46 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 April 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

I too liked the placement of the seismic and radar derp skills. You can get full seismic and 60 percent of the old Radar Dep with just 12 points.

You need to show me which path you chose because I personally can't get full Seismic + 60% Raderp with just 12 points.

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 April 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

And the consumable tree can be ignored if you want, as a single point is enough to bring you back up to two slots, while a mere 4 can get you a second UAV. I havent looked at it closer than that, however.

You will need about 13 points to possess all 5 consumable slots, but on the way you can get some good bonuses fro those consumables such as UAV range and 50% more shells per strike. The tree could be more useful than it appears.

[VanillaG]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

Yeah this is where I came to a bit of concern, the speed tweak tree also incorporates heat management, both of which are so massively important for all gameplay this tree kind of wildly outweighs the others, especially considering how little you need to put into it comparatively.

They might benefit from breaking up that tree and spreading it across the trees where they should apply, I.E. speed tweak in mobility, stability boost in defensive, etc etc.

Speed Tweak in already in the Mobility tree. The only mobilty related items in the Operations tree, which contains the heat management nodes, deal with speed while legged and hill climb. I found that if you take enough heat gen nodes in the weapons tree you don't need to max out cool run since the only way you generate heat is by firing weapons.

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 27 April 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

You will need about 13 points to possess all 5 consumable slots, but on the way you can get some good bonuses fro those consumables such as UAV range and 50% more shells per strike. The tree could be more useful than it appears.

I don't know how I feel about the new consumable potentials, at first glance it seems they are so much more than they were, it does seem like unlocking all of the slots would provide substantial tactical advantage over someone who didn't.

Did anyone else notice the tree branches don't always connect up properly either? It seems like some nodes that should get unlocked by previous ones just don't, or the tree doesn't unlock upward, is this just new system issues or part of how they are balanced to force other picks?

VanillaG, on 27 April 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Speed Tweak in already in the Mobility tree. The only mobilty related items in the Operations tree, which contains the heat management nodes, deal with speed while legged and hill climb. I found that if you take enough heat gen nodes in the weapons tree you don't need to max out cool run since the only way you generate heat is by firing weapons.

So wait there are 2 speed tweaks? There was most definitely a way to give yourself +7.5% move speed in the system tree (with the heat dissipation, reduced screen shake bonuses), I didn't see speed tweak in mobility or possibly didnt notice as I just maxed it out.

[Jables McBarty]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

So wait there are 2 speed tweaks? There was most definitely a way to give yourself +7.5% move speed in the system tree (with the heat dissipation, reduced screen shake bonuses), I didn't see speed tweak in mobility or possibly didnt notice as I just maxed it out.

There* is "Speed Retention +10%" 1-3 in the Operations Tree, as well as "Quick Ignition +7%" 1-5.

*This is according to the pictures in the announcement, not the actual PTS.

[VanillaG]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

So wait there are 2 speed tweaks? There was most definitely a way to give yourself +7.5% move speed in the system tree (with the heat dissipation, reduced screen shake bonuses), I didn't see speed tweak in mobility or possibly didnt notice as I just maxed it out.

Mobility Tree contains Speed Tweak which increases mech top speed and is at the bottom of the tree. Operations contains Speed Retention which increases mech speed after being legged and it capped to a total mech speed of 50 km/h. Operations also contains the infamous Hill Climb which decreases decel on slopes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

I downloaded the pts client to test out the tree (then deleted it as it somehow took up 33gb), and I had some fun testing out the possibilities available.

I came to the conclusion that a combination of the mobility, defensive, consumables and system (the one that gives the speed buff/heat dissipation etc) trees, seem to be the best usage when it comes to heavier/slower classes. The tree that grants speed buffs (system?) and the consumables tree in particular seems incredibly important for all.

I also like the "nerf" to radar dep in general too, it seems much more balanced to have it work at different potential levels like that, but with that said it makes seismic sensors all the stronger by comparison, though the new placement of these old modules seems much more balanced overall in the trees.

I would think the weapons buffs would go better on smaller, high damage/dps types, but those mobility and defensive trees are really hard to go by as an assault, and I am sure for some lights too, the main attraction for me that I couldn't access in the weapons tree was the heat related buffs, it seems there are lots of ways to reduce heat values now in general.

So what did you guys find through testing?

I like that the use of the weapons and sensor trees can be very intermingled. My Catapults benefited massively by focusing there, whereas tbh the armor and mobility only gave middling returns, in comparison, at least for that chassis. Yet I found other chassis did benefit heavily from focusing on armor and mobility. Operations is still pretty mandatory, IMO to load up at least 3/4 on, but the rest, just as with the last PTS on it, I believe people will find the choices less monolithic with testing, than they did on the surface.

Not going to say it makes LRMs comp, or will necessarily shift the Meta, but go try your catapult in testing ground stock, then max out the laser and missile weapons tree, and the sensor stuff and test it again. Massive improvement in exposure due to changes in lock time, missile velocity, cooldowns, etc.

Hopefully I'll get to test some more tonight

[Cy Mitchell]

Gorantir, on 27 April 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

i dont PTS since i got an email in beta saying test the clan mechs, but you couldnt unless you preordered but im a d_ck )

im psyched to lower lbx spread tho.

my concern is more how the new skill tree might hurt the new player experience vs skill-treed players, maybe trial mechs should have the old quirks or some kind of boost.

Well, new players were at a huge disadvantage under the old tree and module system too. At least with the new system they can start getting incremental improvements to performance much earlier because the cost is spread out much more than it was previously. They can invest in SP as they go instead of having to save up for 21,500 XP and 2000 GXP plus 9 Million C-Bills for a Radar Derp module and a weapon module.

I have also seen the argument that the ST is too complicated for the new player. While it is a bit overwhelming for an old guy like me, this still makes me chuckle a bit. Most new players are going to be gamers that have years of experience with MMOs or RPGs on both PCs and consoles. These are the people who have never read a game instruction manual in their life and just pick up the game and go. They have dealt with things like skill trees since before they liked the other sex. They may adapt to the new skill tree faster than a lot of us old vets.

[Too Much Love]

Important:
I noticed that if you forget to master your mech, although you have enough XP to do that, they will not give you SP.

I tried my Summoner, that has 100k XP, and found out they they gave me only 51 SP or so. It appeared, that I forgot to master it:)

Be aware!

[Shifty McSwift]

VanillaG, on 27 April 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Mobility Tree contains Speed Tweak which increases mech top speed and is at the bottom of the tree. Operations contains Speed Retention which increases mech speed after being legged and it capped to a total mech speed of 50 km/h. Operations also contains the infamous Hill Climb which decreases decel on slopes.

Jables McBarty, on 27 April 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

There* is "Speed Retention +10%" 1-3 in the Operations Tree, as well as "Quick Ignition +7%" 1-5.

*This is according to the pictures in the announcement, not the actual PTS.

I see, guys I think they switched the positions of speed retention and speed tweak, speed tweak was definitely at the bottom of the operations (sorry forgot names) now.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 April 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

I like that the use of the weapons and sensor trees can be very intermingled. My Catapults benefited massively by focusing there, whereas tbh the armor and mobility only gave middling returns, in comparison, at least for that chassis. Yet I found other chassis did benefit heavily from focusing on armor and mobility. Operations is still pretty mandatory, IMO to load up at least 3/4 on, but the rest, just as with the last PTS on it, I believe people will find the choices less monolithic with testing, than they did on the surface.

Not going to say it makes LRMs comp, or will necessarily shift the Meta, but go try your catapult in testing ground stock, then max out the laser and missile weapons tree, and the sensor stuff and test it again. Massive improvement in exposure due to changes in lock time, missile velocity, cooldowns, etc.

Hopefully I'll get to test some more tonight

Yeah I like how it becomes a series of choices that can be wildly different for different builds, I ranked mobility in particular very highly for assaults in particular, but surely some lights mediums and even heavies wouldn't really need or notice the differences.

Rampage, on 27 April 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well, new players were at a huge disadvantage under the old tree and module system too. At least with the new system they can start getting incremental improvements to performance much earlier because the cost is spread out much more than it was previously. They can invest in SP as they go instead of having to save up for 21,500 XP and 2000 GXP plus 9 Million C-Bills for a Radar Derp module and a weapon module.

I have also seen the argument that the ST is too complicated for the new player. While it is a bit overwhelming for an old guy like me, this still makes me chuckle a bit. Most new players are going to be gamers that have years of experience with MMOs or RPGs on both PCs and consoles. These are the people who have never read a game instruction manual in their life and just pick up the game and go. They have dealt with things like skill trees since before they liked the other sex. They may adapt to the new skill tree faster than a lot of us old vets.

Agreed, I never meant to suggest that noob-vet gap didnt exist in the prior system, just that it exists.

And yeah I think the way the skill tree is set up will make it much more immediately important to new players, more so than the module system, which was arguably more important. The tree definitely has more character and is clearly important.

[J0anna]

I really don't see how this skill tree is that different from the last, but the ledger system is a large change (mostly an improvement - at least for me).

Only got a couple hours in yesterday, will attack it this weekend. I don't like the reactivation costs as I suspect many people will make mistakes as this is rather complicated. Changing mechs around has gotten much more time consuming. As last time, mechs are getting noticeably less deadly (typical weapon damage mods are reduced), and structure and mobility at still important. There is so much to try out in this.....

Edited by J0anna, 27 April 2017 - 09:11 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

J0anna, on 27 April 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

I really don't see how this skill tree is that different from the last, but the ledger system is a large change (mostly an improvement - at least for me).

Only got a couple hours in yesterday, will attack it this weekend. I don't like the reactivation costs as I suspect many people will make mistakes as this is rather complicated. Changing mechs around has gotten much more time consuming. As last time, mechs are getting noticeably less deadly (typical weapon damage mods are reduced), and structure and mobility at still important. There is so much to try out in this.....

Yeah this is one of the main reasons for this thread, to help identify the trees that are most important for all, and which specific chassis/sizes benefit most from the different options.

[Almond Brown]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 April 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Yeah, I was thinking of my Mist Lynx, mostly. I wanted to spec durability for thise arms, but I basically had to go all-in on that tree to get any value out of it for that chassis, and even that was piddly. Wasn't worth the tradeoff at all.

The Mystx has base 24 structure Quirks on some Arms and Armor on others. Did you find you could replicate that 24 points in Skills.

The reason I ask is I am Testing/Comparing a Quirks versus Skills on a Thunderbolt and am trying to confirm if a similar (current) Quirk build is doable via Skills.

The first issue I faced right off is the HUGE list of Skills (all 91 slots in play) (so many with small values) versus the uncoupled and quirked version.

[Shifty McSwift]

I guess in ways we have been spoiled for bonuses, to the point where 5 or 10% boosts are declared worthless in many cases.

[VanillaG]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

The Mystx has base 24 structure Quirks on some Arms and Armor on others. Did you find you could replicate that 24 points in Skills.

The reason I ask is I am Testing/Comparing a Quirks versus Skills on a Thunderbolt and am trying to confirm if a similar (current) Quirk build is doable via Skills.

The first issue I faced right off is the HUGE list of Skills (all 91 slots in play) (so many with small values) versus the uncoupled and quirked version.

You don't need to replicate the Armor bonuses because the are still there. The only quirks that got nerfed are some of the offensive quirks. Defensive quirks did not, mostly because they compensate for hitbox issues in making the mech look like original drawings.

[Shifty McSwift]

VanillaG, on 27 April 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

You don't need to replicate the Armor bonuses because the are still there. The only quirks that got nerfed are some of the offensive quirks. Defensive quirks did not, mostly because they compensate for hitbox issues in making the mech look like original drawings.

Yeah I think a survivability maxed atlas can have near 200 front CT armor now pretty wild.

[B0oN]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

Yeah I think a survivability maxed atlas can have near 200 front CT armor now pretty wild.

Built a BLR and a WHK ... those things are walking fortresses with about 180+ HP on the CT alone ...

#wildthangs !

[MW222]

Never was able to log in more then once before they pulled it the first time. However if the skill tree turns out NOT to add to the playability of all classes of mech's IS and Clan in equal ways it's going to fail and fail badly.

That is the one and only factor that should have any bearing on it's use.



Note: Text size is for my readability not yelling.

Edited by MW222, 27 April 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

The Mystx has base 24 structure Quirks on some Arms and Armor on others. Did you find you could replicate that 24 points in Skills.

The reason I ask is I am Testing/Comparing a Quirks versus Skills on a Thunderbolt and am trying to confirm if a similar (current) Quirk build is doable via Skills.

The first issue I faced right off is the HUGE list of Skills (all 91 slots in play) (so many with small values) versus the uncoupled and quirked version.

The MLX arms with the big +24 armor boost gained a decent 3 points, but it wasn't those arms I was trying to buff, not when they already have more armor than the damn CT. The MLX still needs more armor on the laser arms, but at three armor nodes it's one measly point and that's already a significant investment. At three armor nodes for my RFL, I was getting 3 points to each side torso and more to the CT.

Structure also doesn't really help the MLX. I was having issues with my guns being crit with open armor even before they reduced equipment health. Now it's ridiculous.

So, yeah, you will be much better served by just dumping your points into firepower, sensors, or jump jets and boosting your survivability indirectly through pilot-driven means. That's pretty universal for Lights, simply not worth it to do anything with durability.

[nitra]

Need Moar people On PTS PLEASE !!!!!

[L1f3H4ck]

nitra, on 27 April 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

Need Moar people On PTS PLEASE !!!!!

Finding a match takes forever. If you don't have a unit and don'twant to be stuck in the training grounds firing at dummies, I suggest hopping on one of the open Teamspeak or Discord servers and do private matches. There's NGNG, the faction hubs, and the big streamers/content creators have publicly available servers too.