm.

anything else would be the same thing on trying to free fixed structure and get the precious few tons of tonnage for the shadowcat to use across variants. the same can be said for other omnis versus clan battlemechs and fixed components and structure. I personally think structure should not be fixed, but that you can't change endo and ferro with standard.

as a shadowcat lover and locust crazy, I will not buy this "sadcat" hero. it wasn't pay to win before and it's even sadder now. and it still doesn't grant anything worth anything. more mechs should have different structure/armor of endo, ferro, fixed structure if kept and jump jets with each variant. or else it adds nothing but more of the overbalanced lousy same mech with hardly a difference.

[razenWing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 April 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

Except you piss off low end customers, this isn't like a restaurant where you can decide you don't need one sort of customer. You need both, and P2W is a good way to ensure you don't get any freemium players or even whales who don't want to throw around boat loads of money on a new game, a lot of whales (like myself) will test the waters before hand. Which is why it is frowned on by any sort of serious game dev every time it comes up.

So pissed off already paying off customers? So you guys are more important compare to us, basically what you are saying.

And whales are called whales for a reason, you are telling me that whales won't buy Hero mechs because they feel it's p2w when the whole point of p2w (which I still disagree that clan Wave 2 is in any ways P2w, but just for the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you) is for those whales to buy mechs that's better than free version????????

Also, if freemium players is going to be pissed off, they would be pissed off 2 years ago. How long have you've been playing? So obviously, at least you stuck around. I would be less incline to be "derogatory" toward you guys if you guys just admit your own hypocrisy instead of acting on a smug moral high-ground like you did something great for the community.

Edited by razenWing, 13 April 2017 - 02:25 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

So pissed off already paying off customers? So you guys are more important compare to us, basically what you are saying.

What do you mean, you think whales don't care about this either? I am a whale, I've easily spent over $1000 on this game but that doesn't mean I want a monetization scheme that antognizes freemium players who we need to have a good population because that is what the end goal is always about, a good population.

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

And whales are called whales for a reason, you are telling me that whales won't buy Hero mechs because they feel it's p2w when the whole point of p2w (which I still disagree that clan Wave 2 is in any ways P2w, but just for the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you) is for those whales to buy mechs that's better than free version????????

They will if it is necessary to compete, but that doesn't mean they won't complain about having to do it either. If the Dragon Slayer was suddenly the ultimate assault again and I had to buy it again for some reason, doesn't mean I would be happy about doing it.

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

How long have you've been playing? So obviously, at least you stuck around.

I'm not a free player anymore, that ship sailed 2 years ago, but that doesn't mean I've been happy with the scheme PGI has and I'm more masochistic than most freemium players are because I have a love for Mechwarrior that the general gaming community doesn't have.

razenWing, on 13 April 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I would be less incline to be "derogatory" toward you guys if you guys just admit your own hypocrisy instead of acting on a smug moral high-ground like you did something great for the community.

Since I've made it clear I am a whale, feel free to put your foot in your mouth now.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 April 2017 - 02:38 PM.