62 replies to this topic

[Pr8Dator2]

... by the skill tree... It seems like every IS mech is transforming into assault tanks!



Also with the new RACs and lighter engines etc... it makes sense for IS quirks to be removed or at least lessened as technology closes the gap between the two factions. In fact, as technology gap closes in, the drop deck difference between clan and IS should also even out.

Edited by Pr8Dator2, 01 May 2017 - 12:18 AM.

[dimachaerus]

Pr8Dator2, on 01 May 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

... by the skill tree... It seems like every IS mech is transforming into assault tanks!

And? Doesn't matter if your ability to return fire goes to hell, just means more Xp/C-bills for Clan equipped enemies to farm in terms of damage numbers at the end of the match.

Seriously, removing the quirks they are, is going to kill most I.S. mechs in any sort of competitive sense. I'm still going to drive them because "Hell yeah, hard mode, eat it clanscum!" but I expect there will be a bit of a forum storm if they go ahead with the quirk removals.

[Zergling]

Yeah, except Clan mechs can take the same Survival Tree skill nodes too, and many of them already have armor/structure quirks comparable to those IS mechs with strong armor/structure quirks.

Eg, Ice Ferret, Linebacker, Orion IIC, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Highlander IIC, Supernova and some Kodiaks.

And I predict the Cougar will get some decent armor/structure quirks to compensate for how slow it is.

Edited by Zergling, 01 May 2017 - 12:19 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Yes, because only IS gets access to the skill tree and clans get nothing at all...

Bloody hell...

[Pr8Dator2]

dimachaerus, on 01 May 2017 - 12:10 AM, said:

And? Doesn't matter if your ability to return fire goes to hell, just means more Xp/C-bills for Clan equipped enemies to farm in terms of damage numbers at the end of the match.

Seriously, removing the quirks they are, is going to kill most I.S. mechs in any sort of competitive sense. I'm still going to drive them because "Hell yeah, hard mode, eat it clanscum!" but I expect there will be a bit of a forum storm if they go ahead with the quirk removals.

Your ability to return fire isn't going to hell at all! IS is getting a whole bunch of weapons that is going to close up the tech gap and they still have the BEST autocannons in the game, what you talking about??

Juodas Varnas, on 01 May 2017 - 12:18 AM, said:

Yes, because only IS gets access to the skill tree and clans get nothing at all...

Bloody hell...

Did you even watch the video?? See the HUGE difference in armor boost between IS and clan in the video!

[Khobai]

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Did you even watch the video?? See the HUGE difference in armor boost between IS and clan in the video!

Its because quirks also get multiplied by the armor/structure skill nodes.

So if you have a +31 CT structure quirk, and +25% structure from skill nodes, that +31 quirk just became a +39 quirk

Quote

Yes, because only IS gets access to the skill tree and clans get nothing at all...

Bloody hell...

IS get access to more armor/structure quirks than Clans though. And like I said above those quirks get further multiplied by the skill tree.

So IS mechs with armor/structure quirks will be considerably tankier than Clan mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2017 - 12:25 AM.

[drifter bob]

4 words "ballistic quirks on kodiak"

[Khobai]

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4 words "ballistic quirks on kodiak"

uac kodiak really wont be that threatening though

because the new skill tree is only gonna give you a fraction of the cooldown skill it used to.

right now it gives -17% between fast fire and cooldown module, on the PTR it was only like -3.5%... because the other cooldown nodes were all walled behind nodes that werent worth paying points for.

between the considerable armor/structure bonuses and the reduction of cooldown bonuses, dps weapons like UACs are going to be considerably weakened, while PPFLD weapons like gauss/ppc are going to be much stronger.

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2017 - 12:35 AM.

[Zergling]

Pr8Dator2, on 01 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

Did you even watch the video?? See the HUGE difference in armor boost between IS and clan in the video!

Skimmed through the video, Clan mechs weren't looked at or discussed once.

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

IS get access to more armor/structure quirks than Clans though. And like I said above those quirks get further multiplied by the skill tree.

So IS mechs with armor/structure quirks will be considerably tankier than Clan mechs.

Yet there are IS mechs without any armor/structure quirks, and a bunch of Clan mechs with strong armor/structure quirks of their own.

IS mechs without any armor/structure quirks: Firestarter, Rifleman -3N, Stalker, Banshee.
IS mechs with negligible armor/structure quirks: most Locust, most Jenner, Raven -3L, most Enforcer, most Griffin, Wolverine, Rifleman -5D, most Battlemaster, King Crab.

Clan mechs with significant armor/structure quirks: Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Mad Dog, Linebacker, Summoner, Orion IIC, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Highlander IIC, Supernova, some Kodiaks.


Further, IS mechs with those quirks are receiving exactly the same percentage increase in hitpoints as a Clan mech taking the same Survival Tree skill nodes.
All this results in is a flat increase in durability across the board, that doesn't favour either faction.

Edited by Zergling, 01 May 2017 - 12:50 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

and a bunch of Clan mechs with strong armor/structure quirks of their own.

not really. theres almost no clan mechs with "strong" armor/structure quirks.

Quote

Clan mechs with significant armor/structure quirks: Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Mad Dog, Linebacker, Summoner, Orion IIC, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Highlander IIC, Supernova, some Kodiaks.

Yeah except none of those are really strong armor quirks. A lot of those mechs dont even get extra CT armor/structure.

Or the Kodiak... it has a couple variants that get +15 structure to one single location. Thats not even close to being a strong quirk. Its only one location.

Theyre mediocre quirks at best compared to what IS mechs like the Atlas get. Atlas gets like +25-30 to every single location. IS quirks armor/structure quirks are way better than what Clans get. period.

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[Pr8Dator2]

Zergling, on 01 May 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

Skimmed through the video, Clan mechs weren't looked at or discussed once.




Yet there are IS mechs without any armor/structure quirks, and a bunch of Clan mechs with strong armor/structure quirks of their own.

IS mechs without any armor/structure quirks: Firestarter, Rifleman -3N, Stalker, Banshee.
IS mechs with negligible armor/structure quirks: most Locust, most Jenner, Raven -3L, most Enforcer, most Griffin, Wolverine, Rifleman -5D, most Battlemaster, King Crab.

Clan mechs with significant armor/structure quirks: Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Mad Dog, Linebacker, Summoner, Orion IIC, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Highlander IIC, Supernova, some Kodiaks.


Further, IS mechs with those quirks are receiving exactly the same percentage increase in hitpoints as a Clan mech taking the same Survival Tree skill nodes.
All this results in is a flat increase in durability across the board, that doesn't favour either faction.

Zergling, on 01 May 2017 - 12:44 AM, said:

Skimmed through the video, Clan mechs weren't looked at or discussed once.




Yet there are IS mechs without any armor/structure quirks, and a bunch of Clan mechs with strong armor/structure quirks of their own.

IS mechs without any armor/structure quirks: Firestarter, Rifleman -3N, Stalker, Banshee.
IS mechs with negligible armor/structure quirks: most Locust, most Jenner, Raven -3L, most Enforcer, most Griffin, Wolverine, Rifleman -5D, most Battlemaster, King Crab.

Clan mechs with significant armor/structure quirks: Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, Ice Ferret, Mad Dog, Linebacker, Summoner, Orion IIC, Gargoyle, Warhawk, Highlander IIC, Supernova, some Kodiaks.


Further, IS mechs with those quirks are receiving exactly the same percentage increase in hitpoints as a Clan mech taking the same Survival Tree skill nodes.
All this results in is a flat increase in durability across the board, that doesn't favour either faction.

You're a clanner, why are you even complaining? LOL!

[Jay Leon Hart]

I'll trade IS Armour & Structure quirks for Clan XL engines - deal?

[Khobai]

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I'll trade IS Armour & Structure quirks for Clan XL engines - deal?

Except youre getting LFE. LFE+Armor/Structure Quirks is gonna be more survivable than Clan XL

because youll be able to survive two side torso losses but with more armor/structure from quirks

[drifter bob]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

uac kodiak really wont be that threatening though

because the new skill tree is only gonna give you a fraction of the cooldown skill it used to.

right now it gives -17% between fast fire and cooldown module, on the PTR it was only like -3.5%... because the other cooldown nodes were all walled behind nodes that werent worth paying points for.

between the considerable armor/structure bonuses and the reduction of cooldown bonuses, dps weapons like UACs are going to be considerably weakened, while PPFLD weapons like gauss/ppc are going to be much stronger.

hmm thats a bit of a difference i also looked at the tree on snuggles pts vid looks like the uac jam chance quirk is pretty low too

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

not really. theres almost no clan mechs with "strong" armor/structure quirks.

Mist Lynx: +10 LT/RT structure, +24 LA/RA armor, +12 LL/RL structure
Kit Fox: +10 LT/RT structure, +20 LA/RA armor, +14 LL/RL structure
Adder: +12 LT/RT structure, +6 LA/RA structure, +16 LL/RL structure
Ice Ferret: +11 RT/LT structure, +14 LA/RA structure, +11 LL/RL structure
Mad Dog: +7 to +21 LT/RT structure
Linebacker: +11 CT armor, +11 LT/RT armor, +8 LA/RA armor, +15 LL/RL structure
Summoner: +11 CT structure, +11 LT/RT structure, +11 LA/RA structure, +15 LL/RL structure
Orion IIC: +12 CT armor, +12 LT/RT armor, +6 LA/RA armor, +8 LL/RL armor
Gargoyle: +12 CT structure, +17 LT/RT structure, +26 LA/RA armor, +8 LL/RL structure
Warhawk: +11 CT structure, +18 LT/RT structure, +21 LA/RA structure, +9 LL/RL structure
Highlander IIC: +15 CT structure, +10 LT/RT structure, +8 LA/RA armor, +10 LL/RL structure
Supernova: +10 CT structure, +10 LT/RT structure, +8 LA/RA armor, +10 LL/RL structure
KDK-2, KDK-4, Spirit Bear: +15 CT structure, +5 LT/RT structure, +10 LA/RA structure, +10 LL/RL structure

Mad Dog is arguable, as it has to sacrifice all torso missile hardpoints to gain +21 LT/RT, but that will be more viable in August when it gains another 3E energy arm, allowing it to boat 3 energy weapons in each arm (eg, cookie cutter clan laser vomit of 2x Large Pulse + 4x ER Medium).

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Yeah except none of those are really strong armor quirks. A lot of those mechs dont even get extra CT armor/structure.

Or the Kodiak... it has a couple variants that get +15 structure to one single location. Thats not even close to being a strong quirk. Its only one location.

Theyre mediocre quirks at best compared to what IS mechs like the Atlas get. Atlas gets like +25-30 to every single location. IS quirks armor/structure quirks are way better than what Clans get. period.

Only a handful of mechs like the Atlas get armor/structure quirks anywhere near that strong.

The vast majority of IS mechs have quirks comparable or worse to those listed above for Clan mechs.

Pr8Dator2, on 01 May 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

You're a clanner, why are you even complaining? LOL!

Because I prefer a balanced game. Why? Because such a balanced game has far greater variety, reducing boredom.


Aside from that, the claim that IS benefits more from the survival tree really isn't true.

Eg, compare the AS7-D Atlas to the Dire Wolf, both 100 ton mechs.
Dire Wolf has 62 CT structure and 124 CT armor, for 186 total CT hit points.
Atlas has 62 CT structure and 155 CT armor, for 217 total CT hit points.

As such, the Atlas -D has 31 hitpoints more than the Dire Wolf, or 16.67% advantage.

If both mechs max out the armor/structure skill nodes in the Survival Tree, they both gain +25% structure and +10% armor.

Dire Wolf goes from 62 CT structure to 77.5, and 124 CT armor to 136.4, for a total of 213.9 hit points, a 15% gain.
Atlas goes from 62 CT structure to 77.5, and from 155 CT armor to 170.5, for a total of 248 hit points, a 14.29% gain.

As a result, the Atlas -D has 34.1 more hit points than the Dire Wolf, or 15.94% advantage. It's percentage advantage in CT hit points has actually gone down.

Edited by Zergling, 01 May 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 01:12 AM, said:

Except youre getting LFE. LFE+Armor/Structure Quirks is gonna be more survivable than Clan XL

because youll be able to survive two side torso losses but with more armor/structure from quirks

HAHAHA! Yeah, no. That doesn't come close with the loss in tonnage.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 01 May 2017 - 01:17 AM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 01:12 AM, said:

Except youre getting LFE. LFE+Armor/Structure Quirks is gonna be more survivable than Clan XL

because youll be able to survive two side torso losses but with more armor/structure from quirks

Not even close. CXL saves tonnage so well so I can kill better.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 May 2017 - 01:37 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Not even close. CXL saves tonnage so well so I can kill better.

but LFE probably wont have penalties like CXL

so it will be pretty close. clan endo vs IS endo will be far more unbalanced at that point than CXL vs LFE

Quote

HAHAHA! Yeah, no. That doesn't come close with the loss in tonnage.

except it does if LFE has no penalties. because as soon as the clan mech loses a side torso the LFE will be vastly superior.

were only talking about a 4 ton difference or so anyway. id gladly pay 4 tons for CXL to not have penalties when I lose a side torso.

it will be very close. close enough that it will no longer be the biggest imbalancing factor between IS and Clan.

Clan endo vs IS endo will be far more unbalancing then. The 7 crit slot difference will be a much bigger deal than the 4 ton difference CXL vs LFE makes

Edited by Khobai, 01 May 2017 - 01:48 AM.

[Pr8Dator2]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 01:12 AM, said:

Except youre getting LFE. LFE+Armor/Structure Quirks is gonna be more survivable than Clan XL

because youll be able to survive two side torso losses but with more armor/structure from quirks

EXACTLY! IS is going to be a bunch of tanks! I gonna think twice brawling one of them.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 01 May 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

but LFE probably wont have penalties like CXL

so it will be pretty close. clan endo vs IS endo will be far more unbalanced at that point than CXL vs LFE



except it does if LFE has no penalties. because as soon as the clan mech loses a side torso the LFE will be vastly superior.

I'll still take the swap - you can have the "vastly superior" crippled 'mech, I'll take the vastly superior for the rest of the match 'mech.