29 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

I understand the intent of providing plenty of nodes. I applaud it. However, each skill tree in each section has far too much granularity in the amount any one node provides. This leads to node bloat, slows down just how quickly one can configure a mech, and generally gives very little incentive to take any one specific node.

For example, we have a node that gives you a whopping 0.7% Cooldown reduction. For a hypothetical example, in a 4 second cooldown weapon, you are talking about a whopping 0.028 second reduction on cooldown. Why should we care about this?

Heat Generation has 1% quirks. Sensor range is a measly 2%. Reinforced Casing is 1%. Again, why should we care about any one node, here? The individual result of any one node is worthless and just serves to bloat the system.

Instead, why not, across the board:

• cut the max number of nodes allowable by half (45?)
  
• remove half the nodes of duplicate type
  
• double the efficiency of every node that remains

The same total benefits are there, the same maximum potential for quirks exists due to the reduced cap on active nodes. Except now you have half the clutter, which is a lot easier to deal with. Not the least which towards those who have repetitive strain injury to their hands. Certainly helps the newer players who will be absolutely overloaded with node options that they don't even understand yet.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 01:16 PM.

[Mycroft000]

I don't expect to use much of the Firepower Tree for this very reason, I'm focusing on Operations, Sensors, and Survivability. I'd rather see universal weapon benefits provided by nodes in the firepower tree. For example, tie Duration and Velocity together into single nodes, encourages less boating because you're not limiting your weapon choices by what nodes you pick, you're getting universal benefits instead.

[Hawk819]

mycroft000, on 25 April 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

I don't expect to use much of the Firepower Tree for this very reason, I'm focusing on Operations, Sensors, and Survivability. I'd rather see universal weapon benefits provided by nodes in the firepower tree. For example, tie Duration and Velocity together into single nodes, encourages less boating because you're not limiting your weapon choices by what nodes you pick, you're getting universal benefits instead.

Yea. The weapons tree portion is way over the top. My suggest is:

1) Use Heat 1 to start unlocking.
2) Place a cap on all weapon nodes to the max of 6, i.e.: Heat 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and then 6.
3) Place the weapons nodes of each weapon type into a single line. Rather than jumbling them together into one huge stupid pile. This isn't necessary!
4) and finally, add more points, and/or allow us to buy more points in order to let us outfit a `Mech.

[Mycroft000]

Hawk819, on 25 April 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Yea. The weapons tree portion is way over the top. My suggest is:

1) Use Heat 1 to start unlocking.
2) Place a cap on all weapon nodes to the max of 6, i.e.: Heat 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and then 6.
3) Place the weapons nodes of each weapon type into a single line. Rather than jumbling them together into one huge stupid pile. This isn't necessary!
4) and finally, add more points, and/or allow us to buy more points in order to let us outfit a `Mech.

More points are unnecessary, we're already getting WAY more value out of most of the trees than we were before. And that even factors in the fact that I can't stand being force fed Hill Climb.

[Pariah Devalis]

mycroft000, on 25 April 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

More points are unnecessary, we're already getting WAY more value out of most of the trees than we were before. And that even factors in the fact that I can't stand being force fed Hill Climb.

Agreed. As is, we need to juggle too many points right now. It's a mess. One look at the unfilled skill tree, and a thought crosses your mind: "Is this my life now? Clicking nodes? Send help, please. And food."

Way too many nodes, with each node having too little individual impact.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Pariah Devalis, on 25 April 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Agreed. As is, we need to juggle too many points right now. It's a mess. One look at the unfilled skill tree, and a thought crosses your mind: "Is this my life now? Clicking nodes? Send help, please. And food."

Way too many nodes, with each node having too little individual impact.

It's interesting because PGI says in the write-up that they want users to feel more progression as they unlock nodes... Right now, you'll never feel any node individually because the changes are too small.

Half the SP, half the nodes with twice the impact.
I'd be way happier that way. And I'd be much less intimidating to look at.

[Mycroft000]

What they are giving us right now is something that seems "unlimited" but when you look at what really breeds creativity, limits and constraints are what cause innovation.

Things that would help people feel like their choices matter more:

Reduced nodes per mech
More impact per node
Limits on nodes/tree available to unlock
Higher costs on "better" nodes

Many are already complaining about their current mechs not being "As good as before" but what they're missing is that their opponents are being limited as well. This is not a bad thing.

[Pariah Devalis]

mycroft000, on 25 April 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Many are already complaining about their current mechs not being "As good as before" but what they're missing is that their opponents are being limited as well. This is not a bad thing.

Which is fine. A longer time to kill is ideal - though outside the scope of this particular thread.

Unfortunately, the presentation and utilization of the skill tree is a mess to deal with. Too much fluff. It reminds me of writing an essay in high school, and the professor scratching out sections of it and jotting down "unnecessary verbiage" beside it. Keeping things streamlined and simple is key for a core modification aspect of the game. By breaking up the skill tree as excessively as they have there is "unnecessary verbiage" - pointlessly excessive use of nodes that only serve to make things seem bigger and more complex than they are, but ultimately detract from the quality of the overall product.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Mycroft000]

Pariah Devalis, on 25 April 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

100% Correct.

[El Rizzo]

In addition to the points already made I would love to see the removal/severe reduction of "force fed" skillpoints you need to aquire in order to reach the one you actually want. PGI says they want more specialization but at the same time no "min-maxing" but that is kinda the idea of specialization in the first place, you sacrifice one aspect to gain a bonus in another one, by forcing us to take many unwanted skills this gets watered down.

-> Instead of multiple nodes per skill, make one node with several levels each requiring more points to unlock and don't make skillnodes dependent on others. For example: cooldown lvl 1 costs 1 skillpoint, level 2 requires 2 and so on. That way no one is forced to unlock unwanted skills but still needs an increasing investment the more he wants out of a skill.

Edited by El Rizzo, 25 April 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[Ruar]

I can't play with the skill tree in it's current form. Trying to unlock all of the range/heat/cooldown nodes for my all laser ENF leads me into missile skills. My OCD can't handle unlocking missile skills on a mech without a single missile hardpoint. I'm beyond frustrated they keep handing us this skill tree even though we have consistently demanded it be made linear without the unwanted gates.

[Scyther]

Agreed. While the current PTS setup looks better than previous, they need to address the issue of 'way too many nodes, of too little impact, on way too many mechs'. Anyone who has played for any length of time owns a dozen mechs, most people own a couple dozen, some own hundreds.

I can afford to make complicated choices in an MMO where I own 2-3 characters and spend months levelling them. I look at the current skill nodes and despite my desire to learn more, each time I see it I say "Well I will come back and look at it closely when I have a few hours to kill."

Unfortunately for MWO, I have other games that will reward my time much better than figuring out which fraction-of-a-percent node I wish to choose next, several hundred times over.

[EasyPickings]

Ruar, on 25 April 2017 - 03:42 PM, said:

I can't play with the skill tree in it's current form. Trying to unlock all of the range/heat/cooldown nodes for my all laser ENF leads me into missile skills. My OCD can't handle unlocking missile skills on a mech without a single missile hardpoint. I'm beyond frustrated they keep handing us this skill tree even though we have consistently demanded it be made linear without the unwanted gates.

You're not supposed to unlock every single one available on the tree - unless you have a multi-weapon mech (missiles, ballistics, and lasers).

The number of different places that things like heat efficiency are put is to allow those who only have a single type of weapon to unlock a reasonable amount of that item. That's why these trees are so big, so that each branch has all of the common options, like heat, range, etc.

You don't have to unlock everything to get the benefits.

[Ruar]

EasyPickings, on 26 April 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

You're not supposed to unlock every single one available on the tree - unless you have a multi-weapon mech (missiles, ballistics, and lasers).

The number of different places that things like heat efficiency are put is to allow those who only have a single type of weapon to unlock a reasonable amount of that item. That's why these trees are so big, so that each branch has all of the common options, like heat, range, etc.

You don't have to unlock everything to get the benefits.

So I'm NOT supposed to be able to customize my mech, but instead only take the dev approved options and cookie cutter like everyone else.

Got it.

[El Rizzo]

EasyPickings, on 26 April 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

You're not supposed to unlock every single one available on the tree - unless you have a multi-weapon mech (missiles, ballistics, and lasers).

But that is what you HAVE to in order to reach every node of a specific skill ... that is exactly the kind of rubbish we are criticizing, for you to obtain all cooldown skills, for example, it should not require you to also unlock skills you don't want and which are potentially useless for the current mech due to hardpoint restrictions.

EasyPickings, on 26 April 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

The number of different places that things like heat efficiency are put is to allow those who only have a single type of weapon to unlock a reasonable amount of that item. That's why these trees are so big, so that each branch has all of the common options, like heat, range, etc.

The current "tree" is an utter mess and highly convoluted, a skilltree should never force you to take skills that have no benefit to you and which you actually don't want to take in the first place. Instead of this bloated mess they could simply offer each skill in a linear fashion and for each additional node that you want to unlock you have to pay an increasing amount of points so that maxing a skill takes roughly the same amount of points it would currently take.

BAM, same amount of points needed to invest and no messy confusing giant blob of interconnected nodes that makes your eyes bleed.

EasyPickings, on 26 April 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

You don't have to unlock everything to get the benefits.

Actually you pretty much have to, because each node gives you such a ridiculously tiny stat boost that without aquiring at least a large majority of a skill it is utterly pointless to take it at all. Just look at the cooldown skill, 0,7% for each node, we are talking milliseconds of reduced cooldown for each node, only all/most added together have any tangible effect.

Edited by El Rizzo, 26 April 2017 - 04:09 PM.

[CK16]

It's a valid argument. Sadly it seems it's drowned out by all the other bitching and moaning over minor details. Ala refund or its not Solahma's God meta tree.

[The Argie]

I can not be more in agreement with everything, I play to kill robots and it is good to have to face decisions for improvements in them, but not to the point that this becomes cumbersome and pending updates that hardly impact the performance until you arrive To the best.
Keep it simple, keep it stupid if you want this to be a long way for a better robot killer. I really hope it will take a long time before they implement this.

[El Rizzo]

Quote

It's a valid argument.

What is ? I don't get which argument you are referring to (not joking here, really curious).

Quote

Ala refund or its not Solahma's God meta tree.

Solahama's skill tree is not exclusively beneficial for meta players ... everyone profits from his suggested tree, just because someone plays "meta" doesn't mean he is only concerned about his own playstyle you know . It really saddens me that "meta" has become such a dirty word for some players when it is a natural, unavoidable occurance in any multiplayer game that has ever existed and is also ever shifting.

Edited by El Rizzo, 27 April 2017 - 06:03 AM.

[Malrock]

El Rizzo, on 26 April 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

.... each node gives you such a ridiculously tiny stat boost that without aquiring at least a large majority of a skill it is utterly pointless to take it at all. Just look at the cooldown skill, 0,7% for each node, we are talking milliseconds of reduced cooldown for each node, only all/most added together have any tangible effect.

Yup exactly this. The granularity is ridiculous. you can't feel the difference in taking any single node it is only when you take a lot of the same exact type of node that you get any feeling of change. Thus their desire to make taking a node feel more impactful has actually failed miserably.

[Thrull]

If PGI want specialization they need to have firepower broken into 3 groups, Missiles, ballistics, and energy. Add nodes for each specialized by weapon type such as lasers, ppcs, pulses each with its own cooldowns, ranges, heat gen etc. I found it annoying that in order to get every last cooldown/ range buff my mech tech had to add a missile or ballistic perk to my mech with only energy hardpoints. NOT COOL.
We are all losing by removal of modules, -12% cooldown +10% range for specialized modules. And now have to dig in a tree we dont care for if we want Radar Dep or seismic sensors, purchase things we don't want, and spending out skill points that should go elsewhere instead of a having a module that just gave you the ability. All in all It feels like a net loss. My fast fire gave me 5% all around; now with SP I only top out at 9.9% when I used to get 17% with my module.

While I PGI props for "Trying" I just don't get their logic or approach. All in all it seems like a quirkening for all mechs but it feels way out of whack. Also a generic chart for all mechs may not be the best. I know it would take way more work to go through each chassis and make a chart that makes more sense but then again they signed up for it when they published the game. We are just the customer. Maybe give the chassis a pass on SP purchases if the mech lack ballistics/energy/missiles. so they can get thing they want without spending on Hard points they don't have.