106 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

And the flaw with your reasoning is assuming every mech needs all of the speed tweak, or all of the Cool Run, etc.

Newsflash... they don't. And a mech that does want all it's speed tweak? Yup. Gives up something else for it.

Shocker that.

But good to see the status quo return, I suppose. You seem more comfortable being a bittervet, after all.

PTS is down so I can't give you the exact values but as an example you can't trade some mobility; you need to give up a big chunk of speed tweak AND cool running just to get a few SP. You can't give up other agility perks - you've got to give up those. Just to get 3-5 pts to put in something else.

Can't trade torso yaw or arm perks. Not even twist perks, none of that. It's speed tweak and cool running PLUS whatever is next up on the list to have a 'tradeoff' from agility. You have more logical ability to adjust those values by reducing the engine for more tonnage and less DHS.

There's like 2 builds where, in theory, you can run single heatsinks to better effect than DHS. They're not good but at least they're not absurd. That doesn't mean SHS and DHS are a 'decision' or 'customization choices'. It means you've got 2 things, one better than the other you can choose from.

I'll put this challenge standing out there - I'll happily actually put my money where my mouth is so to speak. We'll make 2 versions of the same mech. I'll take the one with the best speed, mobility, heat management and weapon performance and someone else can take a significant reduction in those traits to get sensors or JJs or 3 pts of armor extra (that's literally what you'd get) and we'll see which performs better.

That's like saying a mech with seismic module but not even basics unlocked is better than a mastered mech with weapon modules. No, no not really.

That's not a good tradeoff. I'm all for a skill tree, I'm all for it being more or less a blanket nerf and for new cbill costs to skilling up mechs. I think the refund option they put forward is way too generous. However this skill tree is no skill tree; it's just an overly complicated version of what we already have that's just going to make new and bad players worse vs everyone else.

[Rakshasa]

Well, it's gotta be launched if it's going to be properly tested. Things can be tweaked and fixed from there.

Edited by Rakshasa, 28 April 2017 - 04:08 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

Rakshasa, on 28 April 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

Well, it's gotta be launched if it's going to be properly tested. Things can be tweaked and fixed from there. Demanding a bug-free, perfectly balanced day one release is unrealistic.

1. This is PGI everything will have a bug for two.

2. This community seems to have an aversion to giving solid, concise feedback outside of refunding mech packs and calling each other names or when they do muster up feedback all it does is serve the status quo.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 28 April 2017 - 03:33 PM.

[KodiakGW]

Forum moderators: Would it be against forum rules if I were to offer a bet to the OP to see if they would accept a challenge to their hypothesis? I'd like an official response before posting.

Delete this post if it is against forum rules. Thank you.

[GrimRiver]

I say release it now, it can always be updated afterwards.

Too many are acting like the game will be forever broken once an update comes out, it can always be fixed with a quick update.

Beside the PTS has a very very limited playerbase, there is only so much data they can get from it.

Live server offers live data with live results.

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 28 April 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

If it doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things, maybe that should be a sign that it could use some more work instead of being immediately pushed to live and seldom touched again like most of the other things in this game.

The reason it won't really "change much in the grand scheme of things" is because there's so many other things that need fixing too, and a lot of those are way outside the scope of the skill tree.

Toned down quirks and the new skill tree are potentially a step in the right direction though, and if PGI are to be believed about major tech balancing coming at some point later then that will be even better, and the new tech also coming later will be another step if it's properly balanced, and if PGI ever addresses convergence properly that would be another step, and so on.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Lupis Volk, on 28 April 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

1. This is PGI everything will have a bug for two.

2. This community seems to have an aversion to giving solid, concise feedback outside of refunding mech packs and calling each other names or when they do muster up feedback all it does is serve the status quo.

Ironic that you say this and BS "likes it" after calling Mischief a bittervet for having a difference of opinion and offering up said opinion with no apparent name-calling. Always classy.

[KodiakGW]

GrimRiver, on 28 April 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

Beside the PTS has a very very limited playerbase, there is only so much data they can get from it.

That can be easily addressed. Daybreak Games figured out how to increase pop on a test server to get better numbers. Give away something to the main account for participation at specific time and date.
https://forums.daybr...-on-pts.245647/

[Lupis Volk]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Ironic that you say this and BS "likes it" after calling Mischief a bittervet for having a difference of opinion and offering up said opinion with no apparent name-calling. Always classy.

.....

Hmm seems that your hung up on the fact that i don't agree with you and your ilk. Sorry i make my own options and have this thing called free will.

Fun fact last PTS i was in the position as you are in now. Now after some time i've given up have made my peace with Bish.

But please keep sliding into the deep end of hysteria, it's giving me quite the chuckle, nearly as much as those dim witted IS players saying the Skill Tree will end them.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Lupis Volk, on 28 April 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

.....

Hmm seems that your hung up on the fact that i don't agree with you and your ilk. Sorry i make my own options and have this thing called free will.

Fun fact last PTS i was in the position as you are in now. Now after some time i've given up have made my peace with Bish.

But please keep sliding into the deep end of hysteria, it's giving me quite the chuckle, nearly as much as those dim witted IS players saying the Skill Tree will end them.

Why do assume I have any problem with what you're saying, or even that I disagree? I didn't even comment on that. I merely noted that after name-calling someone, BS decided to upvote your comment where you deride that very same behavior.

p.s. calling IS players dimwitted, others deranged etc kinda violates your point that I quoted above, don't ya think?

p.p.s I was actually in the same position last iteration -- you're getting things confused a bit

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 28 April 2017 - 04:18 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

I assume that the "why do it if nothing will change" reasons revolve around what seems to be an attempt to reduce ranged damage a bit and increase toughness - presumable to increase survival time in the seat per match. Makes a mech's role more significant in that you can't hot swap modules to make something great at radar and seismic then a PPC boat then a missile boat. Basically once you dial it in for a certain use in the game you probably won't be respeccing it. It might affect grind time but I can't tell in which direction. It is supposed to make multiweapon builds more feasible by sharing weapon modifiers. Will help me, I tend to build it them that way anyway. Not sure about the min-maxers.

And finally, it might be a means to reduce the min-max design approach by removing some of the rewards for building a laser boat (or whatever) and modules to give them maximum use value.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

probably a lot of things you miss while preening over your own sense of awesomeness. Shocker that.

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

Shocked you didn't dismiss my clearly valid point due to lack of post count. Weren't you going to put me on ignore to help you survive the experience around here? I mean, you clearly don't like being called out for you various hypocrisies even when we actually agree on some cogent point.

I can feel the love between y'all.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Mister Blastman, on 28 April 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

I can feel the love between y'all.

Normally I get along quite well with the guy but last few days the self-entitlement, bullying etc just needs to get called out and toned down man.

[Mister Blastman]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

Normally I get along quite well with the guy but last few days the self-entitlement, bullying etc just needs to get called out and toned down man.

Hee hee. Well it's been entertaining to watch, either way. Gives me some chuckles. I love watching 1v1, guess that's why I'm a boxing and martial arts fan.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

Normally I get along quite well with the guy but last few days the self-entitlement, bullying etc just needs to get called out and toned down man.

Bullying? Do tell. Please?

I'd ask about the entitlement, but your view on this is so damned skewed, it's likely a waste of breath.

Silly me, when I think entitlement, I think a handful of people causing a riot over the SkilL Tree not being done the way their favorite reddit/youtube/forum/fill in the blank poster and getting **** delayed for months, is a hell of a lot more along the lines, but hey, that's just me.

If it's "self entitlement" to speak out against the inmates running the asylum in the hope that it wont happen YET AGAIN, well then, guilty as charged.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 April 2017 - 04:48 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Lukoi Banacek, on 28 April 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

Normally I get along quite well with the guy but last few days the self-entitlement, bullying etc just needs to get called out and toned down man.

"Self entitlement"

Come say that when you're running a roster that's going to be nuked by these changes rather than buffed in relative power. Clanboys have zero room to talk about the quirk nerfs, nearly every voice from the clam side of things is self-interested.

Also, lol "bullying"--you get called out for namecalling and hypocrisy and suddenly you're being bullied. A tiny violin for you, friendo.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alexander of Macedon, on 28 April 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

"Self entitlement"

Come say that when you're running a roster that's going to be nuked by these changes rather than buffed in relative power. Clanboys have zero room to talk about the quirk nerfs, nearly every voice from the clam side of things is self-interested.

Also, lol "bullying"--you get called out for namecalling and hypocrisy and suddenly you're being bullied. A tiny violin for you, friendo.

Well, on that front, the overall nature of the current skill tree, I think he and I actually agree, largely... and um... I'm Inner Sphere thru and thru. I'm also looking big picture though, which is probably why I didn't panic over the skill tree design last time, either.

The rest...eh, whatever. He's entitled (see what I did there?) to whatever opinions he desires. It's just kind of laughable how he's felt the need to trail around sniffing after me these last couple days then talks about my "issues".

Is the skill tree going to need adjustments, some possibly large? YUP.

It's also going to be a hell of a lot easier to guage without whackout insano quirks clouding data to begin with.

But make no mistake, I am under no delusion that we will get balance without having quirks revisited....after the fact.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I'm definitely "entitled" to my opinion, thanks.

Alex, to clarify for you, I'm not referring to him bullying me. As far as I know he's not called me out for hypocrisy or namecalling. So if you were referring to me with the violin, I think you've missed a bit. What I am doing however is calling him out for his activity on these forums.

He complains and name calls pretty consistently when folks disagree with him lately, he asks who are others to "moderate the forums" or whatever, and then starts a thread like this (moderating the forums lol). Fact is, he doesn't like getting called out about it, wants to hide behind his family's personal tragedy like it somehow excuses his behavior (yep, he used that exact line on someone who countered him on an issue where he was bemoaning someone's post count/account newness when he got called for how few games he's played of late). The list goes on and on.

I don't name call, I don't attack people with differing opinions (well, I really try to restrain myself lol, we all make mistakes). I've actually argued pretty directly with Mischief, Vandal and several others on here about the tree and no drama. Just Bishop having drama. Can't help it we're all offering discussion on the same threads, but somehow in his mind, that's someone "following" him.

Truth is, I've been pretty consistent about calling folks out for being overt forum-jerks in the past, will continue to do so. That he's fallen into that pattern, is on him.

As to the PTS -- I've mentioned much of the same challenges, tried to show people where it's valuable and where they can take advantage of the GSP/module since PGI has to be fair, kinda goofed up for a significant segment of the playerbase and routinely made it clear that underperforming mechs (especially IS) are at risk of having hte performance gap widened by a significant margin. There's no "Clan" agenda on my end. I play both types of mechs regularly/daily and would like parity to exist so that perhaps Faction Play can emerge as a "thing" again. Plus, I enjoy seeing a good mix of mechs in leagues like MRBC. So, don't think cuz we're dishing back and forth it's because we disagree on the fundamentals of the game at all. That's not it in the slightest.

[Alteran]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 April 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

Bullying? Do tell. Please?

I'd ask about the entitlement, but your view on this is so damned skewed, it's likely a waste of breath.

Silly me, when I think entitlement, I think a handful of people causing a riot over the SkilL Tree not being done the way their favorite reddit/youtube/forum/fill in the blank poster and getting **** delayed for months, is a hell of a lot more along the lines, but hey, that's just me.

If it's "self entitlement" to speak out against the inmates running the asylum in the hope that it wont happen YET AGAIN, well then, guilty as charged.

Bishop, that right there is what Lukoi is talking about. Try and paint it any way you want, but it is what it is.

As for the overall topic and PTS, can't really stand it much at all. In fact, I'd rather PGI get rid of both systems altogether and allow for modules only. Giving magic bonuses in any kind of skill system just creates the same issues that too many of us have tried to avoid - the meta.

It's too late for that though and with this change will see exactly what has been talked about in this thread and the many others previously - people either sticking with MWO or leaving. PGI trying to tie new weapon systems and Mechs to this is just them using BS to try and sell it. It's not working.

The real measure in all this, will be where MWO sits come late summer. Personally, I log in for the odd event here and there, but really not much more.

[Ted Wayz]

You are right, this game has never seen max exodus based on PGIs bad decision making after the playerbase asked them not to make them.

Right.

Not saying this is what will happen now, but it wouldn't be unprecedented.

And basing things on fact instead of opinion...it is a thing.