13 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

Say in the distance future... PGI finally figured out that 12v12 is not the only option anymore.

While the system will still que 12 v 12, but the system might split into 4v4 and 8v8, or 2 6v6s, while maintaining the possibility of 12v12.

That's the hypothetical.

The question:

Does it feel worse to get rolled in a 12v12 game or a 4v4 game? And is there a inverse relationship between group size and getting rolled versus mental satisfaction level?

I think there is...

My hypothesis:

As the group size shrunk, your inherent understanding of the importance of "self" increase dramatically. Thus, when you are getting rolled, you don't get mad because "someone else" failed you, but that you failed yourself. And a lot of us are far more likely to forgive ourselves than other people.

My Evidence:

I heard stories from the 8v8 days where people weren't as mad about 8-0 games. Also, as a inverse support evidence, certain well know individuals around the forum will post "oh, I carry too hard" threads to show their discontent to other pilots while glorifying self contribution.

Food for Thought:

See, in Soccer, 1-0 games are quite often. If the score is 1-0 or 2-0, despite being a shutout, a lot of people will still praise the losing team for a valiant effort. (Of course, a soccer nut might be like, "no, they were outplayed from start to finish, their offense suck so that they pack defense"... but to a general audience, that won't be the case) Now imagine, Philadelphia 76ers vs Cleveland Cavaliars, and the score was 80-0. Some players, coaches, and GMs are probably going to be fired than having people pat them on the back and say, "Well, Joey Embiid... well fought game."

Now, if in MWO, there is an introduction of the said 8v8, 6v6, and 4v4 mode. I feel more people will be ok with losing in 4v4 than 6v6 than 8v8 and finally, than 12v12. This could be used as a way to reduce player frustration and increase participation. I mean, what is the usual response to being rolled? I try again, right? But say.. 2 or 3 in a roll... then what happened? People will be like, f- this, I'm done for the night, and going to post my screenshot on the forum of me carrying too hard.

Thoughts and comments? Should PGI invest in small group ques, not because they are the most awesome idea with splice map split zone fighting, but that they reduce player frustration? Do you think a 0-4 roll will hurt just as much as a 0-12 roll? Let me know!

[RAM]

razenWing, on 15 April 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

My Evidence:
I heard stories from the 8v8 days where people weren't as mad about 8-0 games. Also, as a inverse support evidence, certain well know individuals around the forum will post "oh, I carry too hard" threads to show their discontent to other pilots while glorifying self contribution.

Thoughts and comments? Should PGI invest in small group ques, not because they are the most awesome idea with splice map split zone fighting, but that they reduce player frustration? Do you think a 0-4 roll will hurt just as much as a 0-12 roll? Let me know!

Your evidence is anecdotal at best and the forum archives show misplaced. Further your analysis seems entirely focused on attempting to prove your hypothesis.

PGI should not do this for any reason since it has nothing to do with group/match size. It is a perception problem and until people understand the mechanics and math behind no respawn matches, nothing short of 1v1 will prevent 'rolls', 'stomps' etc


RAM
ELH

[Revis Volek]

it hurts worse and less at the same time...

You can get your *** handed to you very quickly with less mechs on the field thats for sure. 8v8 brawls are over in minutes.



But the bright side is if you treat it like any other sport, use that short term memory(or lack of) and get back on the horse you have more chances of more matches and therefore a chance to win quicker and forget that stomp.



But i think its 6 of one half a dozen of the other, 12v12 is only better for the servers.

[razenWing]

RAM, on 15 April 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Your evidence is anecdotal at best and the forum archives show misplaced. Further your analysis seems entirely focused on attempting to prove your hypothesis.

PGI should not do this for any reason since it has nothing to do with group/match size. It is a perception problem and until people understand the mechanics and math behind no respawn matches, nothing short of 1v1 will prevent 'rolls', 'stomps' etc

RAM
ELH

You are answering like you caught me on some academic flaws. I don't have a methodology, data, analysis, or conclusion. So of course all "evidence" (or would "premise" be better?) are anecdotal.

Second of all, I don't have an "analysis." Cause all of the things that I just mentioned? I don't have. So, if anything, this is more of a survey and discussion.

(even the title says psych "REVIEW" not psych "ANALYSIS")

Edited by razenWing, 15 April 2017 - 08:17 PM.

[El Bandito]

8v8 is just simply better for the players, at least in Solo-Q. https://mwomercs.com...ormance-issues/

Edited by El Bandito, 15 April 2017 - 08:19 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

No, smaller groups just make the finger-pointing closer to universal rather than targeting obvious taters. I played CS for years back in the day. Playing with 4v4 or 5v5 makes the flaming more intense. The only thing worse than a bad match between small teams with flaming is when every single match is played with the same people.

[Deathlike]

Getting rolled is a symptom of bad teamplay more often than not, particularly if there are more mechs/players on the battlefield.

It gets harder, probably on some exponential level (at least some sort of curve) where having +1 player on the team requires more teamwork and not doing your part becomes visible for everyone to see as more players impact the game.

If you're player #1 to die in a 1v99 FFA... you could blame it on luck, but chances are you probably screwed up and are refusing to admit it.

"Fault" is directly proportional to how much "effective" damage (aka not spreading damage - focused damage that gets the target killed ASAP) you did relative to the team. It's actually worse if you're in denial, relative to your contribution.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 April 2017 - 08:40 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

For what i seen its the number of rolls in a row is dependent on "when" people will quit. Its just a matter of time.
If i can win kind of often people will play all night. If i get on a team and we hit some tier1 comp team 3ish times in a row people will start quitting.


As for 12man teams for what i see almost everyone has stopped playing these because of the weight limits. Its very rare we run 12 mans anymore.

[Deathlike]

Monkey Lover, on 15 April 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

For what i seen its the number of rolls in a row is dependent on "when" people will quit. Its just a matter of time.
If i can win kind of often people will play all night. If i get on a team and we hit some tier1 comp team 3ish times in a row people will start quitting.


As for 12man teams for what i see almost everyone has stopped playing these because of the weight limits. Its very rare we run 12 mans anymore.

To run an effective 12-man, people actually have to be coordinated.

If you run with enough casuals on your team, you're bound to not get the teamwork needed to succeed.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 April 2017 - 08:45 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Deathlike, on 15 April 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

To run an effective 12-man, people actually have to be coordinated.

If you run with enough casuals on your team, you're bound to not get the teamwork needed to succeed.

Its more than coordination you need to be able to put the hits on target and not spread damage. Each player needs to make up for a light mech worth of tonnage. I have never really ran into anyone who didn't coordinate in our matches.

So you are correct, if you play with casual players its not going to work and this is why we dont see many 12 mans playing anymore.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 15 April 2017 - 09:03 PM.

[razenWing]

Let's simplify this problem even more... and go to the extreme.

As someone pointed out already, in a FFA, you can't blame anyone but yourself.

So we assume the same for 1v1... probably less so with 2v2, and even less so than 3v3.

Also, an important question to ask which not a lot of people have answered so far...

Are you more ok with getting rolled with decreasing numbers than to get rolled in a large 12v12 game? I think it's an entirely different feeling. Like queing up for scouting for getting 0-4ed... honestly, I don't see people get upset as much. It's like, we can power through and just move on... even if the game is 0-4 for like 4-5 games in a roll. It won't be forever, but it will be a lot longer than getting 0-12 for just 1 or 2 in a roll.

And this is regardless of playing solo or team. Though in team, it's more noticeable because you can actually observe the after-effect... since you know when someone ragequit. In solo, it's harder to observe since you have no one to track if said person came from a losing streak, and/or ragequit right after.

However, my hypothesis remain the same that people have higher tolerance to getting roller in a smaller team game than large game. And it's not just to finger pointing. It's also more rational for people to sit down and consider what they did wrong.

Did you bring SRMs?
Did you coordinate with teammates?
Did you miss a leg shot?

It feels like, there is more self reflection going on, and far less "man my team suck, that's why I lose... and I'm going to ragequit as a result."

But again, I could be wrong. I am only speaking on behalf of casual.

(Though the other day, I was watching twitch stream of a MRBC A team getting rolled repeatedly by this other MRBC A team in group que, which I thought they would not disband as quickly had they at least remain competitive in those games... though to be fair, they stuck around a lot longer because in between the meetings, they were rolling other people... so that acts as a sort of buffer)

[Monkey Lover]

A larger group is more likely to quit because you have more people in it. Once a single person quits i have seen others too so again this i more likely to happen in a big group. In a small 4v4 scouting group before a lot of the clan balancing people would quit often.

It has always been more about how many rolls in a row than the group size.

Now does a small group get roll less often? Im not sure about this.

[JediPanther]

I think 8vs8 is good. It focuses more on team effort than 12vs12. 8vs8 you really start to hurt your odds being down one or two mechs. In 12vs12 down to mechs is nothing. Smaller teams also have the advantage of being a team since in the old cb days when you droped regularly with players enough you'd know what they were good and bad at so you could coordinate better.

[EgoSlayer]

We have 4v4 right now in CW scouting. If anything the cries about balance or people not pulling their weight are worse, not better, because there is less margin for skill or equipment deficits than in 12v12.