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Could You Guys Come With Me To The Car Dealer, I Want To Trade In My Old Motor


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#161 Mister Blastman

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:06 PM

View Postvandalhooch, on 27 April 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

Stuff


Before we were going to have to spend 9 million space bux on every bot we owned to level them up again, plus use our accumulated XP.

Now we don't. We get to level them for free.

This is a definite improvement.

#162 vandalhooch

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 07:56 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Before we were going to have to spend 9 million space bux on every bot we owned to level them up again, plus use our accumulated XP.


Module owners didn't have a problem with that. Each of my mechs are all carrying an extra 16-20 million C-bills in modules on them that I was going to get back. I played thousands of additional drops to be able to equip each of them that way.

You didn't grind as much as me so you were going to be forced to grind as much as I did in order to experience the same benefit as me. Your's was future grind and mine was past but we both end up grinding the the same relative time for each mech.

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Now we don't. We get to level them for free.


Now, you get to enjoy the benefits of all your mechs being fully moduled mechs (91 MSP) without having actually done all the grinding to get all of it. I get to have fully moduled mechs too, but I actually ground out and spent the C-bills for such a benefit. Your ground C-bills went into mechs/weapons/engines which you are not being required to give up. Can I say the same for my modules?

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This is a definite improvement.


Yes. But you benefit from the improvement much, much more than I do. That's the sticking point in my opinion. You will sit there and keep pretending that we are both being treated the same in this iteration when in fact the first iteration was the true equal treatment. Makes you either completely ignorant or a raging hypocrite. Take your pick. I'm fine with using either label for you.

Edited by vandalhooch, 27 April 2017 - 07:59 PM.


#163 Mister Blastman

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:26 PM

View Postvandalhooch, on 27 April 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

Lots of words


I don't grind. I play this game to watch the life fade from people's eyes as I press my hot barrels into their warm bodies. C-bills and whatever else I get are a benefit for the endorphin rush I get from each blow I make.

I'm fine with this compromise. You aren't. Whatever. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. :)

#164 vandalhooch

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:31 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:


I don't grind. I play this game to watch the life fade from people's eyes as I press my hot barrels into their warm bodies. C-bills and whatever else I get are a benefit for the endorphin rush I get from each blow I make.

I'm fine with this compromise. You aren't. Whatever. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Posted Image


You were not fine with the first one that treated us both the same. You are fine with the current one that benefits you more than me.

Big flipping surprise.

So, you are going with raging hypocrite. Good to know.

EDIT: Stop using words like compromise when you clearly don't understand their meaning.

You - all mastered mechs treated as master+modules (even though most aren't) in new system and keep all C-bill purchases

Me - all mastered mechs treated as master+modules (almost all really are) in new system and lose hundreds of millions of C-bill purchases

Please show me where you compromised. I'd really like to see that level of mental gymnastics in action!

Edited by vandalhooch, 27 April 2017 - 08:43 PM.


#165 Mister Blastman

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:06 PM

View Postvandalhooch, on 27 April 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:


You were not fine with the first one that treated us both the same. You are fine with the current one that benefits you more than me.

Big flipping surprise.

So, you are going with raging hypocrite. Good to know.

EDIT: Stop using words like compromise when you clearly don't understand their meaning.

You - all mastered mechs treated as master+modules (even though most aren't) in new system and keep all C-bill purchases

Me - all mastered mechs treated as master+modules (almost all really are) in new system and lose hundreds of millions of C-bill purchases

Please show me where you compromised. I'd really like to see that level of mental gymnastics in action!


The first one was not right. The first one cost us 9 million c-bills when it should have cost us none.

Oh, and by the way, name calling doesn't help your case, it actually makes you look bad. You should calm down and take a few deep breaths. Everything will be okay.

#166 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 12:47 AM

Because comparing RL stuff that ages in RL against a virtual stuff that remains unchanged no matter how long you use it totally makes sense ...

Fkn get a clue already.

#167 Ace Selin

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 12:50 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:


The first one was not right. The first one cost us 9 million c-bills when it should have cost us none.

Oh, and by the way, name calling doesn't help your case, it actually makes you look bad. You should calm down and take a few deep breaths. Everything will be okay.

Your ignorance of the situation for some is glaring and you likely deserved the harsh tones by being so obtuse.

#168 Vellron2005

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 03:25 AM

View PostDogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.


Hahahahahaha, good one :D

#169 vandalhooch

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 06:35 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 27 April 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:


The first one was not right. The first one cost us 9 million c-bills when it should have cost us none.


What is this "should" nonsense? You think the first iteration was unfair because they are including a C-bill sink in the skill tree?

That's not the issue. Did the first iteration treat all players (module owners vs. borrowers) the same? Yes it did. It was fair.

Quote

Oh, and by the way, name calling doesn't help your case, it actually makes you look bad. You should calm down and take a few deep breaths. Everything will be okay.


Oh, and if I don't call you a deranged sea cucumber, you are going to suddenly admit that the first iteration was the fair one and you only like the second because it benefits you more than others? Please.

"This ain't my first rodeo."

#170 Mister Blastman

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 06:43 AM

View PostAce Selin, on 28 April 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Your ignorance of the situation for some is glaring and you likely deserved the harsh tones by being so obtuse.


I'm not ignorant, I'm enlightened!

Just because someone disagrees with your point of view does not make them ignorant. I see this term tossed around often by folks on a holy crusade of idealistic justice, that all beneath them are wrong. What makes someone wrong is facts that can be backed with evidence, and in this case, the facts support us coming out better than we were before with this new system they have implemented.

This isn't something that can simply be compared on a c-bill to c-bill basis, due to an XP and c-bill system being merged together.

Before, you had to pay c-bills to get modules to obtain abilities such as radar derp and seismic. But you also had to pay a little bit of XP up front to unlock for one time only, depending on the module. It was a minimal amount of XP, nothing huge.

In the new system, we're given automatically all the XP (SP) we need to obtain all the abilities AND modules... for free. No c-bills. And we have all sorts of new abilities to pick and choose from, too.

Once we're out of SP, we spend c-bills and XP to get SP, but for most, that won't be for a very long time, if ever again.

We win.

In the past, folks who spent disposable income on extra modules were accepting opportunity cost. The expenditure satisfied their desire to save time from swapping in order to simply click play. These were luxury goods. They were not essential products, as swapping could afford them more c-bills in the bank at the cost of a little bit of their time. So over the course of owning these modules, they enjoyed this advantage that they paid for.

Now they get to keep the modules, like they had before -and- get half their money back.

How many stores can you walk into and say, "Yo, can I have my money back for this?" and they reply, "Sure, here's half, oh, and you can just keep the product. Enjoy." How many let you do this?

None.

This is essentially what is happening now. We all get modules for free. Why should we get a full refund for keeping the product?

We shouldn't. So instead, PGI compromised, and gave us SP which means we never have to grind again, or for a very long time, we no longer have to buy three of each chassis, no longer have to spend millions on modules or re-speccing our already mastered robits.

What they have done is fair and reasonable.

So color me ignorant? I have looked at all the facts and evidence. I'm anything but. I am enlightened.

Please don't toss around dangerous vocabulary until you understand exactly what it means. Have a nice day!

Posted Image

View Postvandalhooch, on 28 April 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

That's not the issue. Did the first iteration treat all players (module owners vs. borrowers) the same? Yes it did. It was fair.


The first iteration was anything but fair because it expected us to pay again for something we already had before. This iteration does not.

#171 vandalhooch

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 06:54 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 28 April 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

The first iteration was anything but fair because it expected us to pay again for something we already had before. This iteration does not.


This iteration doesn't require YOU to pay. I have to pay several hundred million C-bills.

Stop claiming that you understand. You don't.

#172 Mister Blastman

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:09 AM

View Postvandalhooch, on 28 April 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:


This iteration doesn't require YOU to pay. I have to pay several hundred million C-bills.

Stop claiming that you understand. You don't.


The facts don't lie. I have laid them out. PGI has laid them out. You're welcome to run the permutations in complete, provided a detailed comparative analysis, show underlying work and formulae and once you do, I'm pretty sure you'll arrive at the same conclusion I and many others have.

It is not often I defend a PGI decision, but this time I feel I must due to the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence.

Have a nice day!

#173 metallio

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:17 AM

View Postvandalhooch, on 27 April 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

Yes. But you benefit from the improvement much, much more than I do. That's the sticking point in my opinion. You will sit there and keep pretending that we are both being treated the same in this iteration when in fact the first iteration was the true equal treatment. Makes you either completely ignorant or a raging hypocrite. Take your pick. I'm fine with using either label for you.


You...You're serious? Your whole issue is that some people are going to get back more than you and you don't want them to? I can't believe that's right...

"It's not fair!" when everyone is getting tons of sh3t back to play with? FFS people...I'm even a proponent of giving you frikkin' cbills for your modules if you want them but you really sound like a childish **** in that statement.

I say just leave the modules in people's inventory. Then they can't complain that they didn't get a refund for something that was removed. It's still there!

#174 vandalhooch

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:29 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 28 April 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:


I'm not ignorant, I'm enlightened!

Just because someone disagrees with your point of view does not make them ignorant. I see this term tossed around often by folks on a holy crusade of idealistic justice, that all beneath them are wrong. What makes someone wrong is facts that can be backed with evidence, and in this case, the facts support us coming out better than we were before with this new system they have implemented.


Pardon me, I have to put out a small fire. My hypocrisy meter just blew.

You are ignorant. Despite the fact that many have actually shown you the evidence you keep pretending that there is a "we" in this iteration. You keep pretending that everyone is being treated the same in the new iteration. Everyone is not being treated the same. And the galling part is that the unfair treatment for some is a direct result of you and others like you throwing a temper tantrum earlier because you couldn't understand how the first iteration was absolutely fair in its treatment of everyone.

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This isn't something that can simply be compared on a c-bill to c-bill basis, due to an XP and c-bill system being merged together.


Quote

Before, you had to pay c-bills to get modules to obtain abilities such as radar derp and seismic. But you also had to pay a little bit of XP up front to unlock for one time only, depending on the module. It was a minimal amount of XP, nothing huge.

In the new system, we're given automatically all the XP (SP) we need to obtain all the abilities AND modules... for free. No c-bills. And we have all sorts of new abilities to pick and choose from, too.


For someone who doesn't like being called ignorant, you sure do spend a lot of time begging to be called it.

It isn't free for everyone. It's free for you because you aren't being required to sell back some of your current C-bill purchases. Others, like me, are faced with choosing between sacrificing all of our early module purchases for a resource that is literally of no value (massive GSP) or sell the modules back at a 50% markdown.

It's not that the new system doesn't benefit us, it's that we are being required to pay for those benefits while your hissy fit throwing rear doesn't.

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Once we're out of SP, we spend c-bills and XP to get SP, but for most, that won't be for a very long time, if ever again.

We win.


Some of us have already done the grind to earn those C-bills. We are being required to sacrifice 50% of them.

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that someone who owns hundreds of modules has already put in huge numbers of hours grinding C-bills? Your hours of grinding went into mechs/engines/upgrades/weapons but you aren't being required to sell any of it as we go into the new system.

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In the past, folks who spent disposable income on extra modules were accepting opportunity cost. The expenditure satisfied their desire to save time from swapping in order to simply click play. These were luxury goods. They were not essential products, as swapping could afford them more c-bills in the bank at the cost of a little bit of their time. So over the course of owning these modules, they enjoyed this advantage that they paid for.


Then why did you cry so hard at the first iteration? You were using the module swapping mechanic. It was a luxury good. It was not essential. You enjoyed that advantage. You should be willing to accept only 72 MSP on your mastered-modules mechs in the switch over. The other 19 nodes will cost you C-bills. That's the cost of that swapping luxury for you.

That is in fact what the first iteration was. Swapping module luxury was finally being paid for. You threw a fit.

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Now they get to keep the modules, like they had before -and- get half their money back.

How many stores can you walk into and say, "Yo, can I have my money back for this?" and they reply, "Sure, here's half, oh, and you can just keep the product. Enjoy." How many let you do this?

None.


The problem is that you are walking into the store right by our side and asking the clerk if you can have the same item off the shelf for free, and being told yes.

It's not that module buyers are losing some C-bills, it's that you cry babies are not having to pay the equivalent cost in order to enjoy the same benefit of owning modules for every single mech.

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This is essentially what is happening now. We all get modules for free. Why should we get a full refund for keeping the product?


Because we already paid for them and you didn't. It's not that we are being cheated, it's that we are being treated differently. The whined about "unfairness" in the first iteration was only imaginary. This one is measurable.

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We shouldn't. So instead, PGI compromised, and gave us SP which means we never have to grind again, or for a very long time, we no longer have to buy three of each chassis, no longer have to spend millions on modules or re-speccing our already mastered robits.

What they have done is fair and reasonable.


And the whiny cry babies like you will get benefits that you never earned. Your mechs in your hangar are not master+modules. Mine really are. If everyone gets this benefit, what have I earned with all the time I spent grinding to afford all those modules? Either you should have to sell back all of your C-bill, master-module mechs or I should be compensated for the full price of my modules. Those two choices would treat both of us the same. But, you will go on pretending that it is others who just can't see "the truth" of the situation.

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So color me ignorant? I have looked at all the facts and evidence. I'm anything but. I am enlightened.

Please don't toss around dangerous vocabulary until you understand exactly what it means. Have a nice day!


You looked at the facts and came up with master+modules is of the same value as master-modules? Enlightened is hardly the word I would choose. Deluded seems more apt.

#175 Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:30 AM

View Postmetallio, on 28 April 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:


You...You're serious? Your whole issue is that some people are going to get back more than you and you don't want them to? I can't believe that's right...

"It's not fair!" when everyone is getting tons of sh3t back to play with? FFS people...I'm even a proponent of giving you frikkin' cbills for your modules if you want them but you really sound like a childish **** in that statement.



Not to put words in vandal's mouth, but if you had bothered to read the thread, you might realize that what he is saying is that he is fine with the ST moving forward, he just wants the so called 'cheapskates' to acknowledge the fact that they are being given millions and millions of cbills in the form of HSP to remaster their mechs, while the 'hoarders' are losing out on millions because they can not possibly ever meaningfully use all the GSP.

This Skill tree still costs cbills and xp. PGI is giving vouchers for both in the form of HSP to every player for every allocated skill they had in the old system. But PGI is now taking the cbill investment of modules and turning it into coupons. Coupons that are only good for what they are already giving everyone for free in the form of HSP. Surely you can see how this effect would vary greatly on a case by case basis. For some it is great, very beneficial. For others, the law of diminishing returns makes it all but worthless.

One side is happy with this, the other side is not asking to change the system, they are only asking to be able to sell the excessive GSP they will have.

And the only two rational arguments that can be put forth as being against this is saying that all those cbills will somehow ruin the in game economy or that the future c-billionaires will stop spending real money because of it. But the latter ignores the fact that in order to buy a mech with cbills, you have to have a mech bay and mech bays cost MC, Which can only be earned in small amounts in game or... purchased with real money.And the Former assumes that there is some actual in game economy to ruin.

Edited by Jaybles, 28 April 2017 - 08:01 AM.


#176 vandalhooch

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:36 AM

View PostJaybles, on 28 April 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:



Not to put words in vandal's mouth,


Naw. You did it pretty dang well in my opinion.

#177 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:41 AM

View PostJaybles, on 28 April 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

the 'hoarders' are losing out on millions because they can not possibly ever use all the GSP.

Technically we could probably use all the GSP to unlock every node on every mech we own, but not only is that tedious but it isn't really near as useful as c-bills or the current modules.

#178 Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:53 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 April 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Technically we could probably use all the GSP to unlock every node on every mech we own, but not only is that tedious but it isn't really near as useful as c-bills or the current modules.


Should I change it to 'they can not ever meaningfully use'?

I'm not sure how beneficial Gauss and UAC quirks would be on my non hero grasshoppers or jump jet quirks on my black knights, but who knows, maybe one day I might want to try them out.

#179 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:56 AM

View PostJaybles, on 28 April 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

Should I change it to 'they can not ever meaningfully use'?

It would be more correct, technically.

View PostJaybles, on 28 April 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'm not sure how beneficial Gauss and UAC quirks would be on my non hero grasshoppers or jump jet quirks on my black knights, but who knows, maybe one day I might want to try them out.

Interestingly, you can't unlock the JJ quirks on your Black Knight (they are locked), Gauss and UAC quirks however you could unlock (which is yet another reason the skill web is silly right now).

#180 Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 08:00 AM

I didn't realize they were locked, as I hadn't actually tried it Posted Image, But I suppose that means not every mech actually has 242 unlock-able nodes.





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