140 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Have you actually seriously tried to use it?

I mean it. Who's actually tried to use it? As though you were seriously trying to build a mech.

So to get the mobility stuff back from the skill tree I have to spend 61 pts to get 50 pts of quirks I need. I don't want to buy the hill climb module. I never did. Why am I forced to? And the gyro module? I can't get useful **** without wasting 11 SP.

Weapons are even worse. While I can avoid ever having to buy a gauss charge up, LBX spread or UAC Jam quirk if I don't want them it's impossible to get the range, cooldown and heat gen quirks without buying laser quirks. Also 2 ammo capacity quirks - for a mech with no ballistic or missile points.

So you have to utterly waste 22 skill points to get useful quirks. It's not possible, literally and mechanically, to get back what you lost in the skill tree with 91SP. To get 84 pts of what would be useful I have to spend 106.

Specifically because you've got to get 22 pts worth of **** you don't need or likely want. That possibly has no actual use on your mech.

With modules at least I can just get what I want.

**** it. I'd rather stick with what we have. I've given this criticism every single time. I'm more than willing to go with **** all whatever on the refund to get there. I want a skill tree ...

but I abso -****ing-lutely hate, despise and would quit playing the game over intentionally stupid stuff like this. If SP cost not just XP but cbills then the intentionally making me throw some away, be unable to build the skill tree in a way I find value in, because some total ***hole somewhere thinks it's funny to make people buy something of absolutely no use at all what so ever to get something of critical use, that's something that will irritate me every single time I go to skill a mech.

Stop it PGI. ******* STOP IT.

Not kidding. Tina, I hope you're reading and collecting this. The next time there's a meeting to discuss the skill tree and changes, please take a dish rag and soak it in water. Twist it up and whenever someone says this is a good idea or tries to justify it, please say 'Well, the general player opinion on that was' and then out of nowhere, WHAP! Right across the face with a wet rag.

I want to love the skill tree, I want to be onboard with the new changes. I'm game with the skill tree being an overall nerf, I'm game with it adding another money sink. Christ, I buy 99% of my mechs with cash. I want to feel good about doing so.

That aspect of the change however doesn't make me feel good. It irritates me greatly. See how the ballistic side of the weapons skill tree has gauss charge up, LBX and UAC jam chance reduction? See how I can get all the useful, general weapon quirks without touching them?

Mobility, operations and the left side of the firepower skill tree need to be the same. If I need laser quirks I'll get them. If I need missile quirks I'll get them. If I decide I want to utterly waste some SP, I'll get hill climb and gyro quirks and arm pitch quirks. However general quirks and useful quirks hidden behind worthless quirks when we're only allowed X quirks on a mech?

That sucks. A lot. Even on the PTS I've run out of patience for having to even look at it while just skilling up 2 of my 140+ mechs.

Kill it with fire.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

I feel the same way after I tried it, for different reasons. I like the idea of customization for myself, but honestly PGI has trouble balancing mechs that have different hardpoints. Imagine PGI trying to balance skill trees with 242 nodes for unbalanced mechs.

I am all for new features, but it's so game breaking that I'm just good sticking with quirks for now.

As a note, a skill tree should be more simplified, with a few nodes, like the ones Blizzard has introduced where every X amount of skill points, you get to choose between 3 skills or something, up to a total of like 5-10 skills per mech.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 28 April 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Mystere]

Which is why I am pretty much bewildered that, of all things, people are raging about compensation.

[Shifty McSwift]

Fair enough, I didn't really mind it that much personally.

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

So you have to utterly waste

Is it really an utter waste if you are getting to those skill hidden behind them? An utter waste would be not spending your SP out of spite.

[FupDup]

Basically, PGI really needs to get it out of their heads that they need to nerf existing quirks and base stats to "compensate" for the skill tree's buffs.

They also need to ditch their fixation on the tangled web mess structure. The whole thing could be so much more "lean" and smooth to navigate if our SP pool was cut in half and the number of nodes was cut in half, with each node giving twice the value. Same mathematic end result (e.g. 1/2 is the same as 3/6) but without nearly as much clutter.

And then there's the "forced" skills like Hill Climb, AMS Overload, Arm Pitch, etc. that can't benefit your mech no matter how you build it. If they're so damn affraid of certain skills being never used or always used, they should just adjust the strength of the nodes, the cost of the nodes, rework the functionality (e.g. Hill Climb needs to reduce your minimum slowdown angle instead of deceleration), or even just remove it outright if it can't be saved.

This whole affair is kind of sad because the first time they ran this PTS, they actually did a good job of listening to feedback and changing stuff. But then after the second iteration of the first PTS, they completely stopped listening and went back to their usual "we know better than you" approach.

I had legit hope during the first PTS, but as the saying goes, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." The skill tree 1.0 is not a bad concept on its own merits, the problem is that PGI is just so insistent on doing things in strange and counter-intuitive ways. It has the potential to be fairly decent, but PGI is intent on keeping it mediocre™.

Edited by FupDup, 28 April 2017 - 12:28 PM.

[Ultimax]

I'm in, well maybe not the same boat, but similar.

I'm OK with change.

I'm OK with a new skill tree.

I can stand a bit of nerfing, even if I'm not happy about it if there is some tangibly improved gameplay afterwards.

I've made peace with the GSP payout and the half value I will get for selling my modules before the patch (which I will do).


The skill tree is just not well designed.

Overly complex, too many nodes, too small bonuses, too many "tax" choices that force you to buy things you don't want (unlike a game like PoE where those tax nodes are universally useful to all builds).


This is what I would like from a new skill tree: https://www.reddit.c...ockup_proposal/


Clean, easy to read, allows for PGI to have granular control over individual mech firepower DIRECTLY THROUGH THE SKILL TREE and it does not promote boating over mixed loadouts (as someone who is perfectly comfortable and enjoys running boats).

The current layout is not fun to use, its a chore - menus like this shouldn't be a CHORE they should be fun.

When I play games like SWTOR, or Diablo, or PoE, or any game with a skill tree - those skill trees are FUN - I can't wait to get skill points and take new skills.

This skill tree is something I can't wait to get over with, unlike THE REST OF THE MECHLAB WHICH IS PURE JOY - this is a frustrating task that makes me feel like my choices are not all mine and when it's done I also accepted a 20% or more performance nerf along with all the taxes.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 April 2017 - 11:31 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 28 April 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Which is why I am pretty much bewildered that, of all things, people are raging about compensation.

They aren't just raging about it, that just happens to be the only thing other people are contesting.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 April 2017 - 11:20 AM.

[FireStoat]

If the forum slugs screaming "stop being against the tree - we need change in a stagnant game!" actually downloaded the thing and spent a full hour with it, we'd be seeing a much different set of views on this board.

91 clicks for each mech is outrageous. There is no reason for so many "meh" skill choices to be included. Make those skills automatically unlocked after different thresholds of choices are made and streamline the tree and reduce skill points. Or something.

A cost to respec a mech when the system has a design goal of "encouraging player experimentation and build variety" is flawed.

Inner Sphere mechs like the Centurion which are respectable at best are getting gut punched with quirk nerfs.

The refund of modules to GSP for players who don't WANT a buffer of 200+ mechs they could skill up 'for free' in the future is robbery. They are not wrong to simply want the ability to sell off a portion of their modules for full Cbills.

PGI needs to face these issues.

[fat4eyes]

The 'useless' nodes are there to increase the cost of the more useful nodes. In an alternative system, each level of speed tweak would cost 2 sp instead of one. The pts tree makes you spend 2 sp for speed tweak, but you get some other benefits along the way (in addition to speed tweak). Note the numbers are just an example, it's probably closer to 3 sp per level of speed tweak in the pts. Don't think of the 'useless' nodes as unnecessary spending, but a bonus you get on the way to the more useful nodes.

Edited by fat4eyes, 28 April 2017 - 11:25 AM.

[FupDup]

fat4eyes, on 28 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

The 'useless' nodes are there to increase the cost of the more useful nodes. In an alternative system, each level of speed tweak would cost 2 sp instead of one. The pts tree makes you spend 2 sp for speed tweak, but you get some other benefits along the way (in addition to speed tweak). Note the numbers are just an example, it's probably closer to 3 sp per level of speed tweak in the pts. Don't think of the 'useless' nodes as unnecessary spending, but a bonus you get on the way to the more useful nodes.

Directly increasing the SP cost of good nodes in exchange for removing objectively bad nodes like Hill Climb would make the system a lot cleaner and less of a hassle to use.

[MechaBattler]

They want it to be a big messy grind. They want to fool new players into thinking that it's a kind of progression system. That's why they won't lower the points. And they know players won't know which skills are 'useless', besides they don't want to throw those away when they can reuse them. It's not like they're not trying to make it a give and take tree. It's just not done in an elegant fashion.

I personally don't have a problem with it. But I can see their intent. It could be better without completely changing what they want. But that would involve more time and work being put back into it. They've got maybe 2 weeks before the next patch. So they won't likely bother now. Not if they want to meet their own deadline. But they could push it back.

Personally I would rather just have it already.

Edited by MechaBattler, 28 April 2017 - 11:30 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FireStoat, on 28 April 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

91 clicks for each mech is outrageous.

I only lasted 30 minutes before I said "Nope"

[ScrapIron Prime]

I like the skill tree. But i agree that its too cumbersome. Cut the nodes and the SP by half or more as previously mentioned , and the whole system becomes more usable.

The nerfs to various inner sphere mechs make me leery as well, but those can be addressed with a new quirk pass or two.

[fat4eyes]

FupDup, on 28 April 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Directly increasing the SP cost of good nodes in exchange for removing objectively bad nodes like Hill Climb would make the system a lot cleaner and less of a hassle to use.

True, it would be cleaner, but we'd lose out on the extra benefits. And there's the matter of having leftover sp if you have too many nodes that cost more than 1 sp.

[VanillaG]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

So to get the mobility stuff back from the skill tree I have to spend 61 pts to get 50 pts of quirks I need. I don't want to buy the hill climb module. I never did. Why am I forced to? And the gyro module? I can't get useful **** without wasting 11 SP.

Weapons are even worse. While I can avoid ever having to buy a gauss charge up, LBX spread or UAC Jam quirk if I don't want them it's impossible to get the range, cooldown and heat gen quirks without buying laser quirks. Also 2 ammo capacity quirks - for a mech with no ballistic or missile points.

So you have to utterly waste 22 skill points to get useful quirks. It's not possible, literally and mechanically, to get back what you lost in the skill tree with 91SP. To get 84 pts of what would be useful I have to spend 106.

Specifically because you've got to get 22 pts worth of **** you don't need or likely want. That possibly has no actual use on your mech.

With the current system I have to buy 3 variants of the same mech to get Speed Tweak, Cooldown, and Doubled Basics and I have to spend millions of CBills and large amounts of GXP to unlock modules to place on mechs. The old skill and module system had much more waste, especially if you were trying to master heavier mechs because they cost more. I currently have 3 assault mechs that were either loyalty or event rewards that I have not touched because I have no desire to buy the other 6 assault mechs required to master them.

While the new system is not rainbows and unicorns, it is a lot less punishing on newer players because they can buy one mech and totally customize and master it without having to buy any other mechs or grind out large amount of GXP to unlock modules. In the grand scheme of things a couple on nodes in a tree that you don't find opitmal is HUGE step forward than what we currently have.

[Vxheous]

I set up one mech and was tired after that with 115 more to go. I also hate how I cant get my mech to what it is baseline now

[FupDup]

VanillaG, on 28 April 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

With the current system I have to buy 3 variants of the same mech to get Speed Tweak, Cooldown, and Doubled Basics and I have to spend millions of CBills and large amounts of GXP to unlock modules to place on mechs. The old skill and module system had much more waste, especially if you were trying to master heavier mechs because they cost more. I currently have 3 assault mechs that were either loyalty or event rewards that I have not touched because I have no desire to buy the other 6 assault mechs required to master them.

While the new system is not rainbows and unicorns, it is a lot less punishing on newer players because they can buy one mech and totally customize and master it without having to buy any other mechs or grind out large amount of GXP to unlock modules. In the grand scheme of things a couple on nodes in a tree that you don't find opitmal is HUGE step forward than what we currently have.

From a technical standpoint, removal of the rule of three is not directly connected to the skill tree 1.0 as seen on the current PTS. PGI is coincidentally bundling these two features together, but they are not truly dependent on one another.

[Ultimax]

fat4eyes, on 28 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

The 'useless' nodes are there to increase the cost of the more useful nodes. In an alternative system, each level of speed tweak would cost 2 sp instead of one. The pts tree makes you spend 2 sp for speed tweak, but you get some other benefits along the way (in addition to speed tweak). Note the numbers are just an example, it's probably closer to 3 sp per level of speed tweak in the pts. Don't think of the 'useless' nodes as unnecessary spending, but a bonus you get on the way to the more useful nodes.

No you do not get benefits along the way. That requires everything on the trees to have value - this is the major issue with the skill tree.

Some skils are FUNCTIONALLY VALUELESS.

There is a reason why no one ever takes garbage like "hill climb" - and sorry, but my Grasshopper with NOTHING BUT LASER HARDPOINTS very clearly doesn't need missile skills just so I can take more things to benefit lasers.

Instead of taxing with random crap that has zero to low value, they can do like PoE does - and the "tax" nodes give something universally valuable (in this game: +structure, +armor, +accel/deccel, +turn rate, etc).

[WarHippy]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Have you actually seriously tried to use it?

I mean it. Who's actually tried to use it? As though you were seriously trying to build a mech.

So to get the mobility stuff back from the skill tree I have to spend 61 pts to get 50 pts of quirks I need. I don't want to buy the hill climb module. I never did. Why am I forced to? And the gyro module? I can't get useful **** without wasting 11 SP.

Weapons are even worse. While I can avoid ever having to buy a gauss charge up, LBX spread or UAC Jam quirk if I don't want them it's impossible to get the range, cooldown and heat gen quirks without buying laser quirks. Also 2 ammo capacity quirks - for a mech with no ballistic or missile points.

So you have to utterly waste 22 skill points to get useful quirks. It's not possible, literally and mechanically, to get back what you lost in the skill tree with 91SP. To get 84 pts of what would be useful I have to spend 106.

Specifically because you've got to get 22 pts worth of **** you don't need or likely want. That possibly has no actual use on your mech.

With modules at least I can just get what I want.

**** it. I'd rather stick with what we have. I've given this criticism every single time. I'm more than willing to go with **** all whatever on the refund to get there. I want a skill tree ...

but I abso -****ing-lutely hate, despise and would quit playing the game over intentionally stupid stuff like this. If SP cost not just XP but cbills then the intentionally making me throw some away, be unable to build the skill tree in a way I find value in, because some total ***hole somewhere thinks it's funny to make people buy something of absolutely no use at all what so ever to get something of critical use, that's something that will irritate me every single time I go to skill a mech.

Stop it PGI. ******* STOP IT.

Not kidding. Tina, I hope you're reading and collecting this. The next time there's a meeting to discuss the skill tree and changes, please take a dish rag and soak it in water. Twist it up and whenever someone says this is a good idea or tries to justify it, please say 'Well, the general player opinion on that was' and then out of nowhere, WHAP! Right across the face with a wet rag.

I want to love the skill tree, I want to be onboard with the new changes. I'm game with the skill tree being an overall nerf, I'm game with it adding another money sink. Christ, I buy 99% of my mechs with cash. I want to feel good about doing so.

That aspect of the change however doesn't make me feel good. It irritates me greatly. See how the ballistic side of the weapons skill tree has gauss charge up, LBX and UAC jam chance reduction? See how I can get all the useful, general weapon quirks without touching them?

Mobility, operations and the left side of the firepower skill tree need to be the same. If I need laser quirks I'll get them. If I need missile quirks I'll get them. If I decide I want to utterly waste some SP, I'll get hill climb and gyro quirks and arm pitch quirks. However general quirks and useful quirks hidden behind worthless quirks when we're only allowed X quirks on a mech?

That sucks. A lot. Even on the PTS I've run out of patience for having to even look at it while just skilling up 2 of my 140+ mechs.

Kill it with fire.

I hate to say it, but I agree. On a similar note the cool down nodes bother me as well because they apply to all weapons. Under the module system if I was running a mix of lasers and ACs I would likely have a range module for both and a cool down module for the ACs. I preferred it that way because it made heat management a little easier. Under the new skill tree if I want faster cool down on my ACs my lasers end up with it as well.

[MischiefSC]

Shifty McSwift, on 28 April 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Fair enough, I didn't really mind it that much personally.



Is it really an utter waste if you are getting to those skill hidden behind them? An utter waste would be not spending your SP out of spite.

It's an utter waste because it's making you buy something you don't want to get what you do.

I get if they want to reduce the amount of those high value, general quirks -

So just reduce the value of the individual nodes, how much they give you. See the right side of the firepower skill tree? How I can get everything there while not having to buy any Guass/UAC/LBX quirks? I could - if I needed them and wanted them. However I don't have to. Do the same thing with those two ammo quirks - if I'm building a PPC mech and want velocity, cooldown et al I don't need ammo quirks.

Do the same thing with the rest of the tree. The main branch needs to be the universally useful 'general' quirks from which you can branch out to get specialized quirks as needed.

Currently if I want faster cooldown, I put in a cooldown module. If I'd rather have range, I get a range module. As much as I'd love to get behind the skill tree I find the current iteration on the PTS less enjoyable than the current module system - and that irritates me.

Also, having quirked up my 3A Roughneck and my other (ballistic + missile) Roughnecks on the PTS, the 3A is vastly better. Vastly. Why?

Boating only 1 weapon means I could get 15% laser specific bonus quirks. Couldn't do that with ballistic + missile; I could do a bit for both or just rely on ballistics.

With modules I could get a Missile and a Ballistic cooldown module and get my full 'value' out of 2 weapon types on 1 mech.

The more I play with the skill tree the more I see it reducing my options and variety of mechs that will play well, not increasing. The removal of IS weapon quirks makes this even more prevalent.