58 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Monkey Lover, on 26 April 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

Atlas 4x6srm_heavy gauss and dont worry about heat

I get this is a joke, but it is also missing what is really the hottest part of the typical AS7-S build (and it isn't the AC20).

[Ruar]

I should also ask if the people who think the lights are less agile are putting some skill points to even out the agility from the skills on live. You can't get a fair test if you are using unskilled test mechs compared to skilled live mechs. Please make sure the agility items are comparable when doing the testing.

[naterist]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 April 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

Taking a bunch of firepower skills on an Atlas will be the exact same waste because of how deep you have to go into the tree to get enough useful skills. The most important firepower skills aren't even in the firepower tree, they are in operations or whatever (heat containment and cool run).

also, theirs so much different stuff there, im starting to think most of firepower is just for filler after you get everything else you need. my atlas would literally never touch it, because it has so many other things thats useful for its job as the company shield/sledgehammer. why do i need range on lbs and srms? or spread reduction? im trying to scare, not kill. i got 11 guys behind me for getting kills. i just gotta hit everything. my marauder with dual lbs however, gains immensely from the firepower tree as opposed to cool downs and agility, because its role is different.

and cool run was never a firepwoer quirk, it was a basic skill. it makes sense their in different spots since it has more to do with your mech cooling and heat buildup from the engine powering the weapons, rather than the weapons themselves.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

naterist, on 26 April 2017 - 12:27 PM, said:

and cool run was never a firepwoer quirk, it was a basic skill.

....You are taking me literally when you really shouldn't. When I say firepower skill, I mean one that benefits firepower, and cool run does one thing, it increases your firepower through better sustained DPS, that's its only purpose.

[Katastrophy Kid]

I'd like to make four points,

First, from a physics stand point decoupling makes no sense. A STD400 engine provides more power to the legs but equal power to the other moving parts of the mech, like the torso and arms as a STD60?

Second, from a Lore and Cannon perspective Mechs aren't just giant lumbering walking tanks. They were, dare I say, graceful and agile war-machines. Decoupling just turns this game into mobile turret warfare.

Third, taking away from what people already have is a sure fire way to piss them off.

And last, who is this a sticking point for anyway? Clanners? So what if they're stuck with the engine that comes in their omni-mechs. That's the trade off for being able to swap hardpoints. Taking away from agility by completely decoupling it from engine rating doesn't balance anything.

[Ruar]

Katastrophe Kid, on 26 April 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'd like to make four points,

First, from a physics stand point decoupling makes no sense. A STD400 engine provides more power to the legs but equal power to the other moving parts of the mech, like the torso and arms as a STD60?

Second, from a Lore and Cannon perspective Mechs aren't just giant lumbering walking tanks. They were, dare I say, graceful and agile war-machines. Decoupling just turns this game into mobile turret warfare.

Third, taking away from what people already have is a sure fire way to piss them off.

And last, who is this a sticking point for anyway? Clanners? So what if they're stuck with the engine that comes in their omni-mechs. That's the trade off for being able to swap hardpoints. Taking away from agility by completely decoupling it from engine rating doesn't balance anything.

1. The entire concept of how a BattleMech works goes against physics. Nuclear engine generates electricity which powers electrical based muscles to push/pull in something that is routinely exposed to water, massive temperature changes, and uses a radiator system for cooling.

2. Agreed, but the game can't support that level of artistry. And to be fair most mechs were lumbering while the named pilots were the ones who could move gracefully.

3. Nerfs happen and you can't always give in games. Sometimes you have to take away in order to achieve balance.

4. Having engines coupled to agility causes a lot of problems trying to balance different weight classes and max engine capacity. If you want to go back to a physics/lore standpoint it's the actuators that really do the moving and they have a maximum movement ability. It doesn't matter how much power you can pour into an actuator if it's limited to a certain torque ratio.

Decoupling makes sense, it's just a matter of tweaking the results to get each weight class balanced against the others. Something that can't truly happen until it goes live and there is enough data to see trends.

[Commander James Raynor]

Katastrophe Kid, on 26 April 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

I'd like to make four points,

First, from a physics stand point decoupling makes no sense. A STD400 engine provides more power to the legs but equal power to the other moving parts of the mech, like the torso and arms as a STD60?

Second, from a Lore and Cannon perspective Mechs aren't just giant lumbering walking tanks. They were, dare I say, graceful and agile war-machines. Decoupling just turns this game into mobile turret warfare.

Third, taking away from what people already have is a sure fire way to piss them off.

And last, who is this a sticking point for anyway? Clanners? So what if they're stuck with the engine that comes in their omni-mechs. That's the trade off for being able to swap hardpoints. Taking away from agility by completely decoupling it from engine rating doesn't balance anything.

I couldn't agree more with the first point: it makes no physical sense. They're using it just as a balancing tool so they can nerf the agility of some mechs without using negative quirks, so it's a camouflaged way of nerfing. I don't really know why they would nerf agility. I know it benefits me, since I have terrible aim and I struggle when shooting at moving targets, but I don't get why is agility an issue that deserved changing.

About the third point, I also agree, and I'd add that it's not just a nerf around the board, it's a unequal change between chasis, and that's something that pisses me off, because it takes away from so many of my mechs.

[Katastrophy Kid]

Ruar, on 26 April 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

1. The entire concept of how a BattleMech works goes against physics. Nuclear engine generates electricity which powers electrical based muscles to push/pull in something that is routinely exposed to water, massive temperature changes, and uses a radiator system for cooling.

2. Agreed, but the game can't support that level of artistry. And to be fair most mechs were lumbering while the named pilots were the ones who could move gracefully.

3. Nerfs happen and you can't always give in games. Sometimes you have to take away in order to achieve balance.

4. Having engines coupled to agility causes a lot of problems trying to balance different weight classes and max engine capacity. If you want to go back to a physics/lore standpoint it's the actuators that really do the moving and they have a maximum movement ability. It doesn't matter how much power you can pour into an actuator if it's limited to a certain torque ratio.

Decoupling makes sense, it's just a matter of tweaking the results to get each weight class balanced against the others. Something that can't truly happen until it goes live and there is enough data to see trends.

What is wrong with the way agility is tied to engine rating, exactly? How does it make balancing difficult? And, How are things unbalanced now?

[Ruar]

KDK is the easiest example. High engine rating results in high agility on one of the heaviest mechs in the game. Decoupling means that mech can still travel just as fast but it's turn ability is reduced to be more appropriate to the weight of the mech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Katastrophe Kid, on 26 April 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

And, How are things unbalanced now?

Because things that move fast are stupidly strong compared to mechs that are slow because what little extra firepower those mechs gain for going slow doesn't overcome the extra agility AND speed the other mechs get. The Night Gyr is a lone and special exception.

[Katastrophy Kid]

Ruar, on 26 April 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

KDK is the easiest example. High engine rating results in high agility on one of the heaviest mechs in the game. Decoupling means that mech can still travel just as fast but it's turn ability is reduced to be more appropriate to the weight of the mech.

So you assume that a large mech necessarily has to be cumbersome and unwieldy?

Edited by Katastrophe Kid, 26 April 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[Ruar]

Katastrophe Kid, on 26 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

So you assume that a large mech necessarily has to be cumbersome and unwieldy?

Where we disagree is on what is necessary or not. I think the heavier a mech is the slower it should be able to turn and twist. I think it's necessary for balance to have heavier mechs vulnerable to lighers mechs who can turn faster. It makes mechs more dependent on each other for defense as well as provides advantages to each weight in certain situations. This rewards better pilots who play to the situations which work better for their mech chassis.

Edited by Ruar, 26 April 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Ravika]

I can vouch that the 'light' medium mechs, i.e. Cicada and Assassin, have taken serious hits to their maneuverability even when the new agility tree is maxed. The live data doesn't show the exact numbers, but rather a graph of acceleration, deceleration, and turn speed for various velocities, but even with max investment into maneuverability it is objectively and significantly worse. I have the graphs (on my home computer) and can post them, but it is enough that the 'feel' is very sluggish, and the modest decrement to maneuverability makes it difficult to flank 'mechs like the MAD-IIC that can suddenly spec 20% accel/decel and 20% turn rate when they never did before.

I'm not a complainer, but I will be sad if my preferred playstyle is no longer viable, as I don't think it was overpowered, and rewarded practice and skill.

[Katastrophy Kid]

Ruar, on 26 April 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

Where we disagree is on what is necessary or not. I think the heavier a mech is the slower it should be able to turn and twist. I think it's necessary for balance to have heavier mechs vulnerable to lighers mechs who can turn faster. It makes mechs more dependent on each other for defense as well as provides advantages to each weight in certain situations. This rewards better pilots who play to the situations which work better for their mech chassis.

That is already the case. Decoupling only exacerbates assault and heavy mech vulnerabilities to lights. It is an unnecessary nerf.

Also, I don't want to play Turret Warrior Online.

[Ruar]

Katastrophe Kid, on 26 April 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

That is already the case. Decoupling only exacerbates assault and heavy mech vulnerabilities to lights. It is an unnecessary nerf.

Also, I don't want to play Turret Warrior Online.

As primarily a medium pilot who relies on out maneuvering assaults/heavies I would say it's absolutely necessary.

[Katastrophy Kid]

Ruar, on 26 April 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

As primarily a medium pilot who relies on out maneuvering assaults/heavies I would say it's absolutely necessary.

I play mechs across the spectrum. My Phoenix Hawk is sluggish on the test server, too so, decoupling is a nerf across the board defeating the purpose of balancing. Its just makes all the weight classes lesser. Also, a medium shouldn't be on equal terms with an assault, which is what you seem to want.

[Katastrophy Kid]

My Pirate's Bane is now ineffective because of the nerf.

[Cementi]

It has not gone unnoticed it simply is not as big of a deal.

Engine decoupling is a good thing and I fully endorse it. I have been tinkering with a few mechs and I feel for the most part its pretty good.

However obviously there is going to have to be some adjustments after it goes live as a full balancing is going to need more data than the test server population can provide. So long as adjustments are made incrementally each month after this is released I see no problem with it being released as is.

As far as the light mech concern.....I do not see it. I played my Panther 10P which I run like a mini centurion with an AC 10 and a standard engine. Requires a great deal of twisting to utilize the extra armor it gets (which it gets on live too though I was able to add to it on test). If anything I was able to shield even more effectively with it and was easily able to out manuver a timberwolf with it, something I would have been hard pressed to do on live.

[Ruar]

Katastrophe Kid, on 26 April 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

I play mechs across the spectrum. My Phoenix Hawk is sluggish on the test server, too so, decoupling is a nerf across the board defeating the purpose of balancing. Its just makes all the weight classes lesser. Also, a medium shouldn't be on equal terms with an assault, which is what you seem to want.

My Enforcer felt the same on test as it does on live.

And I never said the medium should be equal terms as the assault. I said there are times when a medium should be able to out maneuver an assault in order to gain an advantage. At the same time the assault has advantages over that medium.

Battletech is not designed around the idea that the bigger the mech the better. It's designed around the idea of group based warfare where different mechs fill different roles and terrain, weapon selection, group makeup, and coordination all combine to shape the battlefield.

If the medium is able to sneak up behind an assault then it should be a serious problem for that assault. Currently on live the assault just turns around faster than the medium can circle. The medium should be rewarded for getting in behind the assault the same way the assault should be rewarded for using it's superior firepower to cripple the medium before it can close the gap.

[ocular tb]

Am I understanding correctly that a mech such as a Victor with a 300 engine will have the same turn/twist rate as a Victor with a 385? And the turn/twist is going to be based on a mech by mech basis?