69 replies to this topic

[Paul Rice]

In another post, someone tangentially stated that they wanted the Annihilator in the game, but it would have to be rare. I was wondering what people thought of rarity being imposed on the players.

Personally, I'm all for it. I'd like to go "ooooo" when I see a mech that's particularly rare, like a Shogun or a Mackie or something. I would get a kick out of trying to procure rare mechs - maybe seeing one for sale by chance and having to decide whether to grab it up or miss my chance forever, you know?

If this was done by house, it would do a lot to create canon-looking house armies - DCMS forces would have tons of Panthers and Jenners and the like, Wolf's Dragoons would be full of weird awkward mechs that confuse everyone (flea, annilator), etc.

I don't know if the geography/local availability factor would be canon or not - it might be cool for mercs to have a different selection based on who they're working for and where they are, but I'm not sure how shipping a mech works in Battletech; I can't imagine it being that awful to buy a mech off of Amazon.com 3049 and have it shipped to the Free Worlds League.

Of course, I'm sure some people will want to have none of this, because if you're not a canon junkie, it could get pretty annoying. Thoughts?


Update: if you're just tuning in, here's the gist of the discourse so far:
-salvage is always a thing, making everything possible. We agree there.
-an economic thing based on allegiance would control how canon units look without fully cutting off people's options (houses get discounts on homemade mechs, jacked up prices for other factions, independents are somewhere in between). Whether this makes sense is still debated
-super rare prize mechs would be fun, if inefficient to design

Edited by Paul Rice, 14 December 2011 - 07:17 PM.

[Gunman5000]

Going on the assumption that by geography you meant local availability, ie if I'm in the Free Worlds League its going to be much harder (rarer) to acquire a strictly Draconis Combine 'mech, I voted for the first three.

Since the Devs have said they want to try and use as much Canon for backstory and stuff as possible I would like to see certain 'mechs that are clearly stated as being "rare" at this point in time to be so in game. Also limiting by Faction just makes sense in game terms in my opinion.

[Hayden]

I think that all 'mechs should be available to everyone, but if you _do_ want to create an artificial scarcity jack up the price. You'll be paying for prestiege/aesthetics rather than any additional functionality.

[Mason Grimm]

While I agree with you in principle I do think that for gaming purposes this would not be wise.

This would cause several issues;

1) Players would be flocking to house factions so that they could play the mechs that they love even if they don't agree or identify with the House/Faction ideology. (roleplaying factor)

2) Playeers who opted NOT to play for a specific mech faction would not (initially) have access to it (compromise or give up)

3) It could push the player base more towards mecenary companies because they tend to have a greater range of machines available due to their being able to travel between houses, thus leaving the house factions bereft of players; messing with the ingame faction mechanics.

UPDATE

The gentleman below has a valid point in terms of the "real world" but again, no matter how much we wish, MWO is not the real world. You can bet your behind that if Russia could get its hands on an Abrams they would reverse engineer it to the best of their ability and very quickly start fielding their own version of it. The same goes for the major houses. Part of the spread of technology happens through actual combat. One house loses a lance of mechs, the other salvage what they can, reassemble, study and adapt.

Edited by Mason Grimm, 14 December 2011 - 06:04 AM.

[Paladin1]

I realize that this is a game, but the quickest way to make this game suck is to let everyone have access to all the different `Mech designs. That's not how it works in canon and that's not how things work in real life. You're not going to see a Russian force fielding an M1A2 Abrams and you shouldn't see a Marik force fielding a full lance of PNT-9R Panthers. If you do, there's something wrong.

[Paladin1]

Mason Grimm, on 14 December 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

While I agree with you in principle I do think that for gaming purposes this would not be wise.

This would cause several issues;

1) Players would be flocking to house factions so that they could play the mechs that they love even if they don't agree or identify with the House/Faction ideology. (roleplaying factor)

2) Playeers who opted NOT to play for a specific mech faction would not (initially) have access to it (compromise or give up)

3) It could push the player base more towards mecenary companies because they tend to have a greater range of machines available due to their being able to travel between houses, thus leaving the house factions bereft of players; messing with the ingame faction mechanics.

Thats my 2 cbills worth

I'd like to offer the following counters to your arguments.

1.) While I agree that there's a certain level of risk of disrupting the RP element of the game by this, I don't think it's so great as to truly cause a problem and here's why. While each House does have it's own designs, by and large each of the five Houses use a large portion of the same designs with only a small number of designs actually being faction specific to the point of being exclusive. Yes, there are faction exclusive designs, but they aren't usually designs which can't be substituted with something else with little to no loss of overall unit effectiveness.

2.) Yes, those players who don't side with a particular House will not have access to those faction exclusive designs, but on the other side, they will have access to their own faction specific designs. Life is about making choices and dealing with the ramifications of those choices, why shouldn't MWO be any different?

3.) While I don't disagree that this could lead to a large portion of Merc units in the game, there are limitations to even what a mercenary unit could expect to salvage or buy from their employers. Yes, a mercenary could possibly visit all five Houses and acquire the designs that they want, but by the same measure a House unit could just as easily raid those same factions for salvage and achieve the same results.

In short, yes there are pros and cons to each side of the House/Mercenary coin but that's just part of the BT Universe. You might not have access to what you want immediately, but you can always raid for it.

[MaddMaxx]

Another fact that might arise is if you make some Mechs very "rare" and I get my hands on one, I will put it in a nice clean Mech Bay and walk by it every day in awe and no one will EVER see it in the field. No way in Hades would I risk what will become an Heirloom for my Family for generations. LOL

Imo got to go with No. To RARE is not worth the Dev time and design work.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 14 December 2011 - 06:26 AM.

[VixNix]

What ever happens it would be great if there was a way to NOT reward people for having no life what-so-ever, NO rare mechs available to purchase...

If you beat it in battle and there is something left over then you should be able to salvage it

The only one I didn't vote for was Yes - limit within a unit (lances of 4 of the same rare mech

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

I would also like to see rarity by weight class. Everybody should be able to run a light or medium but heavies should be somewhat uncommon and assaults should be pretty rare. That way you don't see everybody and their brother running a whole company of 100-tonners (sorry Steiner).

[Hayden]

Paladin1, on 14 December 2011 - 05:57 AM, said:

I realize that this is a game, but the quickest way to make this game suck is to let everyone have access to all the different `Mech designs. That's not how it works in canon and that's not how things work in real life. You're not going to see a Russian force fielding an M1A2 Abrams and you shouldn't see a Marik force fielding a full lance of PNT-9R Panthers. If you do, there's something wrong.

Yeah, but something to keep in mind is that a lot of the pre-3050 TRO 'Mechs were Star League Era designs; many were in widespread use throughout the inner sphere, so even if they are not produced in a given Successor State, their appearances in those armies would be probable. It's like Khazakstan, Ukraine, and Belarus all fielding the T-80 after the break-up of the soviet union. Some designs, such as the Annihilator, Firefly and Flea should be left out completely, given their utter rarity.

Paladin1, on 14 December 2011 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'd like to offer the following counters to your arguments.

1.) While I agree that there's a certain level of risk of disrupting the RP element of the game by this, I don't think it's so great as to truly cause a problem and here's why. While each House does have it's own designs, by and large each of the five Houses use a large portion of the same designs with only a small number of designs actually being faction specific to the point of being exclusive. Yes, there are faction exclusive designs, but they aren't usually designs which can't be substituted with something else with little to no loss of overall unit effectiveness.

2.) Yes, those players who don't side with a particular House will not have access to those faction exclusive designs, but on the other side, they will have access to their own faction specific designs. Life is about making choices and dealing with the ramifications of those choices, why shouldn't MWO be any different?

3.) While I don't disagree that this could lead to a large portion of Merc units in the game, there are limitations to even what a mercenary unit could expect to salvage or buy from their employers. Yes, a mercenary could possibly visit all five Houses and acquire the designs that they want, but by the same measure a House unit could just as easily raid those same factions for salvage and achieve the same results.

In short, yes there are pros and cons to each side of the House/Mercenary coin but that's just part of the BT Universe. You might not have access to what you want immediately, but you can always raid for it.

My concern with this section is the term "house exclusive". If you mean that houses would only have access to 'mechs that are being produced by canon in this time frame, I totally disagree. In this time frame, Capellan production is still a mess (no assault 'mechs; the heaviest in production are 70 ton Cataphrachts. The Capellans don't even have factories to make Catapults anymore, as these fell into Davion hands during the 4th Succession War).

I think your strongest point is 3, in that there should be some kind of metagame system which allows factions to capture factories, thus allowing their players to buy certain 'mechs. I would build upon this, by allowing all players to buy any mech, but making it more costly to do so. This way the diversity of 'mechs is represented, but their numbers are kept in check.

In principal, I agree with just about everything you said, but I'm worried about alienating more casual elements.

EDIT:

Skwisgaar Skwigelf, on 14 December 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

I would also like to see rarity by weight class. Everybody should be able to run a light or medium but heavies should be somewhat uncommon and assaults should be pretty rare. That way you don't see everybody and their brother running a whole company of 100-tonners (sorry Steiner).

Stongly agree. Hopefully the devs have a good system.

Edited by Hayden, 14 December 2011 - 06:36 AM.

[Paladin1]

Hayden, on 14 December 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

Yeah, but something to keep in mind is that a lot of the pre-3050 TRO 'Mechs were Star League Era designs; many were in widespread use throughout the inner sphere, so even if they are not produced in a given Successor State, their appearances in those armies would be probable. It's like Khazakstan, Ukraine, and Belarus all fielding the T-80 after the break-up of the soviet union. Some designs, such as the Annihilator, Firefly and Flea should be left out completely, given their utter rarity.

I totally agree with what you're saying here, my point was that certain House produced designs, such as the Enforcer, shouldn't be available to other Houses unless it's through salvage. I know that there's going to be a core of common designs, but at the same time there should also be designs which are faction exclusive such as the Draconis Combine's Jenner, Panther and Dragon `Mechs or the Federated Suns' Enforcer and Valkyrie.

Quote

My concern with this section is the term "house exclusive". If you mean that houses would only have access to 'mechs that are being produced by canon in this time frame, I totally disagree. In this time frame, Capellan production is still a mess (no assault 'mechs; the heaviest in production are 70 ton Cataphrachts. The Capellans don't even have factories to make Catapults anymore, as these fell into Davion hands during the 4th Succession War).

I think your strongest point is 3, in that there should be some kind of metagame system which allows factions to capture factories, thus allowing their players to buy certain 'mechs. I would build upon this, by allowing all players to buy any mech, but making it more costly to do so. This way the diversity of 'mechs is represented, but their numbers are kept in check.

In principal, I agree with just about everything you said, but I'm worried about alienating more casual elements.

Let me clarify here, I don't mean that each House would only have it's faction exclusive designs, I mean that each House would have their faction exclusive designs in addition to the general designs common to everyone.

[Hayden]

Paladin1, on 14 December 2011 - 06:42 AM, said:

Let me clarify here, I don't mean that each House would only have it's faction exclusive designs, I mean that each House would have their faction exclusive designs in addition to the general designs common to everyone.

How would you differentiate between general and house specific? (I like the notion, I'm just curious about your thoughts on implementation).

[Cyote13]

I think maybe Mechs could be done by faction by the prices of them. There were always a few of other houses mechs in every army...its the way it worked out, especially since salvage is a big part of the universe. Maybe all mechs are available to all players in each house, but Panthers would be more expensive in the FWL than in Kurita space, and probably even more expensive than in Davion space.

[Artifice]

That's a tough question, but I think that it would be closer to canon to limit purchases towards what would be available in the area. In defense of an agro-world you might only be able to find light mechs, etc. I recall this mechanic in the original MechWarrior pc game, but it was severely limited by the overall 'mech choices.

Backup mechs should totally be an important point in development. Especially if drawn out campaigns are waged over the course of several days, or weeks even.

[Paladin1]

Besides, which is a cooler story to explain how you came to own that rare AS7-D Atlas?

"We stopped by Quentin on the way to our last garrison contract and picked up a new Atlas to replace Simmons' Banshee and it's still got the "new `Mech" smell in it"

or

"So there I was, hip deep in a whole lance of Drac Panthers and I'm goin' at it elbows and ********, with snakes droppin' around me like flies, when around the corner stomps the biggest, meanest lookin' Atlas that I've ever laid eyes on. I didn't even realize he was there until he rounded the corner and proceeded to try to rip my `Mech to shreds. I couldn't run, couldn't hide and I only had two cassettes left for my Victor's Pontiac 100 so I did what any right thinkin' `Mechjock would do. I emptied my last two cassettes into that malfers chest and then jumped on his head and proceeded to kick the everlovin' **** outta him. Sure, I lost my family's Victor, but I was able to salvage the Atlas after it was all said and done and who in their right mind wouldn't make that trade?"

[Paladin1]

Hayden, on 14 December 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:

How would you differentiate between general and house specific? (I like the notion, I'm just curious about your thoughts on implementation).

Well, a good idea of what I have in mind is the Master Unit List (MUL) over on the TT game site. Here's the link for reference.

http://www.masteruni.../GettingStarted

To sum it up though, if a unit is in production in a certain House, that House has access to that design. Certain designs, which were produced in the hundreds of thousands during the Star League era (e.g. Warhammer, Archer, Crusader, Thunderbolt) are so widely spread that even though the factories are often destroyed, they're still considered a general availability design. Other designs, such as the Firefly, Spartan or Falcon, are not only out of production but are so rare that only a handful are still in existence in the entire Inner Sphere. (e.g. At last count, there were only 3 Spartan chassis left in the entire Inner Sphere and they were all in the possession of Comstar)

[Hayden]

Paladin1, on 14 December 2011 - 07:07 AM, said:

Well, a good idea of what I have in mind is the Master Unit List (MUL) over on the TT game site. Here's the link for reference.

http://www.masteruni.../GettingStarted

To sum it up though, if a unit is in production in a certain House, that House has access to that design. Certain designs, which were produced in the hundreds of thousands during the Star League era (e.g. Warhammer, Archer, Crusader, Thunderbolt) are so widely spread that even though the factories are often destroyed, they're still considered a general availability design. Other designs, such as the Firefly, Spartan or Falcon, are not only out of production but are so rare that only a handful are still in existence in the entire Inner Sphere. (e.g. At last count, there were only 3 Spartan chassis left in the entire Inner Sphere and they were all in the possession of Comstar)

I am satiated. I have to say, I'm pretty much of the mind that Fireflies, Spartans and Annihilators (ed: etc.) should just be kept out altogether...

Edited by Hayden, 14 December 2011 - 07:14 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Depends on the mechs a house gets exclusivly. If, for example, the dracs end up with the Dragon as their only heavy mech, I'm against a limitation.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 14 December 2011 - 07:42 AM.

[Mechteric]

I'd like to see discounts on house mechs, and maybe different free starter mechs per faction, but otherwise all should remain available for purchasing

[Barantor]

I actually wouldn't mind some sort of tournament for a super rare mech that was held by MWO once a year. Say you win the ultimate solaris tournament in May, you get your choice of an Annihilator, Falcon or Firefly or something like that. Other types of tournaments could be held for lances, companies, etc, but with less rare mechs but still rare enough to not be in common use.

This would allow super rares to exist, but you would only be seeing them once in a blue moon.