106 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

But Bish everything changes, IS get their offensive quirks toned down and/or merged into the tree. But alas their player base forget about their ubermench defensive quirks. People have to use a little bit more grey matter to navigate the skill tree.

Then don't forget in theory the game should be a ghost town from all these arm chair activists enacting their protest and PGI would become bankrupt.


Or you know this might....MIGHT be the ball that get's general development rolling. But hey a Clamer can dream right?

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

probably a lot of things you miss while preening over your own sense of awesomeness. Shocker that.

Shocked you didn't dismiss my clearly valid point due to lack of post count. Weren't you going to put me on ignore to help you survive the experience around here? I mean, you clearly don't like being called out for you various hypocrisies even when we actually agree on some cogent point.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lupis Volk, on 28 April 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

But Bish everything changes, IS get their offensive quirks toned down and/or merged into the tree. But alas their player base forget about their ubermench defensive quirks. People have to use a little bit more grey matter to navigate the skill tree.

Then don't forget in theory the game should be a ghost town from all these arm chair activists enacting their protest and PGI would become bankrupt.


Or you know this might....MIGHT be the ball that get's general development rolling. But hey a Clamer can dream right?

Most amazing to me is the apparent density, real or feigned of some of the responses where they totally miss the point of the OP, probably intentionally, and "address" the peripheral matter, the basic mechanics, which are pretty obviously NOT the point.

But hey, MWO Forums... SSDD since essentially 2012 (though some folk were around in 2011)

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

Shocked you didn't dismiss my clearly valid point due to lack of post count. Weren't you going to put me on ignore to help you survive the experience around here? I mean, you clearly don't like being called out for you various hypocrisies even when we actually agree on some cogent point.

Actually, you are on ignore, but that doesn't remove your post if someone quotes it. Sadly. And I still see your little name all over, stalking me like a lost puppy. You really should see someone about your fixation issues.

[Ultimax]

Cathy, on 28 April 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

So exactly how does it make the game better ?

There's more choice.

No not really, there is only one correct path, for a fully optimised mech, lots of options means a totally inexperienced player has more chances of making the wrong choice.

You can take lots of Jump jet skills and gimp your sensors, agility, and protection.

Weapon nodes are extra's because the most important are the agility, the sensors and the durability, how many are going to bother with the utility nodes ?

The tree was supposed to cure the major defects in the lack of roles, help balance the game and the new tech.

It does none of that.

All I want is a clear example and to be shown how this new system makes the game better


quoted for truth

You're right, it doesn't.

It just adds more complexity, more false choices (or "noob traps").

This is what many of us are complaining about.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

Most amazing to me is the apparent density, real or feigned of some of the responses where they totally miss the point of the OP, probably intentionally, and "address" the peripheral matter, the basic mechanics, which are pretty obviously NOT the point.

But hey, MWO Forums... SSDD since essentially 2012 (though some folk were around in 2011)


Actually, you are on ignore, but that doesn't remove your post if someone quotes it. Sadly. And I still see your little name all over, stalking me like a lost puppy. You really should see someone about your fixation issues.

No fixation. I just call out self-important, self-aggrandizing behavior when I see it. Check my posting history, you'll see that consistently.

p.s. don't feel too special. I treat Blood Wolf, Johnny Z in the same vein for their nonsense. You're right up there in that club lately.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 28 April 2017 - 01:35 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

Most amazing to me is the apparent density, real or feigned of some of the responses where they totally miss the point of the OP, probably intentionally, and "address" the peripheral matter, the basic mechanics, which are pretty obviously NOT the point.

But hey, MWO Forums... SSDD since essentially 2012 (though some folk were around in 2011)

I believe the word your looking for is cognitive dissonance or atleast to me that's the best meaning word.

Ultimax, on 28 April 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

You're right, it doesn't.

It just adds more complexity, more false choices (or "noob traps").

This is what some of us are complaining about.

ftfy.

The complaints are waaaay to broad in most cases to say that "X is the reason" well aside from IS quirks offensive quirks being toned down and/or merged with the skill tree. Oh and the myth that Clans are going to be god tier with this Skill tree.

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

this statement alone tells me you really haven't spent much time on the PTS.... because between weight classes and base stats, one size very much does no t fit all, as for instance, on a mech like the Night Gyr poptart, the mobility quirks are realistically of minimal value (not the same as no value, but have minimal impact on it's role efficacy), whereas on a brawler or skirmisher, they are very useful.

And then the quirks that are holding together many a bad mech together are gone? If you look at the PDF a lot of rof bonuses are getting gutted. Even more than that are the loss of mobility quirks, which are a big deal what with torso twisting and it's effect on TTK.

Your example of the night gyr. Do you even play with the thing? It's torso twist speed is abysmal, but with the current skill tree that mech is just gonna get better especially if/when they make engine size mean squat for twisting.

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

No fixation. I just call out self-important, self-aggrandizing behavior when I see it. Check my posting history, you'll see that consistently.

Careful, he knows where the report button is and he's not afraid to use it. I mean sure, he may only have 36 games in this year but the forums are his territory.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Templar Dane, on 28 April 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Careful, he knows where the report button is and he's not afraid to use it. I mean sure, he may only have 36 games in this year but the forums are his territory.

Well it's definitely where he likes to hang out

[Felbombling]

I look at the odd 'utterly useless' node purchased to get really important things further into the tree as incidental knowledge picked up along the way. A cadet training to be a MechWarrior would have at least some knowledge about arm movement or climbing a hill, or maintaining balance. Just because you choose to put a single jump jet on your Mech and strip your arms of armour to slap in an extra heat sink and/or ton of ammo doesn't mean you were tailor made for that one Mech in particular.

I don't agree with the massive spider-web skill tree, either, and have offered an alternative of sorts. That doesn't make me blind to the fact that PGI are trying to slow down the pace of play a little bit through the skill tree. Hey, our Mechs won't be quite as lethal as they are currently, once the patch goes live. Big deal.

[Templar Dane]

StaggerCheck, on 28 April 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

I look at the odd 'utterly useless' node purchased to get really important things further into the tree as incidental knowledge picked up along the way. A cadet training to be a MechWarrior would have at least some knowledge about arm movement or climbing a hill, or maintaining balance. Just because you choose to put a single jump jet on your Mech and strip your arms of armour to slap in an extra heat sink and/or ton of ammo doesn't mean you were tailor made for that one Mech in particular.

I don't agree with the massive spider-web skill tree, either, and have offered an alternative of sorts. That doesn't make me blind to the fact that PGI are trying to slow down the pace of play a little bit through the skill tree. Hey, our Mechs won't be quite as lethal as they are currently, once the patch goes live. Big deal.

The main issue is that some nodes are supremely better than others. Durability and mobility with a splash here and there.

There's also no real reward for having a balanced loadout, so boating is still preferred. My main beef is the nerfing of rof quirks on dps-based mechs. You lose tons of ROF, get a smidge back.........but the alpha builds lose practically nothing and may even gain quite a bit.

[Lukoi Banacek]

StaggerCheck, on 28 April 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

I look at the odd 'utterly useless' node purchased to get really important things further into the tree as incidental knowledge picked up along the way. A cadet training to be a MechWarrior would have at least some knowledge about arm movement or climbing a hill, or maintaining balance. Just because you choose to put a single jump jet on your Mech and strip your arms of armour to slap in an extra heat sink and/or ton of ammo doesn't mean you were tailor made for that one Mech in particular.

I don't agree with the massive spider-web skill tree, either, and have offered an alternative of sorts. That doesn't make me blind to the fact that PGI are trying to slow down the pace of play a little bit through the skill tree. Hey, our Mechs won't be quite as lethal as they are currently, once the patch goes live. Big deal.

We should discriminate between "utterly useless" and one that's just not one I'd choose, but maintains an ancillary benefit.

A mech with no missile capability, shouldn't create a tree where a player has to spend SP's on missile related stuff to get to worthwhile or even ancillary nodes along the way.

One that I don't particularly want, but still gives me a net positive effect, or ancillary benefit however, makes sense as a gatekeeper. I don't particularly WANT Gyro related nodes in my builds, but they are en route to my intended goal nodes and there is some benefit to the mech's performance to having them.

A mech without AMS, shouldn't have to take an AMS node ever.

Overall, I think the "utterly useless" nodes really only exist on the firepower and to a lesser degree the survivability tree. While one could argue the same about the Aux tree ("I don't WANT double coolant shot on this mech")I don't know what you do to avoid releasing the hounds on that one and making it too easy to get to 5xconsumables etc. Maybe look at some other time/duration options and put the doubling nodes further out. So you can open up 5 consumables earlier BUT if you don't have permission to double one, you're still not taking all 5.

[SkyHammyr]

Release it- People will b*itch about it.
Don't release it- People will b*itch not having it.
Put it out as is- People will b*itch about it being half-a$$ed
Delay it to rework it- People will b*itch about the delays.

It doesn't matter, if there's one constant on these forums is that the forum hores will find something to whine about.
Haters gonna hate.
B*itches gonna b*itch.

[Bud Crue]

Lupis Volk, on 28 April 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

Or you know this might....MIGHT be the ball that get's general development rolling. But hey a Clamer can dream right?

So, you're suggesting that this skills tree...the skills tree of all things...might be that eureka moment that for some reason after...what, three years of presumed stagnation in your view...that this of all things will be that which suddenly triggers PGI to, as you put it get "general development rolling".

Okay. That's plausible. I guess.

[4rcs1ne]

Man, people are so divided over this that it's beginning to feel like last year's election again.

[Bishop Steiner]

Matt2496, on 28 April 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Man, people are so divided over this that it's beginning to feel like last year's election again.

and will change just about as much for the average person.... (aka next to nothing)

[Shifty McSwift]

Matt2496, on 28 April 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Man, people are so divided over this that it's beginning to feel like last year's election again.

LoL well then yeah of course the safe bet is to add politics to the discussion too

[Bishop Steiner]

Shifty McSwift, on 28 April 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

LoL well then yeah of course the safe bet is to add politics to the discussion too

Maybe religion, too?

[MischiefSC]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

I always find these threads ironically entertaining.

Complaining about people complaining. Pot, kettle, wanna go to lunch?

Mischief, I didn't realize that your feedback was somehow holding PGI hostage. Apparently, they can't parse through complaints and feedback and make their own business decisions. Are you using explosives, or Doxxing them or something?

Well chosen profanity I guess.

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

this statement alone tells me you really haven't spent much time on the PTS.... because between weight classes and base stats, one size very much does no t fit all, as for instance, on a mech like the Night Gyr poptart, the mobility quirks are realistically of minimal value (not the same as no value, but have minimal impact on it's role efficacy), whereas on a brawler or skirmisher, they are very useful.

Okay, so slightly better JJs on the mech with pretty much the best working JJs in return for already bad mobility made even worse, which would include losing speed tweak and the stuff that is useful to the Gyr out of the Agility tree.

Play with it and you'll see what I mean. You're giving up too much baseline performance for a tiny bit of specialization. You're drastically better off just taking a more specialized mech.

It's not like you can give up a little bit of cooling for a bit of hill climb or some arm mobility for some radar derp. To give up a little bit of hill climb you've got to give up about half of your speed tweak perk too.

That eliminates any value to a tradeoff or customization.

[JC Daxion]

Cathy, on 28 April 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

No not really, there is only one correct path, for a fully optimised mech, lots of options means a totally inexperienced player has more chances of making the wrong choice.

I think you are completely wrong on this one. I have played around with lots of different build ideas to make my mech play differently. I am sure there are some builds that will be very similar, but i also think you can build something different, especially with the way the structure tree now is a much larger sink.


But the whole you must take X, Y and Z to get what you want, even if you don't wan't it on a certain mech is entirely the point.

First it is a balance issue, and to make those that do need that so called under valued skill, not have to spend lots of extra points to get said skills. You are taking a MOVEMENT tree, Not a torso tree, or a twist tree. So it is only natural that all those things are in there.

It's just like firepower, some mechs just run cool, But you can't just skip the cooldown reduction skills, because you are taking FIREPOWER, its part of it.

Yes i get people want the min/max to the moon tree, only what skill i want to massively tweak my mech to the fullest. But IMO that would just be bad for balance over all.

In the tree there are not lots of options, You can really only skip some skills.. But for the most part, you are taking a tree or not.. this isn't that hard to figure out for a newer player. I need better movement, i take movement tree, I need more structure, ill take that, I think my mech runs hot, maybe its operations.. I get hit by LRM's all the time and snuck up on, well sensors are in order.


I think because it is new, and people want to choose everything they want to tweak, and not what the tree is, meant to work for every mech, with some tweaks here and there you can add or subtract in very few places to really customize, but for the most part, if you are going to goto a certain High value skill, you are taking only a couple different paths, Or perhaps both.

I can say for certain my mechs are not all going to be using the same skills.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Well chosen profanity I guess.


Okay, so slightly better JJs on the mech with pretty much the best working JJs in return for already bad mobility made even worse, which would include losing speed tweak and the stuff that is useful to the Gyr out of the Agility tree.

Play with it and you'll see what I mean. You're giving up too much baseline performance for a tiny bit of specialization. You're drastically better off just taking a more specialized mech.

It's not like you can give up a little bit of cooling for a bit of hill climb or some arm mobility for some radar derp. To give up a little bit of hill climb you've got to give up about half of your speed tweak perk too.

That eliminates any value to a tradeoff or customization.

And the flaw with your reasoning is assuming every mech needs all of the speed tweak, or all of the Cool Run, etc.

Newsflash... they don't. And a mech that does want all it's speed tweak? Yup. Gives up something else for it.

Shocker that.

But good to see the status quo return, I suppose. You seem more comfortable being a bittervet, after all.