58 replies to this topic

[naterist]

No, its horse -****.

I oppose any tax on using mechlab assests, and skill tree is really part of the mechlab conseptually, and now by tab as well.

[Palfatreos]

There no reason to make a respec cost beside being sinkhole it punish experimenting in return for nothing. All it will leave a bad aftertaste for your players.
Just because people have huge unused xp doesn't mean you have to put a system to waste it especially since you can't do anything else with xp anyway.
For that same reason we should implent repair cost/ammo refuel cost/aging cost for cbil sinkhole becuase there people with big cbill pool. It does not improve player experience of the game, nor monetisation of the game but the reverse effect.

[Excalibaard]

Naaaaak, on 26 April 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

Excalibaard: 0.89 W/L Ratio. Tier 3?

No respec cost is fair. A pillar of the game is customization and experimentation. The "fair" cost for changing your loadout and trying new things is 0 XP once you've already made the unlock. You should try it more. You might get out of Tier 3.

Ooh, personal attacks because I'm not 'Tier 1' so I have no right to an opinion? That's professional!
I've played since beta, so I'm only occasionally returning to the game once new stuff is announced. Haven't played all that much since the introduction of tiers, but have been up to date with the news/releases to see if there were some interesting changes.
Please take your leave with that ******** elitism

The game needs an XP sink in some way. IMO a respec cost would be a good way to do it. If 400 is too much, maybe 200. But then, once you get a single good 1st win of the day match with 4k XP, that's already 20 nodes re-equipped in the latter case and it's very unlikely you'll have to respec all 91 of them.

Therefore, 400xp may seem much, especially if you keep trying completely different builds. When you're just tinkering around with similar weapons, like how 'many SRM4/6/+A can I run alongside my SPL/ML/MPL', you won't even feel it at all. The funny thing in all of this is that I agree it's bad for new, irregular players and tinkerers, but overall it's an understandable design decision that needs to be balanced towards the more casual players.

[Palfatreos]

Excalibaard, on 27 April 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

Ooh, personal attacks because I'm not 'Tier 1' so I have no right to an opinion? That's professional!
I've played since beta, so I'm only occasionally returning to the game once new stuff is announced. Haven't played all that much since the introduction of tiers, but have been up to date with the news/releases to see if there were some interesting changes.
Please take your leave with that ******** elitism

The game needs an XP sink in some way. IMO a respec cost would be a good way to do it. If 400 is too much, maybe 200. But then, once you get a single good 1st win of the day match with 4k XP, that's already 20 nodes re-equipped in the latter case and it's very unlikely you'll have to respec all 91 of them.

Therefore, 400xp may seem much, especially if you keep trying completely different builds. When you're just tinkering around with similar weapons, like how 'many SRM4/6/+A can I run alongside my SPL/ML/MPL', you won't even feel it at all. The funny thing in all of this is that I agree it's bad for new, irregular players and tinkerers, but overall it's an understandable design decision that needs to be balanced towards the more casual players.

Can you give a good reason why to implent the sinkhole though. having to much xp does not affect the game/other people/buy other stuff. I understand why sinkhole are implented on MMORPG games with trading system to try fight inflation. But MWO does not have that problem so what the justification for sinkholes especially xp that has a single purpose anyway.

For example my ebj most used mech it got +1 mill xp. So if even i respec whole day and maybe make a dent of of 100k xp i still have an virtual number of 900k xp? So what did this reduce xp do to he game. You lowered this virtual xp number that could do nothing anyway. All it does is increasing the xp treshold where nobody has to much care while reaching it in the first place had no negative effect on the game system/economy.

[Parashurama]

oldradagast, on 26 April 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

The respect cost is just a slap in the face and some silly attempt to punish people for changing their mech builds. It's idiotic and has no place in a game like this, where the mechlab and changing your mech is a huge part of the game.
.....
GRIND is NOT CONTENT, and respec costs have no place in a game like this.

Amen.

[Kozmik]

I generally like the new system and the amount of cusomizability involved.

I would really like however for the respec costs to be removed.

The systems is exciting in its complexity, but the fun will be in tinkering to tailor to a playstyle or goal. Respec costs make tinkering stressful. Instead of just trying something out, I now need to plan very carefully before trying anything.

I would like the 91 pts to be fully redeployable (i.e., click respec, get the points back, and spread them out again). Barring that, I would at least like any node I have unlocked to not cost xp to reactivate.

The system is too complex and fine grained to penalize people for wanting to tinker and refine or even change completely what they have in place.

All of these things said, I do want to thank PGI for developing an interesting system for customization!

Edited by Kozmik, 29 April 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[FireStoat]

The respec cost does not support the design goal of the skill tree system of "encourage a wide variety of builds", and is a matter of pure fact worse than the current system we have. There are no arguments to be made against this point. The design goal should be removed from the text because it's a pure lie at this stage.

Moving on, I'd accept the fact that they want to sell more premium time with the costs. I get it. I'd also accept it as-is IF they had the PTS constantly up and refreshing my account data at the close of every 24 hours so I could TEST a new purchase layout without spending game currency, just to TEST it.

With the way it's set up now, players will have to take 'baby steps' of purchasing and testing under a cloud of paranoia in screwing up a purchase, which IS not fun, and WILL not be attractive to new or current players.

[soapyfrog]

Excalibaard, on 27 April 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

The game needs an XP sink in some way.

It already has one, but I don't see why it needs another. Very few people want an endless grind.

Most games just stop accumulating XP when you hit max level. The only reason this one does not is to encourage you to spend MC to convert to GXP.

The idea that there "needs" to be an XP sink is illusory.

[Excalibaard]

Fair enough, it doesn't really 'need' one in that sense.

[Chound]

CadoAzazel, on 26 April 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

Respec Costs Must Go Are Low

FTFY.


By the time you play a few games in 1st spec / loadout you'll have enough xp for a new spec/loadout.

Sorry but that's not true. I usually get maybew 20 XP per drop. If I wanted to respec it would bake awhile to grind that much XP for a respec. I'm not sure how to convert regular XP and GXP so I can make skill points.unless I use MC which sucks big time.

[Appuagab]

Respec costs make ZERO sense. I totally cannot understand for what purpose they did it. That's so dumb and unreasonable that just this single small thing is going to keep me from re-installing game even after new tech and new skill tree release. Because it's total clownery and I just won't be able to take this game seriously anymore.

[WillyPete]

If PGI insist that respec costs are required, then a compromise would be to allow 3 free uses of the Respec button to encourage experimentation and facilitate the XP poor new players.

[Idiocide]

I am fine with paying the 45000/800 cost up front to unlock any node for the first time. However, once unlocked, you should be able to utilized that node forever for free. You can still have only 91 active at any time, but you have to pay for all 242 nodes once, in order to utlize any node at any time for free forever.

[Kyle Katarn]

WillyPete, on 27 April 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

If PGI insist that respec costs are required, then a compromise would be to allow 3 free uses of the Respec button to encourage experimentation and facilitate the XP poor new players.

I totally disagree. Part of fun in that game is experimenting with builds. I'm mad enough because i will have to make 91 click, and PGI also expects me to like hitting my fingers with ruler by making me grind to try single fun loadout? No way!

Edited by Kyle Katarn, 27 April 2017 - 05:00 PM.

[oldradagast]

Kyle Katarn, on 27 April 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

I totally disagree. Part of fun in that game is experimenting with builds. I'm mad enough because i will have to make 91 click, and PGI also expects me to like hitting my fingers with ruler by making me grind to try single fun loadout? No way!

PGI has no understanding of their game or the player base; they clearly think most people just want to buy a few meta-mechs, slap a few meta-builds on them, and call it a day. Hey, isn't that what esports are about? A few viable builds, lots of crap, and endless repetition? They seem to think so. Clearly, the one thing separating MWO from the halls of esport fame is that we have too much variety and creativity allowed in the game! Lunacy...

As for the interface, PGI couldn't design a decent one to save their skin, so the skill maze click-fest, which is about as much fun as doing one's taxes, is par for the course for them.

[WillyPete]

Kyle Katarn, on 27 April 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

I totally disagree. Part of fun in that game is experimenting with builds. I'm mad enough because i will have to make 91 click, and PGI also expects me to like hitting my fingers with ruler by making me grind to try single fun loadout? No way!

I agree.
As I said, if PGI are unwilling to move on this, it would be a compromise.

Edited by WillyPete, 27 April 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[Nutta88]

Idiocide, on 27 April 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

I am fine with paying the 45000/800 cost up front to unlock any node for the first time. However, once unlocked, you should be able to utilized that node forever for free. You can still have only 91 active at any time, but you have to pay for all 242 nodes once, in order to utlize any node at any time for free forever.

this might actually provide some motivation to have all the GSP we're being offered. Paying to unlock all the nodes you might want unlock, then tweak freely within the 91 limit of active skills. All well and good to have an xp repec cost with our favourite mechs, but certain mechs are painful to basic let alone master. Getting xp out of some mechs is a chore.

[soapyfrog]

I don't really agree that you should have to pay for every node.

Having to pay for every node drives the cost of mastery well above 72,800xp and 4.1 million cbills. Mastery should be a reasonable grind that has a definitive endpoint, not this open ended grind they are proposing.

[Chris8440]

Customizing your mechs and experimenting with different builds is some integral part of MWO. Putting a steep cost of 400 XP per node that is switched is too much. This is just an artificially enforced XP-sink.

Changing your build according to gamemode (quick play, faction play etc.) or switching your mech build from dakka to laservomit, gauss / PPC or whatever you imagine should not be punished by XP loss.

In the current skill system, I can equip and unequip my mech and weapon modules freely and without cost. This freedom should not be taken away.

In the new skill system I would have to pay from 400 XP for respeccing a single node node to worst case 36400 XP for respeccing each and every node. An average respec of ~30 nodes will still be 12000 XP.

So if you own a lot of mechs, good luck on earning this amount of xp on less played variants or having to spend precious GXP to respec.

So PGI, please stop punishing innovative players by creating artificial XP / GXP sinks and remove respec costs. If this is not possible, at least bring the cost down to a range from 100-50 XP.

Creating an artificial sinkhole for XP / GXP in anticipation of increased revenue from premium time / XP -> GXP conversion sales is a slap in the face towards your loyal player base.

Players who do not want to throw money down the sink will just pick one optimized build and stick to it until the meta changes. This kills variety.

It also punishes new players who may pick a totally wrong skill layout. Without respeccing cost, they may optimize their layout slowly by trial and error, experimenting, or by reading some guides here on the forums or mwo related websites like metamechs.

New players usually dont have mechs lying around with 100K's to a million xp on it to convert or loads of GXP like veteran players. Every error will be costly for them, will discourage them, decrease new player retention and will do nothing to increase MWO's already small player base.

So as I said, either no or greatly lowered respeccing costs.

[MrMagoo421]

This is about the only thing in the new system that I completely disagree with. All the rest I may quibble over numbers and minor tweaks, this one though is just punitive and severely punishing to more casual players. Since 2 people in my household are in that boat, I'm sure this will heavily impact their enjoyment of the game, and therefor the frequency with which they join me in playing.

Anything that makes life bad for the casual player is crippling to the game as they far outnumber the hardcores. Without them, we don't have anyone to shoot when we hit 'find game'.